Where did the anti-family vibe come from?

  • Thread starter Thread starter mschrank
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.

Yep – “Portrait” has been shown to be wrong – more than once. His views on this thread – are just another example of his wrong extremism. There are others – who hold the same type of extremist views.
All right, well - I would be the LAST person to defend Portrait’s views, but the character assassination is not charitable, nor necessary. Please express your frustration with regard to Portrait’s specific viewpoints rather than a blanket statement regarding Portrait’s “extremist views.”
 
Well at least your not going back to 1566 here ;). I think Pope Leo XIII is being more balanced than you give him credit for. He clearly favors women working at home but notice he does not say that a woman can’t or should not work outside of the home. He only says that woman are not suited for certain occupations. And says that woman are better at housework. You could also say men are better suited for construction because of reasons x,y and z. That would not mean that men should only seek out an occupation in construction.

I will add that opinions of the nature of women have changed overtime. It was once believed that women were not as smart as men because their brains were slightly smaller. We now know that size does not matter it has to do with the makeup of the brain. It has also been a common belief that women were morally weaker than men (usually citing Eve). Put these two false beliefs together and the nature of women seems more childlike and in need of guidance, not able to be independent etc…
What’s wrong with 1566? How long does it take for Church teachings to get moldy and go bad? The apostles creed is still older than that. So is the Bible.

In any case, I never asserted that Pope Leo XIII was being “unbalanced”, and as I said earlier in the thread I’m not claiming that a married woman is wrong to work outside the home in every case. I’m not arguing that Pope Leo XIII said that either. I am arguing that being a “stay at home mom” is the ideal situation for a married woman, and I believe Rerum Novarum supports that argument.

I think comparing construction work to motherhood is an insult to motherhood.

Pax Christi
 
All right, well - I would be the LAST person to defend Portrait’s views, but the character assassination is not charitable, nor necessary. Please express your frustration with regard to Portrait’s specific viewpoints rather than a blanket statement regarding Portrait’s “extremist views.”
Well said.

Pax Christi
 
In any case, I never asserted that Pope Leo XIII was being “unbalanced”, and as I said earlier in the thread I’m not claiming that a married woman is wrong to work outside the home in every case. I’m not arguing that Pope Leo XIII said that either. I am arguing that being a “stay at home mom” is the ideal situation for a married woman, and I believe Rerum Novarum supports that argument.
There is the question of what constitutes staying at home. It is difficult for me to imagine why a woman having a part-time job or volunteer work that enabled her to be in the home when the rest of the family was as well is not problematic. Similarly, if the father (God forbid!) must pick up the children from school occasionally because the mother is engaged elsewhere, no immense crime against nature has been committed.

So, what exactly is meant by “stay at home mom?”
 
What’s wrong with 1566? How long does it take for Church teachings to get moldy and go bad? The apostles creed is still older than that. So is the Bible.

In any case, I never asserted that Pope Leo XIII was being “unbalanced”, and as I said earlier in the thread I’m not claiming that a married woman is wrong to work outside the home in every case. I’m not arguing that Pope Leo XIII said that either. I am arguing that being a “stay at home mom” is the ideal situation for a married woman, and I believe Rerum Novarum supports that argument.

I think comparing construction work to motherhood is an insult to motherhood.

Pax Christi
Dear Dan Daly,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your (name removed by moderator)ut to the discussion.

Indeed, you are quite right, dear friend, Sacred Tradition does not “go bad” with the passage of time and to state that it does, or imply that it is no longer permenant teaching of the magisterium, is surely jolly un-Catholic. Unfortunately, there is this notion that prevails among some contemporary Catholics, that the only valid and authoritative teaching today is what is contained within the current Cate**chism of the Catholic Church and that any part of Sacred Tradition not integrated into the same is, by definition, no longer current authoritative teaching. This is a very narrow understanding of our most holy religion and I have never read anywhere, dear friend, where our Church officially teaches this, have you? *Casti Connubii *is an encyclical and hence a part of the Ordinary Magisterium and so requires religious submission of the mind and will of the faithful. Dissent from papal teaching in encyclicals is not a part of the creed of a Catholic. The only time that such teaching could be disregarded is if it could be proven that a specific aspect of the teaching had been officially abrogated by a later pontiff. This has simply not been the case with papal teaching rigorously declaring that a married woman’s proper sphere is within the home, attending to domestic affairs.

Moreover, the essence of this teaching is not based upon the historical situation of the day in which it was uttered, but rather upon, as you correctly state, “the nature of a woman that does not change”. Therefore, it has perpetual validity and Catholics today have no authority to challenge this teaching and declare it invalid and irrelevant, for even Holy Mother Church has not done so, and indeed, would not do so because it is a timeless truth that does not become obsolete. What has changed over time is the secular understanding of the nature of women, which has, of course, become riddled with feminist ideology, especially since the permissive 1960’s, but as Catholics we do not conform ourselves to the godless and often pernicious mindset of the world (cf. Rom. 12: 2). We look to the good and wholesome teaching of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, which, as in the topic currently under review, almost providentially anticipated the emergence of the anti-Christian feminist ideology of our troubled times. Of a truth, God is with His Church and forever guiding it with godly wisdom.

