When did people start holding hands in Catholic churches?

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Aramis, why would it be different in ANCHORAGE than the rest of the state or US? Also, I’ve never heard of it being our Jewish inheritance.
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Why? Because if it’s not defined in the GIRM, it is the Local Ordinary’s, that is, the Local Bishop’s, discretion. Your bishop may feel differently about which postures are appropriate.

As to “Jewish Inheritance,” that is generally (in the theological materials I’ve read) understood to mean: those Traditions, Symbols, and Scriptures which the church inherited because the initial leadership were all Jews.

Since the posture was used by Jews in certain ritual prayers, and was used (based upon pictorial evidence in decorations as early as the third century, and IIRC a couple of second century ones, the Orantes/Orans posture is part of that body of tradition handed down from jewish sources to the Catholic church.
 
Aramis said:
Why? Because if it’s not defined in the GIRM, it is the Local Ordinary’s, that is, the Local Bishop’s, discretion. Your bishop may feel differently about which postures are appropriate.

As to “Jewish Inheritance,” that is generally (in the theological materials I’ve read) understood to mean: those Traditions, Symbols, and Scriptures which the church inherited because the initial leadership were all Jews.

Since the posture was used by Jews in certain ritual prayers, and was used (based upon pictorial evidence in decorations as early as the third century, and IIRC a couple of second century ones, the Orantes/Orans posture is part of that body of tradition handed down from jewish sources to the Catholic church.
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Actually that is not correct. What a bishop plans to introduce must have a recognitio from Rome. Not even a conference of bishops can introduce anything within the Mass without prior approval.

By the way----using the orans by the laity during the Our Father—is mimicking the priest. It is not a posture for the laity.
 
Walking_Home said:
Actually that is not correct. What a bishop plans to introduce must have a recognitio from Rome. Not even a conference of bishops can introduce anything within the Mass without prior approval.

By the way----using the orans by the laity during the Our Father—is mimicking the priest. It is not a posture for the laity.
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As it’s been quoted by others, the GIRM says that posture is left to the local ordinary.

I can’t find the GIRM on-line at Vatican.VA so… I can’t verify that, other than I’ve heard it from the Vicar General of the Archdiocese of Anchorage, from multiple posters here, from Archbishop Hurley, and from several books on the liturgy.

Only certain postural elements are in the GIRM, and MANY of those are only defined for the priest, according to these same sources.
 
Aramis said:
As it’s been quoted by others, the GIRM says that posture is left to the local ordinary.

I can’t find the GIRM on-line at Vatican.VA so… I can’t verify that, other than I’ve heard it from the Vicar General of the Archdiocese of Anchorage, from multiple posters here, from Archbishop Hurley, and from several books on the liturgy.

Only certain postural elements are in the GIRM, and MANY of those are only defined for the priest, according to these same sources.
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Here ya go. GIRM
 
Aramis said:
As it’s been quoted by others, the GIRM says that posture is left to the local ordinary.

I can’t find the GIRM on-line at Vatican.VA so… I can’t verify that, other than I’ve heard it from the Vicar General of the Archdiocese of Anchorage, from multiple posters here, from Archbishop Hurley, and from several books on the liturgy.

Only certain postural elements are in the GIRM, and MANY of those are only defined for the priest, according to these same sources.
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The following is from the Code of Canon Law. I have not found were the GIRM specifies the orans for the laity during the Our Father. The orans is an action proper to the priest.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P38.HTM

Can. 907 In the eucharistic celebration deacons and lay persons are not permitted to offer prayers, especially the eucharistic prayer, or to perform actions which are proper to the celebrating priest.
 
Walking_Home said:
The following is from the Code of Canon Law. I have not found were the GIRM specifies the orans for the laity during the Our Father. The orans is an action proper to the priest.
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The Code of Canon Law does not specify that the orans is an action proper to the priest.
 
“When did people start holding hands in Catholic churches?”

If I’m next to a man at Mass, I will ***not ***hold his hand. :eek:
 
I am glad to see all the well informed replies here on this web site. It gives me hope that the Roman Catholic faith will survive the non-sense that has been going on since Vatican II. Not that Vatican II was bad, but it opened the doors for false interpretations and thus false teachings.

