Where are the Bible verses to back up baby sprinkling?

[tqualey]

Hi, Frances,

I was not aware of this - thanks for sharing it!

Yup. Scott Hahn makes the point in one of his audio-tape studies that in the ancient world of those societies where circumcision was practiced it was the Jews alone who circumcised infants, whereas the other societies waited until the boy was about to enter manhood, thus it was a rite of passage associated with fertility. For the Jews, though, circumcision (and later Baptism with the Christians) was a sign of a covenant entered into with God. So you have to wonder how early Jewish Christians would see the denial of entrance into the New Covenant for their infants to be an improvement on the Old Covenant with its circumsion of male children into that Covenant. If the New Covenant surpasses the Old, why would it exclude children of believers when children had formerly been included? Fortunately, they didn’t have that concern.

God bless

 

[Contarini]

Where are the Bible verses to back up baby sprinkling?

We traditional, orthodox Christians (Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc.) base our theology on the entirety of Scripture as received and interpreted in the Church for 2000 years. If you prefer to base your theology on isolated Bible verses taken out of context, I am very sorry for you.

Edwin

 

[murphjos]

I also was baptised after I left the Cathoilc church.It was based on MY understanding of the commitment I was making.I BELIEVED , I REPENTED and I ACCEPTED Jesus as my Lord and Saviour and by Rising and publicly being baptised I committed to living my life as a Christian. It was an EXTRAORDINARY experience.One I would HIGHLY recommend.NLM

What exactly prevented you from believing, repenting and accepting Jesus as your personal savior during your 50 years as a Catholic? (billions of us have.) As for rising publicly… were you not confirmed into the faith? This is every Catholic’s opportunity to publicly reaffirm the the vows taken on their behalf by their parents. Do you believe that your lack of understanding of the sacrament the first time around somehow gelded the power the of the holy spirit? I consider it a huge insult to the Catholic faith to deny the validity of Catholic baptisms.

 

[wmscott]

Hi, Mark,

You distinguish yourself from your Protestant brethern by this acknowledgement that God is, “…not that petty” But, a child born of Jewish parents, who are conforming to the Law of Moses and having him circumcised on the 8th day - would have every assurance that he is a Jew - even if he were to die shortly thereafter. Why do you think God would be “petty” in this regard?

I realize that using the term, “…his ticket has been punch…” is a criticism - but, is it appropriate. If the term, “…sin has been washed away…” would that help with the concept. Original sin is just that - the inheritance we have from the disobedience of our First Parents. Without baptism we are simply not recognized as God’s adopted children.

It sounds like if you were alive at the time of Christ, you would have helping the Apostles … to keep the little children from coming to Him. Notice, the Apostles were rebuked for their inappropriate actions. Please learn from their experience.

God bless

Hi Tom, thanks. I had not been able to get to this right away. I was tempted to start quoting the CCC but decided not to. I know that baptism is removing original sin, that it is a requirement to enter heaven, and that by it we are made members of Christ and incorporated with the Church. I do not think that Mark knew that I knew this.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Awantz,

I am sorry to hear of your loss.

Our eldest daughter miscarried twice - and each had its own devestation. These were two innocent lives - and, we have always thought we had our own little saints in heaven. I know we will not be disappointed.

I ask, because I lost one child prebirth and I lost another 47 minutes after birth. I was taught that the children are saved through the faith of his/ her parents. I was just wondering what the Catholic church believes. Thanks for your response.

God bless

 

[MercyMia]

Hi, MercyMia,

Woooooooooooooooooooo … “…apply in small coats…” do you mean like paint? Err… would that make Original Sin the ‘primer’?

This was an enjoyable post to read - thanks for sharing your thoughts…

God bless

Thanks for the appreciation. I am still patiently waiting here for someone to provide BCV on the exact moment the age of accountability kicks in. I mean, if were a set age like 12 - why not have every twelve year old get baptized on their birthday, that way you are ensuring they cannot die before it is too late! Right? The clock strikes midnight on their 12th birthday, and dunk! Unless the age is 13? Or was it 14? Now that I mention it some 10 year olds are really mature. I am just glad scripture makes it perfectly clear what age we are supposed to…oh wait, never mind. Ahem. BTW If we are getting baptized as soon as we are accountable, how can follow the command to “repent and be baptized” if anything we did up until that point wasn’t a sin since we were not yet accountable?! What are we repenting if we were sinless up until that point?
And still yet, I wonder, do we wake up one morning and suddenly “feel” accountable? Do we suddenly feel sinful? How do we know, if by the time we are accountable the devil may be able to convince us that we have not sinned? Why does the collective fall apply to us at a certain age but not always? Is it like wisdom teeth that grow in? Just curious.

