Where is Catholicism in the Bible?

[elvisman]

you know I read this whole thread…and posters are asking questions of the OP and he is just ignoring them and throwing out more garbage that he picked up from some website

I know. I’ve seen and heard this a million times. I just thought he MIGHT have the character to answer at least one point . . .

 

[Mannyfit75]

That’s exactly what I was saying. People shouldn’t be trying to talk to Mary. Jesus said to pray to the father.

Asking for intercession, or petition a prayer isn’t divination. Praying to Mary doesn’t take us away from Jesus.

The prayer itself is Biblical.

Douy Rheims Bible: Luke 1:28-29 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29

Luke 1:42-43 And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners. Now and at the hour of our death. Amen. Mother of God derives from Council of Ephesus which defined Mary as the theoketos (not sure if that is the right spelling) and state that Jesus is God.

There is no absent of God in the prayer itself. A lot of Non-Catholic Christians claim it takes away from Jesus, but we clearly see that it does not.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Your scriptures aren’t enough proof to me. someone else was quoting scriptures from revelations and if was going to trust anything it would be that, but revelations is to hard for me to understand right now. I haven’t had a chance to study it that well yet. I need better proof.

Allan, if you are a fundamentalist evangelical (it appears you are) whom is reasonably young in his faith, it would behoove you to grow spiritually and theologically before trying to take on all the different points you’ve listed at least at this forum… These are reasonable questions on your part, but really a forum that has a little more balance between Catholic and non catholics may help you see things from both sides better.
He is worthy to be sought!
Simon
psst. Revelation has no (s)

 

[Karin]

I know. I’ve seen and heard this a million times. I just thought he MIGHT have the character to answer at least one point . . .

wishful thinking

 

[santaro75]

I don’t see it anywhere. And if it’s not in the bible, its false doctrine. In the Bible, there is no mention of Pope, Bishop, or Mass, or most of things that Catholics talk about. Who was greater? Jesus or Peter. Who’s greater Jesus or the Pope? Who’s greater Jesus or Mary? Even Paul said for people to stop following Peter, Paul, or John, but to follow Jesus. Jesus didn’t say anything about Peter being the foundation of the Catholic Church, but the rock of God’s Church. I challenge Catholics to think about why they believe what they believe and try to back it up with the King James Version of the Bible. Everything else is just false doctrine or heresy.

flame bait

 

[Mannyfit75]

I guess Allan doesn’t really believe in Bible Alone. Because Bible alone states, we should interpret the Bible ourselves without any outside aid.

We can tell him, “It is My interpretation.” If they don’t accept our interpretation of the Bible, Sola Scriptura falls apart.

 

[Allan1972]

Allan,

I hope you read the citations I provided regarding communion of saints.

The Communion Saints unites us with the saints in heaven. When Saints die in the state of Grace they are alive in Christ. Saints are not dead.

Just as I asked my mother and brother to pray for me. I can ask the saints in heaven who is with Jesus to pray for me as well. We do not put the saints or Mary above Jesus at all.

There is nothing in the teachings of the Catholic Church that actually declares that Mary or the saints is above Jesus.

Jesus is only our One Mediator to the Father. This union of the Communion of Saints truly makes us one with the Holy Family of God, the Father.

Remember Jesus called God Our Father. Through baptism, Jesus is our brother. When Jesus gave his mother to John at the cross, he gave the entire Church his own mother, Mary.

In fact, the Bible states the following; "When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

The gospel writer did not gave the name of the disciple. Tradition states that Jesus gave his mother to John. The reason for not naming the apostles is that Jesus gave us his mother.

I consider Mary, my spiritual mother. The Church is a Holy Family of God. God, as Our Father, Jesus as our Brother, Mary as Our Mother,

I think that is making a large leap from Jesus calling her his brothers mother to saying she was the Mother of God. Jesus was the Son of God. I’ve already said it before, but I’ll say it again. Mother of God makes it sound like Mother of the Father. But even if she was the Mother of God it doesn’t make her the Queen of the Kingdon of God like someone else said.

Queen is not scriptual. I’m not going to except anything that’s not from the Bible.

 

[Allan1972]

You just don’t understand. Before the Incarnation it made no sense to talk about God having a mother, any more than it makes sense to talk about the wetness of fire. God’s nature simply did not allow for having a mother. But in the Incarnation God has united His divine nature with human nature, and at that point He becomes capable of having a mother, and that mother is Mary. Mary is not the mother of the Father or of the Holy Spirit because they are not Incarnate and thus their natures do not allow for a mother. But Jesus, who is fully and completely God, does have a mother. To deny that Mary is the mother of God is to deny the divinity of Jesus Christ. Why would any Christian do that?

How does denying her the title Mother of God deny Jesus his divintiy?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I think that is making a large leap from Jesus calling her his brothers mother to saying she was the Mother of God. Jesus was the Son of God. I’ve already said it before, but I’ll say it again. Mother of God makes it sound like Mother of the Father. But even if she was the Mother of God it doesn’t make her the Queen of the Kingdon of God like someone else said.

