where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[Cursilista]

VI. The Church is Hierarchical
Matt. 16:18; 18:18 - Jesus uses the word “ecclesia” only twice in the New Testament Scriptures, which demonstrates that Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

Acts 20:17,28 - Paul refers to both the elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) and the bishops (“episkopoi”) of the Church. Both are ordained leaders within the hierarchical structure of the Church.

1 Cor. 12:28 - God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. As a loving Father, God gives His children the freedom and authority to act with charity and justice to bring about His work of salvation.

Eph. 4:11 - the Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church. The Church is not an invisible entity with an invisible foundation.

Phil. 1:1 - Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 - Christ’s Church has bishops (“episkopoi”) who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 - Christ’s Church also has elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) who serve the bishops.

1 Tim. 3:8 - Christ’s Church also has deacons (“diakonoi”). Thus, Jesus Christ’s Church has a hierarchy of authority - bishops, priests and deacons, who can all trace their lineage back to Peter and the apostles.

Exodus 28:1 and 19:6 – shows the three offices of the Old Testament priesthood (1). high priest – Aaron (Ex. 28:1); (2). Ministerial priests – Aaron’s sons (Ex. 19:6; 28:1); and (3). Universal priests – Israel (Ex. 19:6). The New Testament priesthood also has three offices: (1) High Priest – Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1); (2) Ministerial priests – the ordained bishops and priests (Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,8; 5:17; Titus 1:7); and (3) Universal priests - all the baptized (1 Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6).

 

[tweetymom]

VI. The Church is Hierarchical
Matt. 16:18; 18:18 - Jesus uses the word “ecclesia” only twice in the New Testament Scriptures, which demonstrates that Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

Acts 20:17,28 - Paul refers to both the elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) and the bishops (“episkopoi”) of the Church. Both are ordained leaders within the hierarchical structure of the Church.

1 Cor. 12:28 - God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. As a loving Father, God gives His children the freedom and authority to act with charity and justice to bring about His work of salvation.

Eph. 4:11 - the Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church. The Church is not an invisible entity with an invisible foundation.

Phil. 1:1 - Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 - Christ’s Church has bishops (“episkopoi”) who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 - Christ’s Church also has elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) who serve the bishops.

1 Tim. 3:8 - Christ’s Church also has deacons (“diakonoi”). Thus, Jesus Christ’s Church has a hierarchy of authority - bishops, priests and deacons, who can all trace their lineage back to Peter and the apostles.

Exodus 28:1 and 19:6 – shows the three offices of the Old Testament priesthood (1). high priest – Aaron (Ex. 28:1); (2). Ministerial priests – Aaron’s sons (Ex. 19:6; 28:1); and (3). Universal priests – Israel (Ex. 19:6). The New Testament priesthood also has three offices: (1) High Priest – Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1); (2) Ministerial priests – the ordained bishops and priests (Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,8; 5:17; Titus 1:7); and (3) Universal priests - all the baptized (1 Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6).

Thank you for all the scriptures have read them a thousand times and I do not see Catholic there. Just what you and others anf the church think. They are writteen for all believers in Christ.

 

[tweetymom]

Cont:

Phil. 22
Col. 3:15

St Cyprian (c. 250AD) God is one and Christ is one, and one is his Church and the faith is one, and his people welded together y the goue of concord into solid unity of body. Untiy cannot be rent asunder nor can the one body of the Church through the division of its structure be divided into separate pieces (on the un ity of the Church 23)

Be back

Take your time rinnie. There is not one scripture that say only the CC is true. All believers in Christ are true.

 

[schaick]

I am going to rephrase that

Where Christian see unity in the one faith of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and diversity in celebrating that faith, Catholics simply see division and confusion.

 

[tweetymom]

I am going to rephrase that

Where Christian see unity in the one faith of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and diversity in celebrating that faith, Catholics simply see division and confusion.

 

[CMatt25]

I am going to rephrase that

Where Christian see unity in the one faith of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and diversity in celebrating that faith, Catholics simply see division and confusion.

 

[CMatt25]

I can’t help you on this one, rinnie. I have to go with Tweety. You will not be able to find a statement in Scripture that defines the Church as One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. These four marks of the church, though defined during the NT era, were not published as such until the next century.

the next century!?

 

[CMatt25]

Not when it is in direct opposition to Scripture and Church authority.