 

[wmscott]

Thanks for the appreciation. I am still patiently waiting here for someone to provide BCV on the exact moment the age of accountability kicks in. I mean, if were a set age like 12 - why not have every twelve year old get baptized on their birthday, that way you are ensuring they cannot die before it is too late! Right? The clock strikes midnight on their 12th birthday, and dunk! Unless the age is 13? Or was it 14? Now that I mention it some 10 year olds are really mature. I am just glad scripture makes it perfectly clear what age we are supposed to…oh wait, never mind. Ahem. BTW If we are getting baptized as soon as we are accountable, how can follow the command to “repent and be baptized” if anything we did up until that point wasn’t a sin since we were not yet accountable?! What are we repenting if we were sinless up until that point?
And still yet, I wonder, do we wake up one morning and suddenly “feel” accountable? Do we suddenly feel sinful? How do we know, if by the time we are accountable the devil may be able to convince us that we have not sinned? Why does the collective fall apply to us at a certain age but not always? Is it like wisdom teeth that grow in? Just curious.

The problem there is no set age; there is no BCV that states this. The issue is what Catholics believe and what some Protestants believe. Furthermore, to advance their claims, they take Sacred Scripture and interpret them differently than the Catholic Church to support their particular belief system. With many different Protestant denominations, not all, having many differences in their interpretations of Sacred Scripture, they feel that their way is the only way. What they are doing for their particular belief system is interpreting Sacred Scripture, setting doctrine for their belief system, and preaching it to their flock. This is the same as what the Catholic Church does. The shortcoming with this is there is no one teaching authority (Magisterium or Sacred Tradition)( And is a whole other post) as with the Catholic Church, which is Biblical, to properly interpret Sacred Scripture with regards to this subject.
If only the Protestants that have an issue with infant baptism would read what the CCC says about baptism and infant baptism, they would see what a beautiful Sacrament this is that the Catholic Church practices. They do not have to agree with it, but just understand that it is just as valid as their adult Trinitarian baptism.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, MercyMia,

One thing is for certain … these man-made, different gospels are really hard to keep straight - especially if these items have to be squared with Scripture and Apostolic Tradition… Especially when you consider the 30,000+ Protestant denominations out there coming up with new versions on everything under the sun.

Thanks for the appreciation. I am still patiently waiting here for someone to provide BCV on the exact moment the age of accountability kicks in. I mean, if were a set age like 12 - why not have every twelve year old get baptized on their birthday, that way you are ensuring they cannot die before it is too late! Right? The clock strikes midnight on their 12th birthday, and dunk! Unless the age is 13? Or was it 14? Now that I mention it some 10 year olds are really mature. I am just glad scripture makes it perfectly clear what age we are supposed to…oh wait, never mind. Ahem. BTW If we are getting baptized as soon as we are accountable, how can follow the command to “repent and be baptized” if anything we did up until that point wasn’t a sin since we were not yet accountable?! What are we repenting if we were sinless up until that point?
And still yet, I wonder, do we wake up one morning and suddenly “feel” accountable? Do we suddenly feel sinful? How do we know, if by the time we are accountable the devil may be able to convince us that we have not sinned? Why does the collective fall apply to us at a certain age but not always? Is it like wisdom teeth that grow in? Just curious.

My guess is you will probably have to continue waiting … but, don’t feel wait - the rest of us will be waiting, too.

Best wishes and God bless

 

[nlm]

What exactly prevented you from believing, repenting and accepting Jesus as your personal savior during your 50 years as a Catholic? (billions of us have.) As for rising publicly… were you not confirmed into the faith? This is every Catholic’s opportunity to publicly reaffirm the the vows taken on their behalf by their parents. Do you believe that your lack of understanding of the sacrament the first time around somehow gelded the power the of the holy spirit? I consider it a huge insult to the Catholic faith to deny the validity of Catholic baptisms./QUOTHaving a "personal"relationship with Jesus was NEVER explained to us. As for standing publicly reaffirming the vows taken by my parents during the confirmation> I was 8 years old. What did I understand about any of this. I did as I was told and followed the rest of the grade 3 class.I don’t think it affected the Holy Spirit at all.When did I deny the validity of Catholic baptism ? See, that is the problem.If questions are asked, in an HONEST effort to better understand I get sarcasm and negative comments such as the one in your closing sentence.NLM