Now to your point. PARAMEDICGIRL’s answer hit the nail on the head! The "Orans” position is reserved for the Priest as “persona Christi”. In the person of Christ. It is not for those in the congregation, even those trying to put themselves on the same level as the Priest.

Paramedicgirl’s pastor is again correct. The unity of the congregation is expressed at the Eucharist. When we receive Jesus. However, it is understandable why the congregation holds hands at the Our Father. That is because, unfortunately, as the secular papers tell us 70% of “practicing” Catholics DONOT believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. So holding hands makes sense to them.

Matt
 
archangel63 said:
I will have to admit there were many years there that I did not go to Church at all. I think my parents stopped making me go after I was confirmed. As kids we didn’t like being dragged to Church. As a little boy I wanted to be home playing. Oh, I went to mass on Easter and Christmas (I was a Holiday Catholic). But a couple years there I missed. My life took me elsewhere and I was not attending.

I remember when I had come back they had changed the melodies of some of the singing prayers. I really missed the way they went when I was a boy. I think they’ve changed them a couple times since. I’m 43, so I remember the folk masses back in the late 1960’s. I liked that when I was a kid.

But the one thing I do not ever remember seeing at a Catholic mass when I was growing up was people holding their arms out extended like Jesus would stand in a painting? And I also don’t remember when groups of people started holding hands during the Our Father? I remember when I first started seeing this it reminded me of Protestant church services on TV. When did this pop up in the Catholic Church? Just curious?
:confused:
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a folk mass? what is that? :confused: holding hands during the Our Father is a little to protestant for me. i never once saw it in Church growing up, and i don’t care to now.
 
I’m a germaphob and I HATE holding hands with people I don’t know. So I don’t do it…I get so concerned about the germs on my hands I lose concentration…and that’s not right.
 
Denae said:
I’m a germaphob and I HATE holding hands with people I don’t know. So I don’t do it…I get so concerned about the germs on my hands I lose concentration…and that’s not right.
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You could always bring a pair of disposable latex gloves. I could send ya some.
 
AquinaSavio said:
Tell me about it…however, he claims that Archbishop Chaput himself supports the Orans position (for the laity). Don’t know if that’s true or not.
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I would love any citations to this effect. Many of our local parishes hand-holding is common (even though a high % of Denver parishes are considered ‘conservative’) and I am sure he is working hard at educating his priests and ccd teachers against it. 👍
 
PauloFreire2 said:
“When did people start holding hands in Catholic churches?”

If I’m next to a man at Mass, I will ***not ***hold his hand. :eek:
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I believe that the custom of hand-holding is representative of the ‘holy kiss’ St. Paul speaks of. Would you rather kiss a man twice on the cheek? When in Rome? 👍
 
GIRM 81:
The Lord’s Prayer
  1. In the Lord’s Prayer a petition is made for daily food, which for Christians means preeminently the eucharistic bread, and also for purification from sin, so that what is holy may, in fact, be given to those who are holy. The priest says the invitation to the prayer, and all the faithful say it with him; the priest alone adds the embolism, which the people conclude with a doxology. The embolism, enlarging upon the last petition of the Lord’s Prayer itself, begs deliverance from the power of evil for the entire community of the faithful.
The invitation, the Prayer itself, the embolism, and the doxology by which the people conclude these things are sung or said aloud.
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Makes no mention of posture.
GIRM Chapter IX 387-390:
  1. The Diocesan Bishop, who is to be regarded as the high priest of his flock, and from whom the life in Christ of the faithful under his care in a certain sense derives and upon whom it depends,148 must promote, regulate, and be vigilant over the liturgical life in his diocese. It is to him that in this Instruction is entrusted the regulating of the discipline of concelebration (cf. above, nos. 202, 374) and the establishing of norms regarding the function of serving the priest at the altar (cf. above, no. 107), the distribution of Holy Communion under both kinds (cf. above, no. 283), and the construction and ordering of churches (cf. above, no. 291). With him lies responsibility above all for fostering the spirit of the Sacred Liturgy in the priests, deacons, and faithful.
  2. The adaptations spoken of below that call for a wider degree of coordination are to be decided, in accord with the norm of law, by the Conference of Bishops.
  3. It is the competence of the Conferences of Bishops in the first place to prepare and approve an edition of this Roman Missal in the authorized vernacular languages, for use in the regions under their care, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See.149
The Roman Missal, whether in Latin or in lawfully approved vernacular translations, is to be published in its entirety.
  1. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. These adaptations include
Code: 
* The gestures and posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43 above);
* The gestures of veneration toward the altar and the Book of the Gospels (cf. no. 273 above);
* The texts of the chants at the entrance, at the presentation of the gifts, and at Communion (cf. nos. 48, 74, 87 above);
* The readings from Sacred Scripture to be used in special circumstances (cf. no. 362 above);
* The form of the gesture of peace (cf. no. 82 above);
* The manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283 above);
* The materials for the altar and sacred furnishings, especially the sacred vessels, and also the materials, form, and color of the liturgical vestments (cf. nos. 301, 326, 329, 339, 342-346 above).
Directories or pastoral instructions that the Conferences of Bishops judge useful may, with the prior recognitio of the Apostolic See, be included in the Roman Missal at an appropriate place.
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The GIRM makes the posture of the layity throughout the mass EXPLICITLY the local ordinary’s province. So, if your bishop says the Orantes is appropriate, it is appropriate. If your bishop says no, then no.

