Where are all the large Catholic families?

[Joannm]

I wouldn’t read too much into the portable defibulators relating to an aging congregration. Our parish is relatively young. For the last four weeks we have had a blurb in the bulletin asking if anyone could get a deal on portable defibulators. The parish was required to have two of them on hand due to “a recent safety evaluation.”

I suspect from the safety evaluation is from the insurance company.

Schools are also required to have them, especially in gyms. A good number of children have died from heart attacks while playing sports because the ambulance got there too late. I have been trained on the portable defibs as part of CPR certification and were taught that they are used a lot on young people.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

What’s SSPX, EF, TML etc…??

SSPX= Society of St. Pius the X (tenth)
EF= Extraordinary Form
TLM= Traditional Latin Mass

 

[Joe_5859]

Complex issues rarely lend themselves to simplistic explanation. It’s entirely true that the majority of catholics in child bearing years today neither know nor car about church teaching on human sexuality and the inseperable link God created among sex, marriage and babies. (I say inseparable not because you can’t separate them, but because you can’t separate them without doing significant damage to all three in the process)

But there are other issues involved that should lead level headed catholics to avoid chucking rocks at smaller families. Poor fiscal policies at universities have now created a situation where affording an bachelor’s education takes a decade to pay off. Bloated government mismangement of public schools soaks up a massive amount of money from families in taxes and gives back a school system that seems intended to impart a secular humanist philosophy in kids (our kids catholic school is unusually generous for our area, but 5 kids would still run you $10,000 a year there). Housing costs have skyrocketed. The necessities of living in America these days outside the most urban of areas requires a car. These economic burdens are real and play a significant role in making parents wonder if they can provide for more. In some cases, that fear is rationalizing (like the couples with late model cars, annual vacations and big entertainment budgets). In other cases, money is brutally tight even when the frills have been weeded out.

Traditional catholics are also sometimes guilty of distorting the message of Humanae Vitae. In post after post I hear people claim that only a “grave reason” is valid for using NFP to avoid. Read HV again. It’s “serious reason.” That’s an order of magnitude difference in catholic vocabulary. The ability to afford decent education, shelter and health care ARE serious reasons to reflect. God doesn’t command people to have as many kids as possible. His gift of sexuality requires us to recognize the link between intimacy and life and to remain open to that. The genius of NFP is that even during trying to avoid times, the user has his face pushed into the truth and meaning of human sexuality constantly. It never becomes divorced from babies in very concept. This is fundamentally why NFP isn’t the same as condoms (for example).

I live in between worlds, having been married 12 years and with three kids. In the secular world, that’s actually enough to get us some rude comments from the anti-life crowd. It also gets us sideways looks from the “quiver full” (for lack of a better term) crowd. Do we wonder sometimes about our ‘serious reason?’ Of course! If you don’t, something’s wrong. But IMO there is no need to interrogate NFP users about their allegedly serious reason. The interrogation is already built into the system. God’s design for human sexuality is subtle that way. It confronts you without making you defensive. Stick with the still small voice. Worked on me, that’s how we got three (so far)…

Thank you for taking the time to read my mind and post exactly what I was thinking.

There is a very real temptation when we encounter those who appear to be judging us to return the favor (or maybe that’s just me). We want to be careful not to give the society more ammunition to look down upon larger families.

My parish has plenty of large families, which I enjoy seeing. I’m still working on upping my numbers.

 

[PJM]

=Dragonslayer;8460958]Now, my wife and I have 8 children and in our (very traditional) parish that is about the average. For every family with less than 8 children there is one with more than 8. There’s even a few with 10, 11, 12 +etc.

(And yes I’m talking about a SSPX parish, but I really don’t want to start another SSPX fight)

However, outside the parish when people ask about my family they are amazed, some even horrified, at the number of children we have, even Catholics. And to be honest I am a bit surprised by the reaction from other Catholics. Quite often it is “well I’m a Catholic too but my 2, or 3, children are more than enough for me”. Often they will tell me that they are one of 5 or 6 siblings themselves, or their parents were one of 8 or 9 siblings, but they only have the one child, or 2, or 3.