For the record, I have freely admitted that motherhood will not be possible in every circumstance, for example, where the husband simply cannot be the breadwinner owing to a severe ongoing mental or physical illness. Moreover, there are those women who will be called to the religious life and others who will not meet a suitable chap with which to enter into holy wedlock. Thus, motherhood cannot be the calling of *every *woman without exception, but I would contend that, for a married woman, being exclusively a mother and a housewife is the ideal family arrangement and Rerum Novarum most certainly supports that, dear friend

If more Catholic women today gave heed to what has been said in Sacred Tradition, not dismissing it as next to worthless on account of its antiquity, then I am of the opinion that our Western society would be far better place, evidenced by greater family stability, happier spouses and less children and young people with emotional disturbances and behavoural problems.

God bless and may I wish you, dear friend, and all contributors to the present discussion a jolly splendid weekend, whatever are your plans.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:
 
40.png
Walking_Home:
Yep – “Portrait” has been shown to be wrong – more than once. His views on this thread – are just another example of his wrong extremism. There are others – who hold the same type of extremist views.
All right, well - I would be the LAST person to defend Portrait’s views, but the character assassination is not charitable, nor necessary. Please express your frustration with regard to Portrait’s specific viewpoints rather than a blanket statement regarding Portrait’s “extremist views.”

Not “character assassination”. What I said is based on being familiar with “Portrait’s” views on women – which he has expressed on this site – and he being shown that he is wrong.
 
Dear Dan Daly,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your (name removed by moderator)ut to the discussion.

Indeed, you are quite right, dear friend, Sacred Tradition does not “go bad” with the passage of time and to state that it does, or imply that it is no longer permenant teaching of the magisterium, is surely jolly un-Catholic. Unfortunately, there is this notion that prevails among some contemporary Catholics, that the only valid and authoritative teaching today is what is contained within the current Cate**chism of the Catholic Church and that any part of Sacred Tradition not integrated into the same is, by definition, no longer current authoritative teaching. This is a very narrow understanding of our most holy religion and I have never read anywhere, dear friend, where our Church officially teaches this, have you? *Casti Connubii *is an encyclical and hence a part of the Ordinary Magisterium and so requires religious submission of the mind and will of the faithful. Dissent from papal teaching in encyclicals is not a part of the creed of a Catholic. The only time that such teaching could be disregarded is if it could be proven that a specific aspect of the teaching had been officially abrogated by a later pontiff. This has simply not been the case with papal teaching rigorously declaring that a married woman’s proper sphere is within the home, attending to domestic affairs.

Moreover, the essence of this teaching is not based upon the historical situation of the day in which it was uttered, but rather upon, as you correctly state, “the nature of a woman that does not change”. Therefore, it has perpetual validity and Catholics today have no authority to challenge this teaching and declare it invalid and irrelevant, for even Holy Mother Church has not done so, and indeed, would not do so because it is a timeless truth that does not become obsolete. What has changed over time is the secular understanding of the nature of women, which has, of course, become riddled with feminist ideology, especially since the permissive 1960’s, but as Catholics we do not conform ourselves to the godless and often pernicious mindset of the world (cf. Rom. 12: 2). We look to the good and wholesome teaching of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, which, as in the topic currently under review, almost providentially anticipated the emergence of the anti-Christian feminist ideology of our troubled times. Of a truth, God is with His Church and forever guiding it with godly wisdom.

For the record, I have freely admitted that motherhood will not be possible in every circumstance, for example, where the husband simply cannot be the breadwinner owing to a severe ongoing mental or physical illness. Moreover, there are those women who will be called to the religious life and others who will not meet a suitable chap with which to enter into holy wedlock. Thus, motherhood cannot be the calling of *every *woman without exception, but I would contend that, for a married woman, being exclusively a mother and a housewife is the ideal family arrangement and Rerum Novarum most certainly supports that, dear friend

If more Catholic women today gave heed to what has been said in Sacred Tradition, not dismissing it as next to worthless on account of its antiquity, then I am of the opinion that our Western society would be far better place, evidenced by greater family stability, happier spouses and less children and young people with emotional disturbances and behavoural problems.

God bless and may I wish you, dear friend, and all contributors to the present discussion a jolly splendid weekend, whatever are your plans.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:

And you coming back – again and again – imposing restriction on women – is not going to change – that you are wrong.
 
