where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[MyRdmrLvs]

Instead of answering the question, you choose to put words in my mouth that I did not utter. I said nothing about insisting anything about you. I believe that all protestant church(es) (founded by a man other than God) - comprise the Mystical Body, the Church(es) to which Jesus is the Head and Savior. If you get the chance perhaps you could answer the question? If the catholic church, to which I belong was not founded by Jesus Christ in the 1st century…is not the historical church of Matthew 16, then please help me find the man (or men) - that founded the CC, and when? Well, I guess that’s 2 questions. LOL…

Thanks…

I apologize, I did misunderstand where you were leading with the points you were making.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

How can the Church be invisible if Jesus said You are Peter and on this Rock I will build my Church. If they Church was invivible what was Jesus talking about then.

Why did he tell Peter and the Apostles go out and spread the word and make disciples of all nations if this was something that was to be hidden?

Why did he say in the scripture:

Eph 3:21 To him be glory IN THE CHURCH to all generations for ever and ever.

Here is my very favorite. Mt.18:17 Tell it to THE CHURCH if he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH (sounds to me that as visible as you can get)

I was at the Catholic church the other day, I watched people get in their cars and drive away. I presume they were all Catholics, yet there was no gold ribbon, rope or thread, that attaching them to one another. Perhaps you are saying that the visible connection is only seem by Catholics?

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

You ARE separated brethren in Christ. I’m not denying that.
However, the key word is "separated**" - as in a divorce.
**
Protestants have chosen** to be separated from the Church - the ONLY Church established by Jesus. We pray for the homecoming of ALL to his Church so that the unity he so fervently prayed for in John 17 becomes a reality.

If I am in Christ then I am in His church. If Peter were here I would gladly submit to his authority. He is not here, nor is there sufficient evidence that He passed down his authority to the pope. So what do I have? the writings of the Apostles! I will read them and treat them as authority. what about others who also read and yet come to different conclusions? We will discuss and debate with charity as the early church did.

 

[rinnie]

I was at the Catholic church the other day, I watched people get in their cars and drive away. I presume they were all Catholics, yet there was no gold ribbon, rope or thread, that attaching them to one another. Perhaps you are saying that the visible connection is only seem by Catholics?

I don’t know. I cannot speak for all People. I just know that the Church is visible, and you yourself just said that you were at a Catholic Church and watched people drive away from it. So I would assume that it is also seen by protestants. You saw it! You just proved that its visible.

 

[rinnie]

One Body is not meant to be different churches with diferent theology. One Church and the members have diferent gifts. the members of the visible Church. the invisible Church in Heaven agrees with the visible Church here. the Mass every day in the CC is the same Mass in Heaven. the Angels and Saints in Heaven join wiht the CC Mass daily. that is what we call the Communion of Saints.

bringyou.to/apologetics/num12.htm

Amen to that. We are all Led by one Holy Spirit to one Truth, that truth can be and always has been found in the CC.

 

[elvisman]

If I am in Christ then I am in His church. If Peter were here I would gladly submit to his authority. He is not here, nor is there sufficient evidence that He passed down his authority to the pope. So what do I have? the writings of the Apostles! I will read them and treat them as authority. what about others who also read and yet come to different conclusions? We will discuss and debate with charity as the early church did.

It is an historic fact that the Catholic Church is the one Church established by Christ.

**You can argure all day long that it is not but you’d be disagreeing with some of the most respected Protestant theologians of our time - and they probably know a little more that you. They don’t deny this fact. They believe that the Church was on the right track for the first 300 years or so.

Where they err is in thinking that the Holy Spirit failed and Jesus lied because the gates of Hell prevailed against the Church - until the Protestant Revolt got it right some 1500 years later.**

If these Protestant theologians accept the Catholic Church for the first 3 centuries - then they MUST accept the well-established Apostolic Succession that took place during this tim. Irenaeus listed the Popes for the first 2 centuries in his treatise Against Heresies.

