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Vico
Guest
It’s speculation. Another dimension can mean another place. See:
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BlackFriar
Guest
Exactly so, fully harmonising with Greek cosmology.In later times the Jewish developed seven heavens ideas.
The 7 heavens correspond to each of the 7 planets scientifically visible to the naked eye indicating that there must be rotating, around the earth, concentric clear crystalline ethereal spheres on which the planet was fixed.
The Babylonians thought there were only three heavens, and these three planets were on the same sphere but skating past each other rather than being fixed.
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FollowChrist34
Guest
Mystery. We have no idea. Science only studies the material world. For some reason this leads people to believe, and I mean believe, that no other realm can exist. Which is absolutely absurd. We don’t even understand the universe we are in. I read about some string theory that has us up to 11 dimensions. We have no idea what ‘dark matter’ is, which compromises something like 80% of the universe. We were the ones who came up with the name - dark matter - I love it.
I think on a mystical level we are already experiencing both heaven and hell at different times, same as we experience the presence of Christ at certain moments in our life. I also believe we know which one we belong in - the one we spend the most time in, speaking metaphysically. We know a lot more of all that than we admit to ourselves consciously - a sort of Platonic knowledge.
I think on a mystical level we are already experiencing both heaven and hell at different times, same as we experience the presence of Christ at certain moments in our life. I also believe we know which one we belong in - the one we spend the most time in, speaking metaphysically. We know a lot more of all that than we admit to ourselves consciously - a sort of Platonic knowledge.
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on_the_hill
Guest
What century are we living in?
Hell is a place in the middle of the Earth?
Hell is on Venus?
What?!
Heaven is up in the sky?
Next thing you know, we’ll be telling people that ducks spontaneously generate from apple seeds, or something like that.
Original sin is transmitted via imperfect semen? Really?
Getting our theology lessons from YouTube?
Are we Catholics or . . . living in a Mother Goose Nursery Rhyme?
Hell is a place in the middle of the Earth?
Hell is on Venus?
What?!
Heaven is up in the sky?
Next thing you know, we’ll be telling people that ducks spontaneously generate from apple seeds, or something like that.
Original sin is transmitted via imperfect semen? Really?
Getting our theology lessons from YouTube?
Are we Catholics or . . . living in a Mother Goose Nursery Rhyme?
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Hope1960
Guest
Fr. Ray Ryland disagrees with Jimmy Akin
What about Enoch and Elijah? Father Ray Ryland, PhD, JD The Catholic Answer
4/22/2014
What about Enoch and Elijah?
Q. I firmly believe what the Church teaches concerning the Blessed Virgin, that she was assumed into heaven. This means that there are only two glorified bodies in heaven, that of Jesus and His mother, Mary. What happened to Enoch (see Gn 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kgs 2:11)? Am I right in assuming both of them died, since no one can see the face of God and live?
P. Bayona, via email
A. Here’s a reply from TCA columnist Father Ray Ryland, Ph.D., J.D:
In Genesis 5:24, we read, “Enoch walked with God, and he was no longer here, for God took him.” This seems simply to say he died. Meanwhile, 2 Kings 2:11 records, “As they [Elijah and Elisha] walked on conversing, a flaming chariot and flaming horses came between them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.”
Neither Enoch nor Elijah was taken into the heaven of God’s dwelling place. Three different uses of the word “heaven” occur in sacred Scripture. Sometimes it refers to the atmosphere which surrounds our planet (see Gn 7:1-12, RSV: at the flood ”the windows of the heavens were opened”). Sometimes “heaven” designates outer space (Ps 8:3, RSV: “When I look at your heavens . . . the moon and the stars which you have established”), or the word can mean God’s dwelling place (2 Cor 12:2: “the third heaven”). Which meaning of the term “heaven” is intended in 2 Kings 2:11 regarding Elijah’s leaving the scene? Elijah was not taken into God’s dwelling. Consider this: When Elijah left the scene, the sons of the prophets evidently believed Elijah had been taken to another place. At their urging Elisha allowed 50 men to search for Elijah for three days, but in vain. Now note the scriptural chronology. After Elijah’s disappearance, Elisha had an encounter with Jehoshaphat, king of Judah (2 Kgs 3:11-20). The latter was succeeded by his equally wicked son Jehoram. Several years into Jehoram’s reign “he received a letter from the prophet Elijah” (2 Chr 21:12). God had simply removed Elijah to another place, after which, of course, he eventually died.