But according to whom? The interpretation of Scripture by the CC, the same men who interpret they have authoritative infallibilty. Can’t you see? It is only what we believe.

 

[AlaricTeudisson]

Hey everybody. Hopefully this will not be a non sequitur to the thread.

I am thoroughly reformed in my theology. From a Catholic perspective I understand that makes me thoroughly heretical. In the past, it angered me that Catholics would not expand their understanding of the true church of Christ to include me (an Anglican).
But, I read something recently that has made me soften my position on that and look at it differently. The writer argued that we (Protestants, not of the liberal Christian variety) should not push or be angry that Catholics take an antithetical position on who/what composes the true church. By antithetical I mean the Catholic position of saying that they are right and everybody else is wrong.

His argument was that orthodox Christians need the Catholic Church taking a strong stance on absolute truth. (Hopefully my eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters will not be to upset with me using the term orthodox with a little “o” for creedal Christians) Anything less than this strong antithetical position by the Catholic Church places worldwide Christianity at significant risk to the storms of relativism that are battering the modern psyche. By having the Catholic Church uphold the belief in moral and theological absolutes, despite our doctrinal differences, all true creedal Christians are strengthened both now and in the future.

The doctrinal differences between Catholics and Protestants are real and large. I am not minimizing that. But, the writer made a good point that from a Protestant perspective we disagree with the Catholic Church mainly over perceived additions to doctrine. The Catholic Church does not minimize or deconstruct Jesus as liberal “Christian” theology does. The Catholic Church upholds him as the only Son of God, second person in the trinity, and calls him Lord of all creation and the only means to salvation. The Catholic Church is being an anchor in the stormy seas of modern theology. If they weaken their position on being the True church, they risk weakening their position on other hugely important things (like the nature of Christ.) Therefore, despite our differences, we should thank God for the Catholic Church and continue to pray for the one holy catholic and apostolic church just like the Nicene Creed states even if we view that line very differently.

I thought this was a very thought provoking position. Just my two cents.
Jeff

 

[rinnie]

One of the first rules of interpreting Scrpture is placing it in context.

Celebrating diversity:
**1 Corinthians **
14Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

Our one leader is Jesus alone, unity in our faith in Jesus:
John 10
14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.

John 17
17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

We must accept the diversity of our fellow believers in Christ:
Romans 15
5May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
7Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. 8For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jewson behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs 9so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written:

Anyone saying that all Christians are not in the one body of Christ:
Romans 16
17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.

What part of the scripture do you feel I took out of context. This is the teaching of my Church.

 

[rinnie]

Next the Church is Apostolic, which means authoritative. (WE get our teachings from the Apostles who get it from Jesus).

Scripture

Matt 18:18
Matt. 18:17
Luke 10:16
John 2023
l Cor. 11:24

St Irenaeus (200AD). THe Church having received this preaching and this faith although she is disseminated throughout the whole world yet guarded it as if she occupied but ONE house. She likewise believes these thing just as if she one would and one and the same heart, and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possed but one mouth (against Heresies 1,20,2)

 

[rinnie]

Next the Church is Holy

Eph 5:25-27 Christ made the Church holy and perfect.

 

[rinnie]

The Church is Catholic.

Acts 9:31

Throughout all is translated greek into Ekklesia, Katholos or universal or the Catholic Church. All translate into the same meaning

Think I covered it all!

 

[rinnie]

I agree with this!

nor can the one body of the Church through the division of its structure be divided into separate pieces

I guess the bottom line is where Christian see unity in the one faith of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and diversity in celebrating that faith, Catholics simply see diversity.

First you tell me I took scripture out of context then you agree with me??

Whats it gonna be?

 

[elvisman]

But according to whom? The interpretation of Scripture by the CC, the same men who interpret they have authoritative infallibilty. Can’t you see? It is only what we believe.

Oh, not it’s not only what we believe.
Now you’re dabbling in moral relativism.

---

***Why ***do you accept the Church’s authority? Do you accept it because you were taught to or because it is the pillar and foundation of truth and God’s supreme authority on earth?

---

**Do you believe that Protestants – or anybody else, for that matter – can also have the ***fullness of truth? If you do – you’re completely confused ***about what truth is. Every group cannot have the truth because there is only one truth.