If they reject the Church after this time - then the words of Jesus should haunt them - and you:

Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

---

Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

[tweetymom]

**To which Christian church do you belong? **

I belong to the church in my heart Jesus!

 

[schaick]

It is an historic fact that the Catholic Church is the one Church established by Christ.

Are you saying the people here, the truly GOD fearing or the political organization that is the Catholic Church that tried to rule states, committed otracities, killed and excommunicated Christians, etc. ?

**You can argure all day long that it is *not ***but you’d be disagreeing with some of the most respected Protestant theologians of our time - and they probably know a little more that you. They don’t deny this fact. They believe that the Church was on the right track for the first 300 years or so.

Yes, can we figure out **when the political machine took over **and pushed the core of what was Jesus’ Church under cover?

Where they** err is in thinking that the Holy Spirit failed and Jesus lied because the gates of Hell prevailed against the Church - until the Protestant Revolt got it right some 1500 years later.

Of course Jesus’ Church prevailed a core group of truly Christian people hidden away that were finally able to come forward with the reformation. Inside the **organization that is the Catholic Church **lived Jesus’ simple “I will build my church” core group. People were fighting the power seekers the whole time and then with reformation that core group from Jesus Church was able to break free form the corrupt organization.

If these Protestant theologians accept the Catholic Church for the first 3 centuries - then they MUST accept the well-established Apostolic Succession that took place during this tim. Irenaeus listed the Popes for the first 2 centuries in his treatise Against Heresies.

The position of Pope was added at a later date. It was not a position mentioned in the first Church, the Bishops were local.

you:

Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

Jesus is speaking to the 72 He sent out here. There was no one main man except of course for Jesus!

---

Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven."

YES, absolutely, today we see the **organization that is the Catholic Church **that has been slowly evolving back into the fold of Jesus’ Church. Please note I am not talking about all the wonderful Christian people, Priest, Nuns, Elders, Popes etc. here, they were always apart of the Church. I am just speaking of the corrupted organization known as the Catholic Church.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Here is a video in defense of the CC from protestant defamation.

very interesting: tony blair, the antichrist according to protestant because tony is a Catholic.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Are you saying the people here, the truly GOD fearing or the political organization that is the Catholic Church that tried to rule states, committed otracities, killed and excommunicated Christians, etc. ?

Yes, can we figure out **when the political machine took over **and pushed the core of what was Jesus’ Church under cover?

Of course Jesus’ Church prevailed a core group of truly Christian people hidden away that were finally able to come forward with the reformation. Inside the **organization that is the Catholic Church **lived Jesus’ simple “I will build my church” core group. People were fighting the power seekers the whole time and then with reformation that core group from Jesus Church was able to break free form the corrupt organization.

The position of Pope was added at a later date. It was not a position mentioned in the first Church, the Bishops were local.

Jesus is speaking to the 72 He sent out here. There was no one main man except of course for Jesus!

YES, absolutely, today we see the **[SIGN]organization that is the Catholic Church [/SIGN]**that has been slowly evolving back into the fold of Jesus’ Church. Please note I am not talking about all the wonderful Christian people, Priest, Nuns, Elders, Popes etc. here, they were always apart of the Church. I am just speaking of the corrupted organization known as the Catholic Church.

Sorry sciack, the CC has never been an organization. The CC has always been and will always be the living Christ. We are not led by an organization, Jesus never said that. Jesus said upon this rock I will build my Church. Jesus said you are Peter and to you I leave the keys to the kingdom. Jesus said I am sending you the Advocate the HS to lead you to the fullness of the Truth. He never ever said a thing about leaving us an organization. The Holy SPirit is not an organization it is the Living Christ.

The Holy Spirit is not slowly evolving back to the fold of the CC. That would be making Jesus A liar. Jesus said I will be with you always until the end of time. Jesus said I will never leave you orphans. If Jesus did as you said, he would have not kept that promise. But as we both know we have a Father, GOd the Father that does indeed keep his promises. I do not know where you have got your information, but it was NOT from the word of OUR DEAR GOD ALMIGHTY!!

