Where are the Bible verses to back up baby sprinkling?

[Randy_Carson]

I ask, because I lost one child prebirth and I lost another 47 minutes after birth. I was taught that the children are saved through the faith of his/ her parents. I was just wondering what the Catholic church believes. Thanks for your response.

I, too, have lost prematurely born and miscarried children.

God is love and desires that none be lost.

Be at peace about this.

 

[awantz]

I, too, have lost prematurely born and miscarried children.

God is love and desires that none be lost.

Be at peace about this.

Thank You

 

[inkaneer]

Where are the Bible verses to back up baby sprinkling?

The question assumes that there has to be verses in the Bible to support infant baptism. This is a wrong assumption and is based on the heretical protestant doctrine of sola scriptura. Sola scriptura is the reason why there are so many protestant doctrines about Baptism. And before we go on, Baptists are protestants by the very reason that they adhere to the protestant doctrines of sola scriptura and private interpretation of scripture. These are the two fundamental bedrock doctrines of all protestant denominations and of which both are unscriptural. Now back to the subject of protestantism and Baptism. Protestantism is all over the map on this subject. Some like our poster here claim adult only baptism while others like Lutherans claim infants can be baptized too. Some protestants claim Baptism is a sacrament while others say it is only an ordinance. Some say baptism saves others say no it doesn’t. Some say it is necessary others say no its not. All these positions are derived by different protestant denominations using the scriptures alone as an authority coupled with private interpretation.

But infant Baptism was a given for the early christians who, taking a cue from St. Paul, likened baptism to the OT practice of circumcision. Early christian writers like Origen and Augustine tell us infant baptism was Apostolic Teaching. In fact the only controversy in the early church about infants being baptized was whether the baptism should be done as soon as possible or wait until the eighth day as with circumcision. Cyprian of Carthage in 253 AD wrote in his work entitled “Letters” against a man named Fidus who held the position that Baptism for infants should wait till the eighth day. But Cyprian wrote the following:

“As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born” (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

The idea of adult only or believer’s only baptism is a protestant heretical belief and it seems very strange to me that people who call themselves “Baptists” would withhold baptism from anyone.

 

[nlm]

regarding nlm’s post # 25

I’m 59 and was confirmed in the 6th grade @ age 12 which I thought was the universal age or grade for confirmation. I grew up in Chicago, so maybe they did things differently but I thought the Baltimore Catechism followed a timeline regarding Sacraments that was universal among Catholic grammar schools.

That said, times have changed and so has the thinking on the appropriate age for confirmation. I teach a confirmation class at our parish and it’s a two year process that begins with freshman and concludes with sophomores, ages 15 & 16.

The Catholic Church is a living entity and forever shaping and being shaped by it’s members. Vatican II is the most contemporary proof of this assertion.

The argument against infant baptism seems to me to be counter productive and illogical.
If baptizing an infant “could” guarantee that child’s eternal salvation, why would you want to block or prevent that possibility?

Is it possible that infant baptism could do damage to that person’s eternal soul? If you think it will, where is the bible verse explicitly forbidding such a practice?

I think the Catholic Church took the prudent action regarding infant baptism using the entirety of Sacred Scripture and the Wisdom of the Holy Spirit as it was infused into the minds of the original Apostles and early Church Fathers.

Just my opinion but that’s part of the reason I remain an active participant in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

May the Peace of Christ be with us all, always

JT

Hello, you are the perfect person to answer the last part of #25. You started to answer my confirmation questions but then went over to baptism.You mention age 12 as being universal during "our"years. I live in Canada where age 8 was the norm.Perhaps that is the difference. Can you please continue answering the remainder of #25. You seem to be current in these matters. Looking forward to your feedback. NLM

 

[tweetymom]

The church pre-existed the Bible. The existence of the Church before the Bible presuposes the existence of doctrine before the Bible. So, the question is irrelevant.

placido

The Church existed before the Bible, well true but how do you know if the church tells it like Jesus wanted?