 

[wmscott]

murphjos;5591457:

What exactly prevented you from believing, repenting and accepting Jesus as your personal savior during your 50 years as a Catholic? (billions of us have.) As for rising publicly… were you not confirmed into the faith? This is every Catholic’s opportunity to publicly reaffirm the the vows taken on their behalf by their parents. Do you believe that your lack of understanding of the sacrament the first time around somehow gelded the power the of the holy spirit? I consider it a huge insult to the Catholic faith to deny the validity of Catholic baptisms.[/QUOTHaving a "personal"relationship with Jesus was NEVER explained to us. As for standing publicly reaffirming the vows taken by my parents during the confirmation> I was 8 years old. What did I understand about any of this. I did as I was told and followed the rest of the grade 3 class.I don’t think it affected the Holy Spirit at all.When did I deny the validity of Catholic baptism ? See, that is the problem.If questions are asked, in an HONEST effort to better understand I get sarcasm and negative comments such as the one in your closing sentence.NLM

Nlm, hard to read this post but I got through it. As for me, I do hope you are not seeing any sarcasm from me. I do know that when it is directed towards me I do get my feathers ruffled and respond in kind, but this is a flaw with me and I am trying to work on that issue.
I am thankful that you do not feel that Catholic baptisms are invalid; this actually makes feel better about this thread. As for confirmation, all three of my children were in the 8th grade when they received this Sacrament, and I was 45. By the way, I was a baptized in the Southern Baptist church, and I have been a convert to Catholicism since 1983. I really do not know why I waited 20 years to be confirmed. Better late than never.

[/quote]

 

[nlm]

I guess in the end I would say that I hope that although some non-Catholics do not believe in infant baptism, which is their right to do so, that they would not be of a mind to believe that the baptized infants of the Catholic Church have received an invalid Baptism. To me this would seem rather presumptuous and judgmental. In the same regard, that although we do not agree with some of the beliefs and definition that some Protestants hold regarding Baptism, as long as it was a Trinitarian Baptism, it was a valid one. The only thing I would want to see is a little respect and understanding for each other’s beliefs.

I will start by responding to your closing comment. When have I shown disrespect to the Catholic church? Is asking HONEST and VALID questions a lack of respect? If I am asking, it’s because after 50 years as a Catholic, I still don’t know and have come away still wondering. I thought asking questions of the Catholic church was the, " raison d’etre" for the Forum.Speaking for our denomination, yes of course we believe in a Trinitarian Baptism.I am not for one minute judging what happens or does not happen during infant baptism. That is between God and the child…not any of us.I am not saying that I have a quote from scripture on the matter discussed in this thread. What I am speaking of is similar to health care. The objective is always to have the recipient of the care make an INFORMED and EDUCATED decision and consent.Should it not be the same for our spiritual health care.In MY case, what did I understand at age 8 ? I can tell you however, at age 52, I understood clearly the journey I was commencing that day I was baptised. No,I am NOT suggesting everyone be baptised at age 52.I honestly hope this clarifies where I am coming from in all this.NLM

 

[jmcrae]

I will start by responding to your closing comment. When have I shown disrespect to the Catholic church? Is asking HONEST and VALID questions a lack of respect? If I am asking, it’s because after 50 years as a Catholic, I still don’t know and have come away still wondering. I thought asking questions of the Catholic church was the, " raison d’etre" for the Forum.Speaking for our denomination, yes of course we believe in a Trinitarian Baptism.I am not for one minute judging what happens or does not happen during infant baptism. That is between God and the child…not any of us.

If the infant baptism was a valid baptism, then it would be a great and terrible sin to rebaptize the child when he is older.

The reason is that, when you rebaptize someone, you are saying to the Holy Spirit, nothing valid happened the first time. (That’s why priests never rebaptize, and if there is uncertainty about whether someone is baptized already or not, they are very careful to say, "if you have never been baptized before, then, I baptize you … " etc.)

This is in order to avoid the terrible sin of profaning the Holy Spirit.

I am not saying that I have a quote from scripture on the matter discussed in this thread. What I am speaking of is similar to health care. The objective is always to have the recipient of the care make an INFORMED and EDUCATED decision and consent.