 

[rinnie]

Here is a video in defense of the CC from protestant defamation.

very interesting: tony blair, the antichrist according to protestant because tony is a Catholic.

Oh no. Now Tony is accused of being the devil now. Poor Tony. Who will be next?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Oh no. Now Tony is accused of being the devil now. Poor Tony. Who will be next?

Yep. that is what the man is trying to imply. so much nonsense. i wonder how many followers he is getting by his accusations against the CC.

we know one thing for sure while others gain members by defaming the CC, our Lord is bringing people into His Church by His Grace. Glory be to God always and always.

 

[Dokimas]

How can the Church be invisible if Jesus said You are Peter and on this Rock I will build my Church. If they Church was invivible what was Jesus talking about then. Jesus did build His church on that wonderful confession of Peter.

Why did he tell Peter and the Apostles go out and spread the word and make disciples of all nations if this was something that was to be hidden? I guess being invisible is different than that.
Why did he say in the scripture:

Eph 3:21 To him be glory IN THE CHURCH to all generations for ever and ever. Because us, the church members, are to glorify Jesus.

Here is my very favorite. Mt.18:17 Tell it to THE CHURCH if he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH (sounds to me that as visible as you can get) The church you go to in your town is very visible. I guess the idea of the church being invisible is different, isn’t it?

 

[Dokimas]

Huh??
This post makes no sense whatsoever. To you. I never declared who is saved and who is not. Never said you did.

Not every member of his Church will be saved. Of course. Simply being part of the body of Christ does NOT guarantee you heaven. So Jesus is going to cut off part of Himself? We must remain steadfast in faith and endure to the end. Scripture is very clear on that. Seems It is.

That being said - you still haven’t illustrated that the Church is invisible. Just because you can’t see that I have, doesn’t mean I haven’t. Just becasue you don’t understand, doesn’t mean the church isn’t invisible. BTW, of course part of it is visible. This false idea goes totally against Scripture. Show me in the Bible where it says that the teaching of an invisible church is wrong. Now don’t show me verses about the visible part of the church. That doesn’t prove there isn’t an invisible aspect of the church.

 

[rev_kevin]

The Church
The earliest ekklesia consisted of a free fellowship of Jewish believers who had in no way broken with Judaism, who continued in Jewish religious practices and worship. They believed that Jesus was the Messiah and had inaugurated the messianic era and they gathered together in homes and in the upper room for common meals and the celebration of the Lords Supper, for praise and worhip, and listening to the apostles’ teaching. The ekklesia was not what it is today; a orginized institution. It was a small open fellowship of Jews within Judaism.When Peter confessed faith in Jesus’ messiahship and was designated the rock on which the church was to be founded, it was not as a private individual but as a spokesman and representative of the 12 in his apostolic capacity.
Ekklesia can designate a meeting of Christians for worship, en ekklesia can be rendered simply “in church.” It can designate the believers who gather in a particular home as a house-church, it can designate the totally of believers liveing in once place. The local church is not part of the church but us the church in its local expression. This means that the whole power of Christ is available to every local congregation.

 

[tweetymom]

The Church
The earliest ekklesia consisted of a free fellowship of Jewish believers who had in no way broken with Judaism, who continued in Jewish religious practices and worship. They believed that Jesus was the Messiah and had inaugurated the messianic era and they gathered together in homes and in the upper room for common meals and the celebration of the Lords Supper, for praise and worhip, and listening to the apostles’ teaching. The ekklesia was not what it is today; a orginized institution. It was a small open fellowship of Jews within Judaism.When Peter confessed faith in Jesus’ messiahship and was designated the rock on which the church was to be founded, it was not as a private individual but as a spokesman and representative of the 12 in his apostolic capacity.
Ekklesia can designate a meeting of Christians for worship, en ekklesia can be rendered simply “in church.” It can designate the believers who gather in a particular home as a house-church, it can designate the totally of believers liveing in once place. The local church is not part of the church but us the church in its local expression. This means that the whole power of Christ is available to every local congregation.