What about Enoch and Elijah? Father Ray Ryland, PhD, JD The Catholic Answer
4/22/2014
What about Enoch and Elijah?
Q. I firmly believe what the Church teaches concerning the Blessed Virgin, that she was assumed into heaven. This means that there are only two glorified bodies in heaven, that of Jesus and His mother, Mary. What happened to Enoch (see Gn 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kgs 2:11)? Am I right in assuming both of them died, since no one can see the face of God and live?
P. Bayona, via email
A. Here’s a reply from TCA columnist Father Ray Ryland, Ph.D., J.D:
In Genesis 5:24, we read, “Enoch walked with God, and he was no longer here, for God took him.” This seems simply to say he died. Meanwhile, 2 Kings 2:11 records, “As they [Elijah and Elisha] walked on conversing, a flaming chariot and flaming horses came between them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.”
Neither Enoch nor Elijah was taken into the heaven of God’s dwelling place. Three different uses of the word “heaven” occur in sacred Scripture. Sometimes it refers to the atmosphere which surrounds our planet (see Gn 7:1-12, RSV: at the flood ”the windows of the heavens were opened”). Sometimes “heaven” designates outer space (Ps 8:3, RSV: “When I look at your heavens . . . the moon and the stars which you have established”), or the word can mean God’s dwelling place (2 Cor 12:2: “the third heaven”). Which meaning of the term “heaven” is intended in 2 Kings 2:11 regarding Elijah’s leaving the scene? Elijah was not taken into God’s dwelling. Consider this: When Elijah left the scene, the sons of the prophets evidently believed Elijah had been taken to another place. At their urging Elisha allowed 50 men to search for Elijah for three days, but in vain. Now note the scriptural chronology. After Elijah’s disappearance, Elisha had an encounter with Jehoshaphat, king of Judah (2 Kgs 3:11-20). The latter was succeeded by his equally wicked son Jehoram. Several years into Jehoram’s reign “he received a letter from the prophet Elijah” (2 Chr 21:12). God had simply removed Elijah to another place, after which, of course, he eventually died.
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Hope1960
Guest
Then where IS heaven and hell?
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Hope1960
Guest
So do YOU think heaven and hell are in some other realm undiscovered? Surely you have some ideas.
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on_the_hill
Guest
I have no idea.
But I can tell you that I never in my life believed they were actual physical places like inside the ground or up in the sky. They’re states of being, if anything. The best explanation I got about Hell was from a priest who said Hell is eternal separation from God.
It’s not inside a volcano where demons poke people with giant three pronged cocktail forks.
Do you honestly believe that they’re tangible, physical, geographic places?
But I can tell you that I never in my life believed they were actual physical places like inside the ground or up in the sky. They’re states of being, if anything. The best explanation I got about Hell was from a priest who said Hell is eternal separation from God.
It’s not inside a volcano where demons poke people with giant three pronged cocktail forks.
Do you honestly believe that they’re tangible, physical, geographic places?
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Hope1960
Guest
I don’t know about hell, nut heaven has to be a place because Jesus and Mary’s bodies (and some say Enoch, Elijah and Moses) are there; and bodies need to be in a place.
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FollowChrist34
Guest
Yes, more than likely. I think they could be unknowable realms as opposed to ‘undiscoverable.’ Meaning we can’t discover or know them in this world -except perhaps through metaphysics, prayer. You can’t say they are on top of the universe or to the west of it or to the east, you know what I mean? God is love. What does that mean? They are totally different states of being. St. Augustine believed hell was the absence of good, God, etc. Emptiness. Heaven is the fullness of life in the Trinity. Let’s face it - you go through a pretty thorough transformation before you get there. What’s left of you after death goes there.