 

[jmcrae]

The Church existed before the Bible, well true but how do you know if the church tells it like Jesus wanted?

The same way we know that the first five books of the Bible have been being copied correctly for the past 4,500 years - we trust God to protect it.

 

[estesbob]

The Church existed before the Bible, well true but how do you know if the church tells it like Jesus wanted?

Because Jesus and his Church are one in the same. From the CC:

[795](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/795.htm’) Christ and his Church thus together make up the “whole Christ” (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ

 

[po18guy]

I ask, because I lost one child prebirth and I lost another 47 minutes after birth. I was taught that the children are saved through the faith of his/ her parents. I was just wondering what the Catholic church believes. Thanks for your response.

This is exactly one of the reasons behind infant baptism. In Mark 2:4 and Luke 5:19, we see that Jesus forgave the sins of the parlytic who was lowered through the roof - based on the faith of the man’s friends. Clearly, sins were forgiven and illness healed based on the faith of others. It has also been pointed out in this thread that Jesus raised the dead based on the faith of others, so a personal declaration of faith is not needed to call the Lord’s favor. You know the Lord’s mercy, and His love of children. The most difficult part is to actually trust in that mercy.

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

The Church existed before the Bible, well true but how do you know if the church tells it like Jesus wanted?

Quick answer: John 14:26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”

 

[juliamajor]

Where are the Bible verses to back up baby sprinkling?

Where are the verses that back up bible thumping!

 

[tweetymom]

Where are the verses that back up bible thumping!

jUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN bIBLE THUMPING:shrug:

 

[po18guy]

Where are the verses that back up bible thumping!

Ouch! uch:

 

[jmtowle]

Originally posted by nlm

"A quick question on the point you make about the sacrement of confirmation. You say,…"when he/she decides FOR HIM/HER self to be or not to be a .“christian.I don’t know how old you are but I am 57. I was confirmed as was the common practice in grade 3, at age 8. I do not remember being asked if I WANTED to be confirmed only told that the bishop was coming to the church as he did every fall of the year and that we ALL had to be ready to be confirmed when he came. I do not EVER remember any child actually deciding he/she did not WANT to become a Christian nor were they given that choice.You mention that confirmation occurs at the age of 14+ now. Is there an element of CHOICE in the Catholic church today when preparing young people for confirmation?I have been out of the “loop” for a few years. Thank you for your answer. NLM”

I certainly can’t speak for other parishes and their religious education programs and instructions regarding sacraments, but in my class I have suggested that the decision to accept their Catholic faith and actively participate, is theirs. If they don’t believe in what they are being taught or don’t want to commit to living out their faith, then they need to step up and let their parents and me know how they feel. I have the support of both the religious education director and the Pastor and all of us believe that this decision is a major commitment and the responsibility and commitment is theirs not their parent’s.

No one dropped out last year and I will soon find out if any of these young men and women have chosen not to be confirmed. While it is an important Sacrament, the Holy Spirit will always be right there in the event that they desire to live out their faith in God.
Confirmation is just the first step in a lifelong journey seeking union with the Most Holy Trinity. It’s an important step filled with grace and for some is a launching pad to holiness and for others like myself it is part of a foundation that can be built upon when one comes to their senses ( spiritually speaking ).

It is one thing to profess your faith and believe in that profession but it is in the living out of that faith in one’s family, among their friends and in the work place that that profession
has meaning. When what you say you believe is what you actually do, day in and day out, year after year, you honor your commitment to God, and the faith you profess to believe in. A practicing Catholic makes a profession of faith each Sunday at Mass but
if they leave the house of God and then lie, cheat, steal, gossip etc. etc. then their profession is meaningless and their faith actually resides in those things that bring them
comfort or pleasure and that is truly their god.

I think the Catholic understanding of Baptism and Confirmation is that they are important and necessary steps in a long and difficult journey and that these Sacraments afford the person a degree of grace and a partnership in a community of believers, both here and in heaven, that will greatly improve that person’s chances of successfully conforming their lives to the will of the God the Father.