Amen rev

 

[elvisman]

Are you saying the people here, the truly GOD fearing or the political organization that is the Catholic Church that tried to rule states, committed otracities, killed and excommunicated Christians, etc. ?

Yes, can we figure out **when the political machine took over **and pushed the core of what was Jesus’ Church under cover?

Of course Jesus’ Church prevailed a core group of truly Christian people hidden away that were finally able to come forward with the reformation. Inside the **organization that is the Catholic Church **lived Jesus’ simple “I will build my church” core group. People were fighting the power seekers the whole time and then with reformation that core group from Jesus Church was able to break free form the corrupt organization.

The position of Pope was added at a later date. It was not a position mentioned in the first Church, the Bishops were local.

Jesus is speaking to the 72 He sent out here. There was no one main man except of course for Jesus!

YES, absolutely, today we see the **organization that is the Catholic Church **that has been slowly evolving back into the fold of Jesus’ Church. Please note I am not talking about all the wonderful Christian people, Priest, Nuns, Elders, Popes etc. here, they were always apart of the Church. I am just speaking of the corrupted organization known as the Catholic Church.

People are corrupt - not the Church. It never has been.
Jesus identified himself with the Church in Acts 9:4-5. To say that the Church itself was corrupt is to blaspheme against Jesus, which you just have.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Protestants - ALL Protestants are divorced from the Church - the Body of Christ.

**As for there being no one main man - get real and study the Scriptures.

Luke 22:31-32
**"Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your *(singular) *own faith may not fail; and once you *(singular) *have turned back, you (singular) must strengthen your brothers."

Why didn’t Jesus pray for them all? Why just Peter? Let’s move on.

John 21:15-17
**When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, "Feed my lambs." **
**He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, "Tend my sheep." **
He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."

Jesus told Peter to feed his lambs, to tend his sheep. He said this to NOBODY else.

Finally - show me historical evidence of this so-called faithful "remnant" you speak of.

Game - Set - MATCH.

 

[elvisman]

Of course.

You mean, “Of course not.” Not every member of the Church will be saved.

So Jesus is going to cut off part of Himself?

That’s what HE said very clearly in John 15:5-6:
I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. **
Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. **

Just because you can’t see that I have, doesn’t mean I haven’t. Just becasue you don’t understand, doesn’t mean the church isn’t invisible. BTW, of course part of it is visible.

The only part of the church that is invisible is that part which has left this world.
The Church Militant (here on earth) cannot be invisible. You know why?
Because JESUS said so (Matt. 5:14-16)

Show me in the Bible where it says that the teaching of an invisible church is wrong. Now don’t show me verses about the visible part of the church. That doesn’t prove there isn’t an invisible aspect of the church.

Matt. 5:14-16** CLEARLY says:**
**You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. **
**Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house. **
Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.

---

Jesus uses the words “cannot” and “must shine” to make his point that the church CANNOT be invisible.
There’s your Scriptural proof.

 

[elvisman]

Amen rev

But of course.
I wouldn’t expect an anti-Catholic cheerleader to say anything else . . .

 

[wisdomseeker]

But of course.
I wouldn’t expect an anti-Catholic cheerleader to say anything else . . .

GK Chesterton has this to say:
“The man was proud of being orthodox, was proud of being right. If he stood alone in a howling wilderness he was more than a man; he was a church. He was the centre of the universe; it was round him that the stars swung. All the tortures torn out of forgotten hells could not make him admit that he was heretical. But a few modern phrases have made him boast of it. He says, with a conscious laugh, “I suppose I am very heretical,” and looks round for applause. The word “heresy” not only means no longer being wrong; it practically means being clear-headed and courageous. The word “orthodoxy” not only no longer means being right; it practically means being wrong.”