But you don’t wait to start delivering health care to a child until after he has reached the age of consent, do you? The parents stand in for him as his proxy in the matter of health care, so that even while the child is unable to speak for himself, he can still receive the health care that he needs.

In the same way, it doesn’t make any sense to forbid a child from living the Christian life until he reaches the age of consent - it is good for people - all people, including children - to live the Christian life. If you throw the child into the life of sin while he is still helpless and unable to make his own decisions, then he will be rooted in sin and unable to break his sinful habits by the time he is permitted to begin to live the Christian life - and yet the Scriptures tell us to train up our children in the way that we want them to go.

The Christian life begins with Baptism; therefore, it makes sense to baptize children as early as possible - because it is good for them, and because as parents, it is up to us to make sure our children receive things that are good for them.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, NLM,

Without sarcasm, I am interested in this question.

Having a "personal"relationship with Jesus was NEVER explained to us. As for standing publicly reaffirming the vows taken by my parents during the confirmation> I was 8 years old. What did I understand about any of this. I did as I was told and followed the rest of the grade 3 class.I don’t think it affected the Holy Spirit at all.When did I deny the validity of Catholic baptism ? See, that is the problem.If questions are asked, in an HONEST effort to better understand I get sarcasm and negative comments such as the one in your closing sentence.NLM

Since you are a new member, there are at least two things you may want to keep in mind:

1.) Anything you put out on the list is subject to everyone’s interpretation.

2.) If you are going to ask a QUESTION, then end with a question mark. It certainly makes for improved clarity.

The way I read you statement, you were essentially making a defiant proclamation that you had broken free of the yoke of Catholicism and have gone somewhere else. I certainly did not understand ANY QUESTION in your statement.

By the way, if you are adult enough to post, then be adult enough to respond with an appropriate answer or at least say you do not know. Complaining about sarcasm does not demonstrate maturity. So, please, respond to the question: When did I deny the validity of Catholic baptism? and continue on with this discussion.

God bless

 

[nlm]

If the infant baptism was a valid baptism, then it would be a great and terrible sin to rebaptize the child when he is older.

The reason is that, when you rebaptize someone, you are saying to the Holy Spirit, nothing valid happened the first time. (That’s why priests never rebaptize, and if there is uncertainty about whether someone is baptized already or not, they are very careful to say, "if you have never been baptized before, then, I baptize you … " etc.)

This is in order to avoid the terrible sin of profaning the Holy Spirit.

But you don’t wait to start delivering health care to a child until after he has reached the age of consent, do you? The parents stand in for him as his proxy in the matter of health care, so that even while the child is unable to speak for himself, he can still receive the health care that he needs.

In the same way, it doesn’t make any sense to forbid a child from living the Christian life until he reaches the age of consent - it is good for people - all people, including children - to live the Christian life. If you throw the child into the life of sin while he is still helpless and unable to make his own decisions, then he will be rooted in sin and unable to break his sinful habits by the time he is permitted to begin to live the Christian life - and yet the Scriptures tell us to train up our children in the way that we want them to go.

The Christian life begins with Baptism; therefore, it makes sense to baptize children as early as possible - because it is good for them, and because as parents, it is up to us to make sure our children receive things that are good for them.

It’s interesting to watch you make up things as if I said them.I never said children should be left out there drifting in sin and corruption etc etc. until they themselves choose to be baptised. What " stuff" you make up along the way.I am not suggesting people be baptised twice, you are. I am suggesting ONE baptism when the individual ,armed with a good christian education and a good understanding of good christian values as seen within their family unit as they grew up with good christian parents . THEN the individual himself decides , yes Lord,I choose because of all I know and have witnessed to commit my life to you and I am deciding to become a Christ Follower.NLM

 

[tweetymom]

It’s interesting to watch you make up things as if I said them.I never said children should be left out there drifting in sin and corruption etc etc. until they themselves choose to be baptised. What " stuff" you make up along the way.I am not suggesting people be baptised twice, you are. I am suggesting ONE baptism when the individual ,armed with a good christian education and a good understanding of good christian values as seen within their family unit as they grew up with good christian parents . THEN the individual himself decides , yes Lord,I choose because of all I know and have witnessed to commit my life to you and I am deciding to become a Christ Follower.NLM
:thumbsup:Ido agreeith you, I was Baptised as a child went away from the Church until one day I realized I needed God in my life and joined the Baptise Church and noone questioned my Catholic Baptism. It was after much prayer and Bible that I felt the need to be rebaptised and I did and am hange thatfor anythjappy to report that I felt like a new person and would’nt change that experience for anything I have since returned to my chidhood religion Catholic I have never had a guilty moment about this decision.