I have been led to believe that it will be the success of this conforming process that will determine how natural the transition will be from this life into the full Presence of God.
The less successful one is in discovering and conforming to God’s will, the more unnatural and difficult the transition will be, and that is where Purgatory would reconcile
the opposing natures.

My personal opinion is that nearly all, if not all souls, leave this life in some state or degree of non conformity and therefor need some state of existence that allows for attaining total conformity. It is quite possible that only our Lord Jesus Christ and His Mother, lived their entire lives in complete conformity to the Will of God the Father.
That I believe is how the Church holds as Truth, the Bodily Resurrection of our Lord and the Bodily Assumption of His Mother.

May the Peace of Christ be with us all, always

JT

 

[placido]

The Church existed before the Bible, well true but how do you know if the church tells it like Jesus wanted?

Because to suggest otherwise is tantamount to saying “Jesus has abandoned His church after making a false promise”.

placido

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Placido,

This was excellent

Compare that with what St. Paul says in 2 Thess 3:10 - whoever doesn’t work shouldn’t eat.
Do babies work? NO!
Do babies eat? YES!
Why?
Bacause St. Paul’s statemnent is directed at those that CAN work. He did not mean to say babies must be starved to death because they can’t work. Same with baptism.

I detest it when people consider baptism to be a mere demonstration, an act of showing one’s faith to the omniscient God.

placido

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Cachonga,

Sounds like you and NLM have a lot in common … maybe … if you both drop your antagonisms… you learn something by staying on CAF… Who knows - returning to the True Faith is an event that some on this list have experienced…

You forgot to mention when Peter baptised Cornelius and his household (Acts 10). However, I don’t see any mention in any of your citations of how old the youngest member of the household was. On the other hand, I see plenty of evidence where people believed first, then they were baptised (such as the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8, Cornelius in Acts 10, and even Paul’s instructions to the jailer in Acts 16). I have thought very carefully about what I believed when I was baptised in the Catholic Church, and the best I can come up with is “I believe the guy in the dress is really annoying.” I was baptised properly after leaving the Catholic Church (with full knowledge of what I was doing, and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as my Lord, God and Saviour).

God bless

 

[wmscott]

That is not what I am saying.Your children are perfect examples of how a family should function spiritually.( in my opinion of course!) Thank you, this is a compliment and is truly appreciated. We have worked very hard at ensuring our children have gone into the world prepared as best we as parents were able to prepare them for spiritually. It has been a struggle against secularism and peer pressure. The sad thing is that a large majority of our children’s friends think it is odd that they still have the same parents they were born with. To add to that we are to strict with regards to ensuring that they got to church every Sunday, not running the streets until two in the morning, that we pray before meals at home and in public, and the list goes on. In reality, being an intact Christian family is a very hard thing these days no matter what religion one profess to be. You, as parent, have assured a christian education for them. As you say, they have heard the gospels and know the truths. It is precisely at this point in their christian walk, armed with all you have given them,combined with the religious education received at school and or church that they, being well aware of it’s obligations, would NOW decide to become baptised.So at this point, I guess I would like to ask you where a person finds this in Sacred Scripture. Where does it say exactly and unequivocally that it is only adults that can be baptized? I have heard it compared to marriage. One does not HAVE to be married to love another person BUT because of that love the couple WANTS to declare before God and in a public forum that they are committing to one another for life.Towards this same comparison comes the Catholic Church’s teaches that after Baptism comes Confirmation. Because of my love for Christ, which grew from reading the scripture,and being"educated" in many other ways, I wanted to publicly declare that I was going to live my life as Follower of Christ.This is admirable and I can’t really fault anyone for this. This is a very powerful moment in someone’s spiritual life.NLM

I guess in the end I would say that I hope that although some non-Catholics do not believe in infant baptism, which is their right to do so, that they would not be of a mind to believe that the baptized infants of the Catholic Church have received an invalid Baptism. To me this would seem rather presumptuous and judgmental. In the same regard, that although we do not agree with some of the beliefs and definition that some Protestants hold regarding Baptism, as long as it was a Trinitarian Baptism, it was a valid one. The only thing I would want to see is a little respect and understanding for each other’s beliefs.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Mark,

When God commanded that Jewish males be circumcised on the 8th day as the requirement for entry into the Jewish faith - and then St. Paul uses the analogy circumcision referring to baptism as entry into faith in Christ.