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Hope1960
Guest
Realms where Jesus and Mary’s (or Enoch, Elijah and Moses, who aren’t glorified) bodies can physically be?
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FollowChrist34
Guest
Why not? Jesus and Mary I don’t think sit at the kitchen table with coffee and eggs, right? I don’t think of heaven and hell as material.
The resurrection of course presents another issue - God will resurrect ‘all of creation’. Will that be material in the sense we know it? I will be surprised if so, but I can handle that. I think of it more as a perfected state. The lamb lies down with the lion under the cedars of Lebanon. Make of it what you will. Different.
The resurrection of course presents another issue - God will resurrect ‘all of creation’. Will that be material in the sense we know it? I will be surprised if so, but I can handle that. I think of it more as a perfected state. The lamb lies down with the lion under the cedars of Lebanon. Make of it what you will. Different.
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Hope1960
Guest
So these bodies are just…somewhere just floating around?
I mean, like I said, they have to physically BE somewhere
I mean, like I said, they have to physically BE somewhere
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FollowChrist34
Guest
They are not bodies in a material sense. The way we are. What and where they are exceeds human comprehension. You can’t know it by this universe’s standards. You cannot use material standards to think about Jesus and Mary in Eternity.
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FollowChrist34
Guest
Where is 2+2=4? Mathematical laws? Do they ‘exist’ in this universe?
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Hope1960
Guest
I agree but then what about those who disagree withFr. Ryland?
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Hope1960
Guest
Math has always been over my head
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FollowChrist34
Guest
Mine too. But I am ok with that. I feel the same way about Heaven and Hell. I find the fact that 2+2=4 to be incredibly reassuring. Sorry, I don’t know what you are referring to with Fr. Ryland so I cannot address it.
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Hope1960
Guest
In my post #84, it was a q&a with the late Fr. Ray Ryland
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BlackFriar
Guest
Typically when a longstanding scientific assumption (be it a cosmology or otherwise) is used as a vehicle to explain or even support a spiritual truth that cannot be proven … when that “scientific” worldview gets overturned then mythologising typically occurs.
Mythologising in this context means that the scientific words tend to be retained, as does the system they belong to. However the whole system gets reinterpreted onto a more spiritualised, non literal plain.
So English “heaven” no longer also primarily means physical sky (as it still does in Latin and some other living languages). “Hell” (or better “Hades”) no longer primarily means under the earth in English but still is the realm of the dead wherever that may be.
I see nothing wrong with using these nursery rhyme words as you call them.
Even the 8 year olds in my Sunday School class know not to take them literally, but the literal meaning is a great teaching aid for helping them, and us, understand the relationship of these words to each other at a spiritual theological level. They know the Holy Spirit is not a dove nor a piece of fire, but the HS does cause a burning love and is the source of innocence and purity and a sign of Divine participation. They know God the Father is not a father nor an old man with a white beard - but they know He is all Wise and the source of all life and cares for His Creation.
Mythologising in this context means that the scientific words tend to be retained, as does the system they belong to. However the whole system gets reinterpreted onto a more spiritualised, non literal plain.
So English “heaven” no longer also primarily means physical sky (as it still does in Latin and some other living languages). “Hell” (or better “Hades”) no longer primarily means under the earth in English but still is the realm of the dead wherever that may be.
I see nothing wrong with using these nursery rhyme words as you call them.
Even the 8 year olds in my Sunday School class know not to take them literally, but the literal meaning is a great teaching aid for helping them, and us, understand the relationship of these words to each other at a spiritual theological level. They know the Holy Spirit is not a dove nor a piece of fire, but the HS does cause a burning love and is the source of innocence and purity and a sign of Divine participation. They know God the Father is not a father nor an old man with a white beard - but they know He is all Wise and the source of all life and cares for His Creation.
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