Queen is not scriptual. I’m not going to except anything that’s not from the Bible.

Mother of God, means that Mary, is the Mother of God the Son. You just don’t understand the concept of the Trinity and the mystery of Jesus Christ.

Queen is Scripture. In Revelation 1:1-5

“And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars,And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems: 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.”

The woman gave birth to male child who will rule all nations with a rod of iron. This woman is Mary, she gave birth to Jesus.

In the OT, Jewish Kings had mothers as their Queens. Jesus is part of that tradition. So he likewise, made Mary his Queen Mother.

2 Tim 4:8 - Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.

James 1:12 - those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.

1 Peter 5:4 - when the chief Shepherd is manifested we will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Rev. 2:10 - Jesus will give the faithful unto death the crown of life. Jesus gave Mary His Mother the crown of life.

Rev. 12:1 - Mary, the “woman,” is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church.

Wis. 5:16 - we will receive a glorious crown and a beautiful diadem from the hand of the Lord. Mary is with Jesus forever crowned in His glory.

 

[Mannyfit75]

How does denying her the title Mother of God deny Jesus his divintiy?

To deny Mary as the Mother of God is to be guilty of old heresy called Nectorianism. Nestorianism is the Christian doctrine that Jesus exists as two persons, the man Jesus and the divine Son of God, or Logos, rather than as a unified person. This heresy deny the title, Mother of God.

Nestorianism originated in the Church in the 5th century out of an attempt to rationally explain and understand the incarnation of the divine Logos, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity as the man Jesus Christ. Nestorianism taught that the human and divine essences of Christ are separate and that there are two persons, the man Jesus Christ and the divine Logos, which dwelt in the man. In consequence, Nestorians rejected such terminology as “God suffered” or “God was crucified”, because the humanity of Jesus Christ which suffered is separate from his divinity. Likewise, they rejected the term Theotokos (Giver of birth to God/Mother of God) as a title of the Virgin Mary, suggesting instead the title Christotokos (Giver of birth to Christ/Mother of Christ), because in their opinion Mary gave birth to only the human person of Jesus and not the divine.

Nectorianism was condemned as a heresy by the Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D.

 

[Allan1972]

Mary is the mother of Jesus.

Jesus is God the Son.

Mary is the Mother of God the Son

contraction of that becomes

Mary is Mother of God

Mary is NOT Mother of God the Father

It is only the **Protestant misguided assumption **that Mary is Mother of God the Father via the Mother of God title.

Jesus is not God the Son. Write it right. He is the

Son of God

Mary is the Mother of the Son of God. Just by switching the words around people easily decieve themselves.

“5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him” Matthew 6:5

Catholics have the same problem that the priests and scribes had in the Bible. It is the teachings of men.

“He(Jesus) answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.” Mark 7:6

 

[Mannyfit75]

Jesus is not God the Son. Write it right. He is the

Son of God

Mary is the Mother of the Son of God. Just by switching the words around people easily decieve themselves.

“5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites 2are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him” Matthew 6:5

Catholics have the same problem that the priests and scribes had in the Bible. It is the teachings of men.

“He(Jesus) answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.” Mark 7:6

Who gave you the power to condemn our priests? You likewise twist your own Scripture.

2 Peter 15-16 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

The Scribes and Pharisees negate God. The Catholic Church gave us the Bible and added the 27 NT text into the canon of Scripture.

Tell me, my friend. Where is a list of books that is consider inspired in the Bible?

 

[Norseman82]

Thanks for stopping by Allan. Hope you stay awhile.

Could you clear up something for me?

Can you show me where in the bible that it says that if something isn’t in the bible it is a false doctrine.

Thanks, have a good one.

John

Hi Alan,

This is a very important question that goes to the heart of our differences. Would you please let us know where in the Bible it says that it has to say so in the Bible? I believe that until this is cleared up we will get nowhere. (If I missed your answer, I apologize; I do realize that some posts have been deleted previously).

I also want to address the notion of Mary being the mother of Jesus but not the mother of God. If Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is God, then the mathematical principle of transitivity logically means that Mary is the mother of God. To say otherwisde logically means that either Mary is not Jesus’ mother or Jesus is not God (Arian heresy), or that Jesus is a spiritual schizophrenic (which I believe is the basis of the Nestorian heresy).

 

[Allan1972]

A typical dodge.

When one makes an effort one need only state. “It is not enough”.

(Edited by Moderator)

Church and Military do not mix. Jesus said not to resist evil. Which means love those who hate and do all kinds of evil, and if someone hits, let them hit the other cheek.

I don’t care how much latin you know.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You never heard of the term Church Militant. I thought you were educated.

The meaning of Church Militant means.

The Christian Church, or Church Universal, is traditionally divided into:

* the Church Militant (Ecclesia Militans), comprising Christians who are living,
* the Church Triumphant (Ecclesia Triumphans), comprising those who are in Heaven, and
* the Church Suffering (Ecclesia Penitens) or Church Expectant (Ecclesia Expectans), comprising those Christians presently in Purgatory. This last term is used mainly in Roman Catholicism.