So, quit saying it’s not appropriate over all. It’s by the rules the Bishop’s decision, not a universal. The Bishop could even declare the correct posture to be prostrate…
 
Aramis said:
…it’s not appropriate over all. It’s by the rules the Bishop’s decision, not a universal. The Bishop could even declare the correct posture to be prostrate…
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Out of curiosity, this begs the question, “Does anyone know of a local ordinary who has actually decided that the Orantes posture is appropriate? Has a diocese announced that this is sanctioned, directed, and/or encouraged?”
 
Aramis said:
Makes no mention of posture.

The GIRM makes the posture of the layity throughout the mass EXPLICITLY the local ordinary’s province. So, if your bishop says the Orantes is appropriate, it is appropriate. If your bishop says no, then no.

So, quit saying it’s not appropriate over all. It’s by the rules the Bishop’s decision, not a universal. The Bishop could even declare the correct posture to be prostrate…
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There is nothing in the information you provided that says —once the GIRM has been approved by Rome—a bishop can continue to make changes or additons to what has already been approved. The bishops have been warned about experimenting with the liturgy since the 70’s.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

[16.] “It pertains to the Apostolic See to regulate the Sacred Liturgy of the universal Church, to publish the liturgical books and to grant the recognitio for their translation into vernacular languages, as well as to ensure that the liturgical regulations, especially those governing the celebration of the most exalted celebration of the Sacrifice of the Mass, are everywhere faithfully observed”.[36]

[27.] As early as the year 1970, the Apostolic See announced the cessation of all experimentation as regards the celebration of Holy Mass[62] and reiterated the same in 1988.[63] Accordingly, individual Bishops and their Conferences do not have the faculty to permit experimentation with liturgical texts or the other matters that are prescribed in the liturgical books. In order to carry out experimentation of this kind in the future, the permission of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments is required. It must be in writing, and it is to be requested by the Conference of Bishops. In fact, it will not be granted without serious reason. As regards projects of inculturation in liturgical matters, the particular norms that have been established are strictly and comprehensively to be observed.[64]

[28.] All liturgical norms that a Conference of Bishops will have established for its territory in accordance with the law are to be submitted to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments for the recognitio, without which they lack any binding force.65]
 
Aramis said:
Makes no mention of posture.
  1. It is the competence of the Conferences of Bishops in the first place to prepare and approve an edition of this Roman Missal in the authorized vernacular languages, for use in the regions under their care, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See.149
The Roman Missal, whether in Latin or in lawfully approved vernacular translations, is to be published in its entirety.
  1. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. These adaptations include
The GIRM makes the posture of the layity throughout the mass EXPLICITLY the local ordinary’s province. So, if your bishop says the Orantes is appropriate, it is appropriate. If your bishop says no, then no.

So, quit saying it’s not appropriate over all. It’s by the rules the Bishop’s decision, not a universal. The Bishop could even declare the correct posture to be prostrate…
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You have shot your own foot. The above highlight statements state that any adaptations “must” receive a recognitio from Rome. Since the GIRM does not direct the laity to perform the orans—it is an action that has not been approved by Rome. Any adaptations must have a recognitio otherwise they are illicit.
 
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