So, where are all the traditionally large Catholic families? What is happening with the “modern” Catholic family? Have they disobeyed the Church’s teachings on contraception? Is there a reluctance to accept God’s will when it comes to the number of children He gives us? Or have they just become super experts on natural family planning?

I’ve been curious about this for awhile now. In a way I feel it is a bit sad as it seems yet another way that Catholics are losing their identity.

Any thoughts or comments, or am I mostly mistaken? How are things where you live?

IT’S EVEN WORSE THAN THAT. WE ARE LOSING FAITH. FAITH In GOD AND FAITH IN OURSELVES AND FAITH IN OUR GOVERNMENT.

Contraception, abortion, are seen even by many “catholics” as RIGHTS. That my friend is the real scarry part.

THANK you and all those who have large families.

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[anp1215]

The contraception rate in the Church is very high, so that is definitely the big reason. However, we should all be careful at how we look at our fellow parishioners. We should always assume the positive. Never assume because someone has only 1 or 2 children that they are contracepting.

 

[paperwight66]

Right.
Fellow parishioners and even the priest have asked them if they are using contraception, etc…

I really can’t believe how people can be so rude. I’m especially shocked at the priest. Surely his pastoral experience should have made him aware that behind a smiling face is often a tragedy, and so not taken the chance of deeply wounding someone by such an intrusive remark.

If it had been me, I would seriously consider changing my parish.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Totally agree that the size of families should be between the couples and God, and absolutely no level of judgment should occur against our fellow Catholics. Afterall, God can decide to give 1 child or 10, or even no children if that is His will.

The purpose of this thread was not to snear at small families, but to obtain some thoughts and opinions on what is happening out there. And really, the posts so far have been excellent.

I find it interesting that small families as well as large families receive judgement type comments about the size of their family. As a dad of a large family I have heard and received many comments about the size of my family, but I can honestly say I haven’t heard anything directed at small families. I can only speak about my local area obviously.

But I do tend to agree with some posters that think that a fair percentage of the church do not accept God’s will in this and willfully limit the number of children they have, for less than noble reasons. What is the percentage I wonder? Would it be in the majority? I don’t know.

And then, there is another group of Catholics that I am aware of that actively promote contraception, and even abortion, amongst Catholics. But thankfully I believe these would represent only a very small percentage of the church I think.

And, yes True Light, I have noticed the majority of mums of big families look fabulous. Perhaps running after all the kids and refereeing all the battles keep them young. But, you know what, I heard once that the face reflects the soul, so I would like to think all Catholics look great and they just reflect their spritual happiness.

 

[KCT]

So, where are all the traditionally large Catholic families?

Around here? They’re in the homeschool groups.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Around here? They’re in the homeschool groups.

Yeah, I can understand that. We are very lucky where we are as our kids go to a traditional catholic school, and a lot of families moved to this area just for the school. But before the move a lot of them homeschooled. Why? Possibly a combination of being labeled “weirdos” that other posters have touched on, and also the decline in the quality of true Catholic education.

 

[Melchior_1]

Yeah, I can understand that. We are very lucky where we are as our kids go to a traditional catholic school, and a lot of families moved to this area just for the school. But before the move a lot of them homeschooled. Why? Possibly a combination of being labeled “weirdos” that other posters have touched on, and also the decline in the quality of true Catholic education.

The bolded. 1000% the bolded. That’s not a typo, I literally mean one thousand percent. If Catholic education in Ontario high schools was even 50% better than what it currently, there wouldn’t be such a pressing need for youth ministry in parishes right now. I’ve been helping out at the Life Teen at my parish for eight years now, and the stories the kids say about what happens in the school astonishes me (and not in a good way).