Another simple analogy to consider is that of how we look at legal inheritance. In most western societies, an infant is eligible to inherit the worldly possessions of their parents simply by being their child - there is no need to rise up and demand one’s inheritance. Ultimately, we are made Children of God and Heirs to the Kingdom of Heaven by baptism - welcomed into the Family of God… by following the command of Christ to be baptized.

I have no bones to pick with anyone but this is how I see it. 1) Throughtout the N T people were called to repent and be baptised. Infants cannot repent.2) Baptism was always by emersion, sprinkling was never mentioned. 3) In Luke 18: 15-16 Jesus touching the children has nothing to do with baptisim and you know it. When you twist scripture to make it mean what you want it to that is just wrong. If you must prove your point and it’s not in the Bible ,just pull out the old " Well acording to Church tradition " card. That works every time and you do not have to have the burden of proof. Lastly Lydia and Stephanas households that were baptised by Paul does not mention weather infants were in those households and does not state that any were baptised, So once again you are twisting scripture to make your point, not a good habit to get into.

If you think the Bible is being ‘twisted’ to force a ‘proof’ you are going to have present a better case then what you have done so far. By the way, it sounds like you are unhappy about something other then baptism… Maybe CAF can provide you with the information you need.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, MercyMia,

Woooooooooooooooooooo … “…apply in small coats…” do you mean like paint? Err… would that make Original Sin the ‘primer’?

This was an enjoyable post to read - thanks for sharing your thoughts…

So I guess this begs the question of where in scripture you see someone being born into a Christian household, being reared Christian, reaching the magical and elusive age of accountability (12…or 13 is it? I seem to have forgotten, so can you provide the book, chapter and verse for that fact? Thanks!) and then choosing to be baptized?
The idea of repenting and then being baptized applies to adult converts - those are the people you see repenting and being baptized in the New Testament. This still applies today. Entire households where baptized, with no mention of the children being put off until they reached the “age of accountability.” Nowhere is baptism referred to as an adult privilege. At what point does the stain of original sin plaster itself onto an adult person? It is sudden, you wake up one morning and you have sin? Or does it apply in small coats? It just doesn’t make sense that a certain age the fall takes its effect on individuals. It was a collective fall, collective of all souls of man kind. If not, why were Adam and Eve’s children fallen too? Wouldn’t they have been spotless until they reached this “age of accountablity” too?

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Mark,

You distinguish yourself from your Protestant brethern by this acknowledgement that God is, “…not that petty” But, a child born of Jewish parents, who are conforming to the Law of Moses and having him circumcised on the 8th day - would have every assurance that he is a Jew - even if he were to die shortly thereafter. Why do you think God would be “petty” in this regard?

wmscott Personally I don’t think GOD cares about the method used for baptism . I don’t believe he is that petty. But I do believe it is dangerous for an infant to be baptised with the parents believing that his ticket has been punched to heaven. Because baptism does not save a person, faith in Jesus does.

I realize that using the term, “…his ticket has been punch…” is a criticism - but, is it appropriate. If the term, “…sin has been washed away…” would that help with the concept. Original sin is just that - the inheritance we have from the disobedience of our First Parents. Without baptism we are simply not recognized as God’s adopted children.

It sounds like if you were alive at the time of Christ, you would have helping the Apostles … to keep the little children from coming to Him. Notice, the Apostles were rebuked for their inappropriate actions. Please learn from their experience.

God bless