 

[davidv]

murphjos;5591457:

What exactly prevented you from believing, repenting and accepting Jesus as your personal savior during your 50 years as a Catholic? (billions of us have.) As for rising publicly… were you not confirmed into the faith? This is every Catholic’s opportunity to publicly reaffirm the the vows taken on their behalf by their parents. Do you believe that your lack of understanding of the sacrament the first time around somehow gelded the power the of the holy spirit? I consider it a huge insult to the Catholic faith to deny the validity of Catholic baptisms.

Having a "personal"relationship with Jesus was NEVER explained to us.

Are you sure? Were you taught from a catechism? Were you taught to love God? Is this not about relationship. One cannot love without a relationship.

As for standing publicly reaffirming the vows taken by my parents during the confirmation> I was 8 years old. What did I understand about any of this.

To me this statement reveals one of the root problems with modern thinking when it comes to spiritual matters. Understanding does not precede Faith. Trust precedes Faith. Faith seeks understanding.

I did as I was told and followed the rest of the grade 3 class.

Obedience to lawful authority is a good thing.

I don’t think it affected the Holy Spirit at all.

I agree. Our acceptance or rejection of Truth only affects us, not the Truth. The Holy Spirit, being God, is unchangeable.

When did I deny the validity of Catholic baptism ? See, that is the problem.If questions are asked, in an HONEST effort to better understand I get sarcasm and negative comments such as the one in your closing sentence.NLM

 

[murphjos]

You said that when you left the church, you were re-baptized. Implicit in that statement is a charge that your first baptism was not adequate. If that is not what you you meant then why did you get baptized again?

As for never being taught that a personal relationship with God was possible and not understanding what you were doing at your confirmation… That is poor catechism and is a shame. But the fact that you were poorly catechized does indite the entire Church and her teaching.

 

[estesbob]

You said that when you left the church, you were re-baptized. Implicit in that statement is a charge that your first baptism was not adequate. If that is not what you you meant then why did you get baptized again?

As for never being taught that a personal relationship with God was possible and not understanding what you were doing at your confirmation… That is poor catechism and is a shame. But the fact that you were poorly catechized does indite the entire Church and her teaching.

if one stays in a church for 50 years and never bothers to find out what it is it teaches they cant blame poor cathecis-they can only blame themselves/

This morning I held out Lord and Savior in my hands and then consumed his body. Once can not get a more personal realtionship with Jesus than that. Why one would trade that direct physical realtionship for one based on emotion is beyond me.

 

[tweetymom]

You said that when you left the church, you were re-baptized. Implicit in that statement is a charge that your first baptism was not adequate. If that is not what you you meant then why did you get baptized again?

As for never being taught that a personal relationship with God was possible and not understanding what you were doing at your confirmation… That is poor catechism and is a shame. But the fact that you were poorly catechized does indite the entire Church and her teaching.

No I did not say or imply that my first Baptism was not valid. In the years I felt like this is what God wanted e to do this, It was because I Felt that this is what I should do:thumbsup:
I was not comfirmed until the age 62 when I decided t come back. And as what has been said in prior some of you are assuming that those of us who decide to followwhat we feel is God’s urging we are somewhat less.Oh and bytge way I have been teaching in Rcia and our Priest did indeed rebaptise a lady who was Baptised as a child because she wanted to experience The baptism.

 

[MercyMia]

No I did not say or imply that my first Baptism was not valid. In the years I felt like this is what God wanted e to do this, It was because I Felt that this is what I should do:thumbsup:
I was not comfirmed until the age 62 when I decided t come back. And as what has been said in prior some of you are assuming that those of us who decide to followwhat we feel is God’s urging we are somewhat less.Oh and bytge way I have been teaching in Rcia and our Priest did indeed rebaptise a lady who was Baptised as a child because she wanted to experience The baptism.

Um, he should not have done that. From what I understand, a priest would only re-baptize if the original baptism was not done in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If the person did not remember how the baptism was done, the priest will re-baptize with a conditional baptism just in case the first one was not said that way and was thus, not valid. IF they were in fact baptized correctly the first time, that is their actual baptism. Could that have been the case? Perhaps the lady did not remember the format of her first baptism since she was a child? The Catholic Church recognizes and respects the validity of all baptisms in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as valid.