Well at least your not going back to 1566 here ;). I think Pope Leo XIII is being more balanced than you give him credit for. He clearly favors women working at home but notice he does not say that a woman can’t or should not work outside of the home. He only says that woman are not suited for certain occupations. And says that woman are better at housework. You could also say men are better suited for construction because of reasons x,y and z. That would not mean that men should only seek out an occupation in construction.

I will add that opinions of the nature of women have changed overtime. It was once believed that women were not as smart as men because their brains were slightly smaller. We now know that size does not matter it has to do with the makeup of the brain. It has also been a common belief that women were morally weaker than men (usually citing Eve). Put these two false beliefs together and the nature of women seems more childlike and in need of guidance, not able to be independent etc…
Yeah there is a big difference between favoring women working at home and saying that it is immoral and sinful for them to work outside the home. I mean typically women are better at caring for children. As for housework I wonder if that is more a symptom of women usually being expected to do most of the housework? I mean it doesn;t take special skills to run a vacuum cleaner or wash a kitchen floor. Having a vagina doesn;t somehow make you better at laundry lol.

And yeah totally agree with your last paragraph. Really I think it is hard to deny that certain views of women probably did have some influence on statements about them being more qualified for housework and childrearing then going out in the world.
 
What’s wrong with 1566? How long does it take for Church teachings to get moldy and go bad? The apostles creed is still older than that. So is the Bible.

In any case, I never asserted that Pope Leo XIII was being “unbalanced”, and as I said earlier in the thread I’m not claiming that a married woman is wrong to work outside the home in every case. I’m not arguing that Pope Leo XIII said that either. I am arguing that being a “stay at home mom” is the ideal situation for a married woman, and I believe Rerum Novarum supports that argument.

I think comparing construction work to motherhood is an insult to motherhood.

Pax Christi
What’s wrong with 1566? How long does it take for Church teachings to get moldy and go bad? The apostles creed is still older than that. So is the Bible.

In any case, I never asserted that Pope Leo XIII was being “unbalanced”, and as I said earlier in the thread I’m not claiming that a married woman is wrong to work outside the home in every case. I’m not arguing that Pope Leo XIII said that either. I am arguing that being a “stay at home mom” is the ideal situation for a married woman, and I believe Rerum Novarum supports that argument.

I think comparing construction work to motherhood is an insult to motherhood.

Pax Christi
I was not comparing construction to motherhood. I was using the example of contstruction to explain what the Pope was saying.

Earlier you refrenced the catechism from 1566. The catechism has changed since then. You’ve got a problem if you want to argue something from the catechism and you have to go back that far. At least when you were refrencing Rerum Novarum you were in the year 1891. Something else to consider, JPII wrote this about the Catechism: The Catechism has a great potential to diminish division within the Church and draw believers closer to one another and to Christ. Often, on these forums at least, we use the Catechism in a divisive way.

I respect your view that a stay at home mom is best for women and the family. I’m a stay at home mom myself. I believe that this is best for my family. However, I know lots of good Catholic mom’s who do work outside the home and I would not presume to know what is best for them. And I’m fine agreeing to disagree with you on that. The Church does not say that we have to agree on everything and the Church does not have a teaching for everything. However, we are all Catholic.

**There is no need of adding any qualifying terms to the profession of Catholicism: it is quite enough for each one to proclaim “Christian is my name and Catholic my surname,” only let him endeavour to be in reality what he calls himself." **- Pope Benedict XV: Encyclical Letter Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum 24, 1 November, 1914.
 
Earlier you refrenced the catechism from 1566. The catechism has changed since then. You’ve got a problem if you want to argue something from the catechism and you have to go back that far.
If that is your standard for catechisms, then you can’t use the Catechism of the Catholic Church, because the CCC goes back that far. It cites the Catechism of the Council of Trent numerous times, and says:
  1. "The ministry of catechesis draws ever fresh energy from the councils. the Council of Trent is a noteworthy example of this. It gave catechesis priority in its constitutions and decrees. It lies at the origin of the Roman Catechism, which is also known by the name of that council and which is a work of the first rank as a summary of Christian teaching."The Council of Trent initiated a remarkable organization of the Church’s catechesis. Thanks to the work of holy bishops and theologians such as St. Peter Canisius, St. Charles Borromeo, St. Turibius of Mongrovejo or St. Robert Bellarmine, it occasioned the publication of numerous catechisms.
So by referencing the Catechism of Trent, the CCC excludes itself from you consideration. You’ll find that almost all modern Church documents reference document (including the Bible) that are at least as old as the Catechism of Trent. The continuity of Church teaching isn’t a problem. It’s one of the signs the Church is Christ’s Church.