These terms are often used in the context of the doctrine of the Communion of Saints; although Christians may be physically separated from each other by the barrier of death, they nonetheless remain united to each other in one Church, and support each other in prayer.

The Latin word militans has a primary meaning of “serving as a soldier, military”, but it acquired a secondary meaning of “to struggle, to make an effort”, which is the intended sense here. Christians on earth (the Church Militant) are still struggling against sin in order that, when they die, they might go to heaven and be members of the Church Triumphant, those who have triumphed over sin. However, if this struggle is successful, but not completely so, then after death they temporarily become members of the Church Suffering before ultimately joining the Church Triumphant.

The Catholic Church commemorates the Church Triumphant and the Church Suffering on two consecutive days: All Saints Day on November 1 (the Church Triumphant), and All Souls Day on November 2 (the Church Suffering).

 

[Nicene]

I think that is making a large leap from Jesus calling her his brothers mother to saying she was the Mother of God. Jesus was the Son of God. I’ve already said it before, but I’ll say it again. Mother of God makes it sound like Mother of the Father. But even if she was the Mother of God it doesn’t make her the Queen of the Kingdon of God like someone else said.

Queen is not scriptual. I’m not going to except anything that’s not from the Bible.

Actually it is. Jesus revealed sacred scripture through typology and allegory; that is; persons, places, things, events and institutions prefigured in the OT that become NT realities. Adam was a type of Christ for example (Romans)

Solomon is also a type of Christ. In 1 Kings:

13: Then Adoni’jah the son of Haggith came to Bathshe’ba the mother of Solomon. And she said, “Do you come peaceably?” He said, “Peaceably.”
14: Then he said, “I have something to say to you.” She said, “Say on.”
15: He said, “You know that the kingdom was mine, and that all Israel fully expected me to reign; however the kingdom has turned about and become my brother’s, for it was his from the LORD.
16: And now I have one request to make of you; do not refuse me.” She said to him, “Say on.”
17: And he said, “Pray ask King Solomon – he will not refuse you – to give me Ab’ishag the Shu’nammite as my wife.”
18: Bathshe’ba said, “Very well; I will speak for you to the king.”
19: So Bathshe’ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni’jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right.
20: Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.”

Bathshe’ba is the Queen mother of Solomon. Jesus is the new and everlasting King, Mary is the Queen mother. Bathshe’ba petitions her son the King (above).

John 1:1: On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there;
2: Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples.
3: When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
4: And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.”
5: His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

Mary petitions her son, the King (above).

Rev 11:19: Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.
12:1: And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
2: she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.

The above represents, Isreal, the Church, and Mary.

The actual word for Mary is technically Theotokos, which means God bearer. And that she certainly did, unless of course one does not believe Jesus to be God.

You’ll also Find Mary and Jesus typology in Johns creation week opening. (Personal opinion, John is the most artistic from and aestetic point of view)

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Mannyfit75]

I can tell just by your user name, that you’re perverted.

Church and Military do not mix. Jesus said not to resist evil. Which means love those who hate and do all kinds of evil, and if someone hits, let them hit the other cheek.

I don’t care how much latin you know.

Again, this is the second time you post an uncharitable remark. You use the word perverted. You are close of losing your posting previledges on this forum. Must I remind you Rules of Conduct # 7 again?

1. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.

 

[lak611]

Jesus is not God the Son. Write it right. He is the
Son of God
/QUOTE]

So then that means you don’t believe Jesus is divine. Belief in the divinity of Jesus is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY in order to be a Christian.

 

[Nicene]

So fundamentalists aren’t in a spiritual warfare? It is throughout the gospel. Paul makes explicit reference to it:

1 Cor 10:3: For though we live in the world we are not carrying on a worldly war,
4: for the weapons of our warfare are not worldly but have divine power to destroy strongholds.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Allan1972]

Mother of God, means that Mary, is the Mother of God the Son. You just don’t understand the concept of the Trinity and the mystery of Jesus Christ.

Queen is Scripture. In Revelation 1:1-5

“And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars,And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems: 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.”

The woman gave birth to male child who will rule all nations with a rod of iron. This woman is Mary, she gave birth to Jesus.

I never argued against that.

In the OT, Jewish Kings had mothers as their Queens. Jesus is part of that tradition. So he likewise, made Mary his Queen Mother.where is the scripture for this?

2 Tim 4:8 - Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.IT doesn’t say anything about mary in this scripture you’re just adding that

James 1:12 - those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.

**she didn’t bring eternal life to the world, God did.

For God so loved the world that he sent his only Son that whosoever believes in him, shall have everlasting life**

1 Peter 5:4 - when the chief Shepherd is manifested we will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Rev. 2:10 - Jesus will give the faithful unto death the crown of life. Jesus gave Mary His Mother the crown of life.

Rev. 12:1 - Mary, the “woman,” is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church. ** That might be posible, ok but you’re not being completely honest. you added somethings to these scripures that aren’t there.**

Wis. 5:16 - we will receive a glorious crown and a beautiful diadem from the hand of the Lord. Mary is with Jesus forever crowned in His glory.