---

It is not true because you or I believe it – we believe it because it’s true.

 

[elvisman]

You are saying 2 different things here:

Oposition would be a contradiction or something against the Word of GOD.

Then there are traditions man-made that are not against GOD, but if the man-made tradition is more important then GOD’s tradition there is a problem.

Matthew 15
5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’ 6he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it.** Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition**. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8" ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’"

You’re wrong again – at** least **where it applies to the Catholic Church.

---

WHICH** Catholic tradition has been placed in a higher importance than “God’s tradition”?**

---

Name one Catholic tradition that we feel is more important that God’s.
What is “God’s tradition”?

 

[rev_kevin]

We all believe that there is one God. We all believe in the Holy Spirit. We all believe Jesus is the Son of God sent here to save us from out sins and to give us eternal life. What does it matter if one worships God one way and another worships him another way, the point is that we are worshiping him as the one and only God. We bicker and bicker about who is the true Chruch, who has been around the longest, etc. but we are missing one thing, we all are children of God and to bicker among eachother over silly things don’t do any of us any good and I’m sure God is not happy with our actions. We all know we will not see eye to eye on everything, which is no suprise to any of us, so why do we continue to be un-Christian like towards eachother. Just because we have different ways of worshiping, at least we are worshiping God. Would it be better if we did not worship him like so many in the world do? God is a God for everyone who accepts him.

 

[rinnie]

We all believe that there is one God. We all believe in the Holy Spirit. We all believe Jesus is the Son of God sent here to save us from out sins and to give us eternal life. What does it matter if one worships God one way and another worships him another way, the point is that we are worshiping him as the one and only God. We bicker and bicker about who is the true Chruch, who has been around the longest, etc. but we are missing one thing, we all are children of God and to bicker among eachother over silly things don’t do any of us any good and I’m sure God is not happy with our actions. We all know we will not see eye to eye on everything, which is no suprise to any of us, so why do we continue to be un-Christian like towards eachother. Just because we have different ways of worshiping, at least we are worshiping God. Would it be better if we did not worship him like so many in the world do? God is a God for everyone who accepts him.

Well Rev, at least I can see you are in a better mood today I agree with alot of what you are saying. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. But I do think Jesus left us the Church for one reason so we can all learn the same truth.

It is not God that separates us, it is unfortunately these different teachings that indeed separate us. But back to the question at hand. While it may not make a difference to you, or others is does to me. I want that Church that was founded on Christ. And the answer is indeed the Catholic Church. Jesus left it to Peter and the Apostles and can be traced back to them. Unfortunatley others have come by, and started teaching a different truth. If we all had the same truth, we would have the same Church do you not agree?

 

[elvisman]

We all believe that there is one God. We all believe in the Holy Spirit. We all believe Jesus is the Son of God sent here to save us from out sins and to give us eternal life. What does it matter if one worships God one way and another worships him another way, the point is that we are worshiping him as the one and only God. We bicker and bicker about who is the true Chruch, who has been around the longest, etc. but we are missing one thing, we all are children of God and to bicker among eachother over silly things don’t do any of us any good and I’m sure God is not happy with our actions. We all know we will not see eye to eye on everything, which is no suprise to any of us, so why do we continue to be un-Christian like towards eachother. Just because we have different ways of worshiping, at least we are worshiping God. Would it be better if we did not worship him like so many in the world do? God is a God for everyone who accepts him.

Catholics don‘t bicker about who is the oldest or the first or the only.
We KNOW we are and we defend that truth against all attacks.

---

Again** – you’re wrong if you think it doesn’t matter about whether we worship the same way – as Jesus intended it (1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Thess. 2:15, 2 Tim. 12:14, John 17:20-23).**

---

Matt. 7:22-23
**“Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ **
Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’”

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

**[SIGN]Catholics don‘t **bicker about who is the oldest or the first or the ]only.
We KNOW we are and we defend that truth against all attacks.

---

Again** – you’re wrong** if you think it doesn’t matter about whether we worship the same way – as Jesus intended it (1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Thess. 2:15, 2 Tim. 12:14, John 17:20-23).

---

Matt. 7:22-23
“Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’”

You tell em Elvis we don’t bicker we agree on our Church!! Show me one protestant Church that has the exact teachings of another Protestant church?