Pax
 
If that is your standard for catechisms, then you can’t use the Catechism of the Catholic Church, because the CCC goes back that far. It cites the Catechism of the Council of Trent numerous times, and says:
  1. "The ministry of catechesis draws ever fresh energy from the councils. the Council of Trent is a noteworthy example of this. It gave catechesis priority in its constitutions and decrees. It lies at the origin of the Roman Catechism, which is also known by the name of that council and which is a work of the first rank as a summary of Christian teaching."The Council of Trent initiated a remarkable organization of the Church’s catechesis. Thanks to the work of holy bishops and theologians such as St. Peter Canisius, St. Charles Borromeo, St. Turibius of Mongrovejo or St. Robert Bellarmine, it occasioned the publication of numerous catechisms.
So by referencing the Catechism of Trent, the CCC excludes itself from you consideration. You’ll find that almost all modern Church documents reference document (including the Bible) that are at least as old as the Catechism of Trent. The continuity of Church teaching isn’t a problem. It’s one of the signs the Church is Christ’s Church.

Pax
Are you serious? Do you just want an argument? First you accuse me of comparing motherhood to the occupation of construction and now you are accusing me of discounting the bible??? You wanted to cite the catechism and you cited something from a cathechism that was written in 1566!!! Yes our current catechism cites parts of it but not all of it. You brought up something that is not in our current catechism. Why wouldn’t you use a more recent catechism. For example women are no longer required to veil because it is no longer in the catechism. I’m sure you understand this concept.
 
Are you serious? Do you just want an argument? First you accuse me of comparing motherhood to the occupation of construction and now you are accusing me of discounting the bible??? You wanted to cite the catechism and you cited something from a cathechism that was written in 1566!!! Yes our current catechism cites parts of it but not all of it. You brought up something that is not in our current catechism. Why wouldn’t you use a more recent catechism. For example women are no longer required to veil because it is no longer in the catechism. I’m sure you understand this concept.
The entire deposit of faith is not in the CCC. So while I agree that women are no longer required to veil at Mass, I disagree that is because it’s not in the Catechism. Actually, the requirement to veil was changed before the CCC was published, and it could be reinstituted without issuing a new Catechism.

My intent is not to aggravate you. My point is simply that what is old is not necessarily bad or irrelevant.

Pax Christi
 
The entire deposit of faith is not in the CCC. So while I agree that women are no longer required to veil at Mass, I disagree that is because it’s not in the Catechism. Actually, the requirement to veil was changed before the CCC was published, and it could be reinstituted without issuing a new Catechism.

My intent is not to aggravate you. My point is simply that what is old is not necessarily bad or irrelevant.

Pax Christi
:rolleyes:

Ludy, I feel for you.
 
Well at least your not going back to 1566 here ;). I think Pope Leo XIII is being more balanced than you give him credit for. He clearly favors women working at home but notice he does not say that a woman can’t or should not work outside of the home. He only says that woman are not suited for certain occupations. And says that woman are better at housework. You could also say men are better suited for construction because of reasons x,y and z. That would not mean that men should only seek out an occupation in construction.

I will add that opinions of the nature of women have changed overtime. It was once believed that women were not as smart as men because their brains were slightly smaller. We now know that size does not matter it has to do with the makeup of the brain. It has also been a common belief that women were morally weaker than men (usually citing Eve). Put these two false beliefs together and the nature of women seems more childlike and in need of guidance, not able to be independent etc…
Correct. And yes, times DO change. At least Pope Leo is from the 1800’s instead of the 1500’s. 😉

I’m not sure why this poster is only citing the old stuff (oh wait, yes I do).

It would be more conducive to cite a more current pope of our times, such as JPII. He had an awful LOT to say about women and about women’s vocations… 😃
 
I notice that the opponents of Portrait and Dan are often heavy on emotion and light on logic.
 
I notice that the opponents of Portrait and Dan are often heavy on emotion and light on logic.
Logic being the fall of the family is all women’s fault for not being house wives, and we should read the catechism from the 1500 rather than the current catechism, and we should pay attention to the pope from the 1800 verses our latest blessed pope? 🙂
 
Logic being an inferentially-related series of factually supported premises that, point-by-point, validly conclude a post which charitably addresses all the actual arguments of your would-be interlocutors; instead of a mere straw caricature of such interlocutors’ arguments that’s somewhat smugly swung-at by blank assertions and mindlessly mocked via trivial appeals to the hidden feelings and assumptions of those who clearly already agree with you.

Anything else will only serve to poison the well and deteriorate the debate. (See, e.g.: the last several attempts by Walking_Home to silence Portrait.)
 
Logic being the fall of the family is all women’s fault for not being house wives, and we should read the catechism from the 1500 rather than the current catechism, and we should pay attention to the pope from the 1800 verses our latest blessed pope? 🙂
Not only the fall of the family but the fall of everything good and the cause of everything bad. :rolleyes: 😃

btw, I knew you meant Lucy in the above post. I was just laughing at how the whole debate.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top