When were confederate monuments erected and why?

Status
Not open for further replies.
GKC said:
That, apparently, would be either a mug, or, possibly a book.

Oh. Wait.You were referring to a Jackson quote. The actual one is given above, but nothing wrong with that one, either

I’m looking for a mug with the inscription “Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn”.
Click to expand...
I see the Jackson one, nice.

Here is the link for your mug

redbubble.com/people/satanismydad/works/15611053-phnglui-mglwnafh-cthulhu-rlyeh-wgahnagl-fhtagn?p=mug&style=standard&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=g.pla+notset&country_code=US&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIor6FkNrw1QIVwo-zCh1Tag6lEAYYASABEgLjWvD_BwE
 
Ridgerunner said:
As an indictment of the dead this fails. The combatants are all dead, and beyond the reach of those who hate them.

As an insult to the millions of people descended from Confederate combatants and civilian casualties, it succeeds in part and fails in part. It succeeds in being nasty. It fails in changing any southerner’s mind about the combatants. And it fails with the majority of the American people, who don’t condone the desecration.

As an indicator of the mean-spiritedness of some on the left, it succeeds entirely. It also succeeds in wrongly painting all liberals as desecrators and haters.
Click to expand...
Nonsense. They were traitors. Pure and simple.

Then, they and their descendants through the Jim Crow laws deliberately and systematically took and away the civil rights of black people and wrapped themselves in the Bible. Then they fought tooth and nail to make sure black people were denied their rights for generations.

You should be ashamed of yourself for defending them and their indefensible actions.
 
johnnykins said:
Nonsense. They were traitors. Pure and simple.

Then, they and their descendants through the Jim Crow laws deliberately and systematically took and away the civil rights of black people and wrapped themselves in the Bible. Then they fought tooth and nail to make sure black people were denied their rights for generations.

You should be ashamed of yourself for defending them and their indefensible actions.
Click to expand...
Whether or not they were traitors is a separate issue from slavery or Jim Crow, or women’s suffrage for that matter.
 
randomuser said:
I did answer, and I will again. All of our Vietnam veterans, including John McCain (who then-candidate Trump attacked by name because he was POW), are heroes and patriots who fought for - not against - U.S. interests. Shame on anyone who would compare our heroic Vietnam veterans to CSA traitors.

And again, I will point out that Maya Lin (an Asian artist) designed the Wall in Washington, D.C., and she faced a lot of opposition - not surprisingly, from CSA types - to get that wall built for our Vietnam veterans.

I don’t think Senator McCain, a true patriot and statesman, ever got an apology from Trump for attacking him. Please answer that, runningdude. Do you agree with attacking Vietnam POW’s? It doesn’t get any more un-American and un-patriotic than that.

To recap:

Our Vietnam veterans - all heroes - were pro-America
The CSA losers - no heroes - were anti-America
Click to expand...
I support 110% our Vietnam Veterans, and believe that Donald Trump revealed himself to to be an ugly, ugly soul when he attacked Senator McCain as a “Loser”.

My point is that you cannot have it both ways. The North did horrible things to the South. While justly prevoked, we burned down cities and villages and slaughtered 100,000 citizens. We honor then as heros. While justly provoked, in Vietnam, we burned countless villages and acres of jungle, and slaughtered millions of Vietnamese. We lost, and we honor them as heros.

Both sides of the civil war did awful things. That anger remained decades later, remains today. Robert E. Lee was punished within his life time. He was stripped of citizenship, and his assets seized. Yet, in his lifetime, Union soldiers and generals thought him to be an honorable man. His surrender at Appotomax single handedly prevented the United States of America from descending into the perpetual guerrilla warfair that is a blight on nations elsewhere in the Americas, and throughout the world.

Today, we are debating the removal of statues built to honor the leaders that shaped the nation it is today. They are complex, flawed figures. Even John McCain is a complex, flawed figure. He refused early release and special treatment, marking him a hero, but repeatedly cheated on his wife, divorced her, now lives in sin with a second wife. His heroism does not excuse his flaws. His flaws niether detract from his heroic deeds.