We had an “Ask the Priest” night last year, done up in a late night talk show format (with me as the “host” facilitating the discussions). One of the kids. and this is an exact quote, said “my geography teacher said that religion and science aren’t compatible, and they can’t exist together, and the Church is anti-science”.

My response; “Sorry Father, I want to address this first. The Catholic Church has been at the forefront of scientific discovery. The Vatican has some of the world’s leading scientific and medical researchers. Several inventions and medical procedures we have today were found by great Catholic minds. People point towards the Galileo incident, but that was more of a misunderstanding than anything else. Rome has a space telescope in Arizona to look at the stars, it’s run by Jesuits. You know, the same Jesuits who helped educate some of the greatest scientific minds the world have seen and some of the best schools in the USA. So (name withheld), you go back to your geography teacher and tell him that he should go back to reading an atlas staring at maps of Russia and leave the theological and philosophical teaching to Catechists like me and the two clergymen to my right”.

I shouldn’t have to correct teachers like that, but I have been for eight years. And it doesn’t look like I’ll be stopping anytime soon.

 

[Usige]

Possibly a combination of being labeled “weirdos” that other posters have touched on, and also the decline in the quality of true Catholic education.

Well I’ll agree on that last part. Many (if not all) the Catholic schools in our area boast of their academic rigor and give a small blurb to the effect of “oh, and by the way we are Catholic.”

For many homeschoolers in our diocese it becomes a matter of cost. The average Catholic K-8 is $4800 per student and high school runs somewhere between 10 and 11 thousand. If you have 2 in high school and 4 in elementary you would be looking at $40k - $45k per year. That also assumes that they would take all your kids. Two of mine have learning disabilities and were “unfit” for the academic rigors of the schools. Solution? Homeschooling.

Back to the original question. I think for many getting married later is part of smaller families, but only a small part. My wife and I teach NFP and marriage prep for the local OF parish. About 70% of our couples say they are learning NFP because they “have to” to get married. Here are some of the “serious reasons” given for delaying having kids:

• We want to get to know each other before taking on the burden of children. (couple had been dating for 6 years and living together for 4 years)
• We can’t afford children right now. (said after telling us they had compromised to not have an interior decorator for all their house, “just the public areas”)
• Children are expensive. How can we afford trips three week trips to Europe with a bunch of kids?
• We are too old to start a big family (couple was 30 and 32 - they were floored when they learned that we had 3 after I turned 35 and planned on having more)

We do work with a number of women that are struggling to have children, but for every one of those we have 4 or 5 that are/were contracepting. Some are honest enough to just tell us they plan on using the pill once they’re married, most others just go through the motions.

I often laugh when people find out we are pregnant with our 5th child. Invariably the first question is “Are you Mormon?” and when I say nope “Catholic” they proceed to proceed to tell me that we don’t need to go crazy. One nice Catholic lady told us “The church is okay if you just have one or two, shows you made the effort.”

Long and short I do think there is a cultural component to it, even if that’s not the only reason.

 

[silicasandra]

I just want to throw ecological breastfeeding into the mix. It shouldn’t be used just to postpone fertility (that would be a contraceptive mentality), but prolonged breastfeeding is good for babies (and moms! ) and can space children several years apart without any deliberate effort on the couple’s part to postpone pregnancy.

The Duggar family would not become the norm if everyone quit using ABC or any charting-based NFP methods (to avoid). Most families would probably be somewhere in the 4-8 range if they married young and had no extraordinary health problems.

 

[Windmill]

In short, mainstream parishes have everyone: the poorly catechized and the well-catechized. Most people I’ve met at EF parishes are well-catechized, therefore they have no problem with being open to life.

 

[edwest2]

I was born in the mid-1950s. The average number of kids in my mostly Catholic neighborhood was two. Humanae Vitae, published in 1968, was a response to two things: The Pill, which had been approved by the FDA in 1960 but did not enter widespread use until 1967. And the “Sexual Revolution.” I was there. Some people said that Catholics think sex is dirty. We didn’t think that at all. We knew we had sexual desires and marriage was the plan God had for many of us. A baby was called a gift from God, a “bundle of joy.” By the 1970s, what was once private was made public and Adult Bookstores and strip clubs opened across the country.

Small groups of radicals openly defied their parents and the Church by cohabitating without being married. But, in the early 1960s, I had many wonderful adult role models, including my parents, that put me in Catholic school. As the decades passed, it was more about pleasure, and those Christian types were shouted down whenever we complained about cohabitation or strip clubs or “Adult Language.” More bad role models on TV and in movies didn’t help. As time passed, a little more skin, then a little more and then profanity and the internet.

The other problem was problems in the seminaries in the 1970s. One being that while prospective priests were taught Humanae Vitae, there were also told the Church would change its teaching on contraception someday. So when they became priests and parishioners asked about artificial contraception, they were told it was a personal conscience issue. That is changing now.

Peace,
Ed

 

[TrueLight]

Before I became Catholic, I was sure I would remarry especially once my kids were off to college.

Now I see I might have to become one of those chaste widows at least until I hit menopause because no way am I going to have another child.

Sorry if that was TMI.

 

[Rence]

Before I became Catholic, I was sure I would remarry especially once my kids were off to college.

Now I see I might have to become one of those chaste widows at least until I hit menopause because no way am I going to have another child.

Sorry if that was TMI.

You’re not alone. I will probably get married for the first time after menopause as well…because there is no way I’m going to have a bunch of kids just because others tell me I have to. There is no set number of kids that Catholics are “supposed to” have.

It’s odd to me that some people think you can dupe God. The people who are called to have big families are having them. The people who are called to have smaller families are having them. If God wants people to have kids, I think His Will is stronger than a pill’s. And then there are people desperate for a baby who can’t have one despite numerous attempts and all the help the current medical research can provide.

 

[TrueLight]

, I think His Will is stronger than a pill’s.

Oh no, no, no. I am not going there LOL.

If I converted younger than I would use a combination of NFP and abstinence for spacing.

If I were to marry now, I would unfortunately have a contraceptive mentality, because no doubt I would use NFP religiously. And yet, the fear of possibly getting pregnant while using NFP is enough to keep me single.

I just don’t want to start over at my age.

 

[Cider]

In general there is a contraception mentality that is quite rampant. And when I lived near and attended the SSPX chapel there were families with 6+ kids. But not all of us traditionally minded are blessed with large families.

I’m almost 50 with one child, which I had in my early 20’s but was never able to have more children. I lost the only other one I did manage to get pregnant with. It is still painful, and I know that people will see my family and assume that we were BC users, which is not the case, and I wasn’t even Catholic or even Christian then. When we did use NFP it was only in trying to get pregnant again, we never tried to avoid pregnancy, well except when I was on chemotherapy.

 

[TrueLight]

In general there is a contraception mentality that is quite rampant. And when I lived near and attended the SSPX chapel there were families with 6+ kids. But not all of us traditionally minded are blessed with large families.

I’m almost 50 with one child, which I had in my early 20’s but was never able to have more children. I lost the only other one I did manage to get pregnant with. It is still painful, and I know that people will see my family and assume that we were BC users, which is not the case, and I wasn’t even Catholic or even Christian then. When we did use NFP it was only in trying to get pregnant again, we never tried to avoid pregnancy, well except when I was on chemotherapy.

I really think it’s wrong to make assumptions about someone’s use of contraception based on the number of kids they have.

 

[ByzCath08]

@TrueLight.

Couldn’t agree with you more. There are many families who follow the teaching of the church on all issues and are unable to conceive. If someone at my parish approached me and asked if we were using contraception because we only have one child, I’m not sure that I would have enough charity in me to refrain from punching them in the mouth.

People need to worry more about their own salvation and much less about that of those around them.