If in 40 years, activists wish to demolish statues of Senator McCain…

Even if we have come reject the values that motivated the erection of the Civil War Monuments, those values are still part of our history. I would rather we have these painful reminders, less we forget that we reject them, and forget that we killed 600,000 of our own in the process.
 
johnnykins said:
Nonsense. They were traitors. Pure and simple.

Then, they and their descendants through the Jim Crow laws deliberately and systematically took and away the civil rights of black people and wrapped themselves in the Bible. Then they fought tooth and nail to make sure black people were denied their rights for generations.

You should be ashamed of yourself for defending them and their indefensible actions.
Click to expand...
I do not accept your rash judgment of me for defending Jim Crow or taking away any civil rights of black people, or condoning slavery for that matter, because I did none of those things.
 
My Irish grandmother absolutely despised the British and the Orangemen as well. Despised them, and was quick to say it. Her people were from County Mayo and half of them were exclusively Gaelic-speaking when they came here. Her husband, my Irish grandfather’s people were from what was then “Queen’s County”, which I believe is now County Leix (I have seen it spelled “Louth” or Laois. Don’t know how to pronounce it.) They were English speakers and only knew a prayer or two in Gaelic.

The ones from County Mayo had been farmers. Got starved out in the famine and were bitter about it; the English land ownership and all that. The ones from County Leix had been merchants and came here with not a lot of money in their pockets, but enough to buy some land here. They were “economic refugees” too because the whole economy was bad, but their suffering had been nothing like that of the others. They weren’t too fond of the English, largely because of religious discrimination, but they didn’t outright hate them. And they had to admit one thing. When they got here, they had an advantage over a lot of other immigrants in being not only fluent English-speakers, but with a very strong and artful command of the language; both spoken and written. They owed the English for that, and knew it. They didn’t even suffer for their name, as it was Norman-Irish and Americans didn’t think of it as Irish.

Small things can mean a lot.
 
OK. That sounds great. I’ll wait for you to…Wait a minute. Earth 1794? I’m missing something. THE DOOM THAT CAME TO GOTHAM, sure, but …Must have quit reading comics too soon.
 
Ridgerunner said:
When they got here, they had an advantage over a lot of other immigrants in being not only fluent English-speakers, but with a very strong and artful command of the language; both spoken and written.
Click to expand...
Same here (although my grandparents’ names began with “O’” and “Mc,” so there was no disguising their Irish origins). All of them spoke English. They arrived in New York and, as soon as he was eligible, my paternal grandfather took the Fire Department exam, as so many Irish immigrants did. On my mother’s side, although my grandfather did not enter the civil service, a couple of his brothers did, and became police officers.

Very typical Irish immigrant story. Speaking English put them a generation ahead of immigrants from other countries.

I never heard any of them express any hatred of the British, though. I think they were probably glad to leave all that behind.
 
One thing to remember is that htere was a lot of death and destruction all throughout the South during the Civil War. Years later when they were more established, maiy people wanted to have memorials for their brothers, sons, and husbands who had died during this war. I think that it is unfair to the majority of teh people that the symbols of teh Confederacy appear to have been hijacked for the purposes of a few people whose extremist ideas don’t represent the majority of the people who they are trying to memorailize. .
 
LeafByNiggle said:
There existed slaves in the North. A few of them. But the economy of the North was not nearly so dependent on slave labor as the plantations of South. The number of slaves in the North was just not comparable.
.
Click to expand...
Hi Leaf,
Could you be hinting that the difference between north and south regarding slavery was one of economic opportunity? That, given terrain which supported the use of larger numbers of slaves, the north might have made a similar level of commitment to the peculiar institution?
 
exnihilo said:
Lee and Jackson were very quotable men.

Lee in corresponding to the Catholic Lord Acton wrote:

Despotic at home and aggressive abroad captures what we got. The same happened in Germany and Italy with consolidation of power.

You may be right. But the side waging war was the Union. They are the ones who brought the war. Any treason was to the concept of the rights of men to freely form their government.
Click to expand...
How was the Union at fault for waging war? Did the Union conspire to have Davis order Fort Sumter captured?

Calls for war started after the CSA fired on that Fort.
 
The, it was a different time, argument is kind of a moral cop out. Isn’t it?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top