where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

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elvisman said:
You want me to expose you? Okay - here goes:

Well – the fact that you copied and pasted from the book, “A Theology of the New Testament” by George Eldon Ladd is very telling in that, you only researched one source.
**Ladd was a Baptist minister with a very slanted **non-Catholic (which usually means non-historical) view.

Your deeply flawed opinion comes in when you make the following statement:
“When Peter confessed faith in Jesus’ messiahship and was designated the rock on which the church was to be founded, it was not as a private individual but as a spokesman and representative of the 12 in his apostolic capacity.”
This is, to put it mildly – hogwash, just as Ladd’s view that there was “no one leader”.
The Early church Fathers squash Ladd’s opinions AND yours:
Letter of Clement to James
Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 A.D, 221]).
Cyprian
With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter** and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 A.D. 252]).
The Lord says to Peter: “I say to you,” he says, “that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church” . . . On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was , but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord.* If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith?* If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 A.D. 251]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9 ;3 2-3 4] (Catechetical Lectures 17;27 A.D. 350]).

You did it you exposed me, the Baptist with a Baptist point of view, how dare I. You are correct I used only one copy, like no one eles has here and I did not paste and copy, So how many do you want me to use I have more I just chose that one, big deal. See sunshine when you quote Scripture from the Bible you are doing the same thing, Paste and copy, thats like the pot calling the kettle black. Lets see here sunshine in your post you have quoted from other sources but I quess it all right for you but not others. Opps did I expose you sunshine? I know you will say no but I reall don’t care. Can you imagine a Baptist minister with a non-Catholic view, that seems pretty strange don’t it sunshine. What do you think that a Baptist minister will have a Catholic view. Does a priest have a Baptist view? I think not. See sunshine, it seems that if somebody disagrees with you then they are anti-Cathollic. Well sunshine I have some news for you, not everyone agrees with you, its true they don’t. Now I know that it may be a shocker to you but I think you will get over it some day, well mabe you won’t. Are you anti-Protestant? If so why? We are all children of God. Hay you didn’t point out the right thing I said, Why?
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MuddyRocker said:
I am a non-catholic. I believe the answer to your question is “all of the above”. The church Jesus founded is all of the above. We have taken what Jesus gave us and over time, as we have always done, morphed it into what we now have. Even if I did believe that the Catholic church was the same but one and only church that Jesus gave us, I would still say that we have distorted it so much that it is no longer anything resembling what he left! But this can be said of all our churches. We all came from the same place, God - but we have wandered so far away that we are something totally different than what we were supposed to be. I think whether you are Protestant or Catholic or otherwise, your religion if it is what we call Christian, came from the church Jesus left behind. We have merely taken our faith in another direction because somewhere along the course of history you followed the person in front of you who followed the one in front of him and so on. Whether compelled by government, poverty, or other reasons - we all fell away. But it is the desire of God that we return to him. And that is what really matters. Whether or not your “HEART” truly belongs to him or to yourself or to a “church” or to someone else is what he looks at. We are sinners, but if our heart is “after” him as David’s was, we will be ok in the end.
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no disrespect but i disagree on a couple of things the C.C. has more than not stayed true to its original self, you cant lump it in with everything else. It is very unique and very different than your everyday evangelical church. I have visited many different churches over the years and found that they were all different in many ways. They were never in agreement on anything. Sunday morning if you could pick several Catholic Churches to visit that day you would find them all in agreement on virtually everything. The bible says the church should be as one in agreement. You are true when you say this guy followed that guy and so on and that is what got us in the fix we are in now around 30-40 thousand different religions. God help us!!!
 
Even if most CC meetings are very similar, if they have wrong teachings or are leading people in the wrong direction, they are still not the church Jesus left. And, historically, where did the Protestants come from? They came from the ranks of the CC. I know that most PC’s have different messages and teachings. To me that just means that more and more man is influencing the church itself. At some point, the church Jesus left BECAME the catholic church - but even before that - it was already off the right path.
 
MuddyRocker said:
Even if most CC meetings are very similar, if they have wrong teachings or are leading people in the wrong direction, they are still not the church Jesus left. And, historically, where did the Protestants come from? They came from the ranks of the CC. I know that most PC’s have different messages and teachings. To me that just means that more and more man is influencing the church itself. At some point, the church Jesus left BECAME the catholic church - but even before that - it was already off the right path.
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so i guess your 20 year or 2 week old church has a new divine revalation on scriptures, look to the early church fathers and you will see the Catholic Church is the church Jesus built and God gave it divine revalation and apostolic succesion. Jesus is alive and well in the Catholic church and has never left, he said the gates of hell would never prevail against it ,never!!Luther came from the Catholic Church not protestantism, protestantism came from Luther. And if you say we have the wrong teachings then you must not believe in the bible because all our teachings come from the bible. So what crazy doctrine teaches you that Jesus left the Catholic church because then you are saying Jesus lied and me and your faith is in vain, remember when Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against his church,THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THAT HE BUILT UPON PETER THE ROCK!!!

,
 
rev_kevin said:
You did it you exposed me, the Baptist with a Baptist point of view, how dare I. You are correct I used only one copy, like no one eles has here and I did not paste and copy, So how many do you want me to use I have more I just chose that one, big deal. See sunshine when you quote Scripture from the Bible you are doing the same thing, Paste and copy, thats like the pot calling the kettle black. Lets see here sunshine in your post you have quoted from other sources but I quess it all right for you but not others. Opps did I expose you sunshine? I know you will say no but I reall don’t care. Can you imagine a Baptist minister with a non-Catholic view, that seems pretty strange don’t it sunshine. What do you think that a Baptist minister will have a Catholic view. Does a priest have a Baptist view? I think not. See sunshine, it seems that if somebody disagrees with you then they are anti-Cathollic. Well sunshine I have some news for you, not everyone agrees with you, its true they don’t. Now I know that it may be a shocker to you but I think you will get over it some day, well mabe you won’t. Are you anti-Protestant? If so why? We are all children of God. Hay you didn’t point out the right thing I said, Why?
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**Hey - I don’t care that you presented a Baptist view. My only problem is that you presented it - and taunted me with it - as the truth. **

All I had to do was to present the testimony of the Early Church to demolish your (and George Eldon Ladd’s) inane arguments.

You are right about one thing - we (Christians) are all children of God. The only difference is that some of us (Protestants) have chosen to divorce ourselves from God’s family.

Okay . . . ummm . . . sunshine? :rolleyes:
 
elvisman said:
Hey - I don’t care that you presented a Baptist view. My only problem is that you presented it - and taunted me with it - as the truth.

**All I had to do was to present the testimony of the Early Church to demolish **your (and George Eldon Ladd’s) inane arguments.
Okay . . . ummm . . . sunshine? :rolleyes:
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So sunshine, which is it? You say you don’t care that I presented a Baptist view but your only problem is that I presented it, and TAUNTED you with it as the truth. Now sunshine, can I present my Baptist view like you present your Catholic view. Oh but we can’t because we will be taunting you Please cry me a river. But guess what sunshine, with or without your permission, which I don’t really need, I will continue to present my Baptist view as the truth and you can’t do nothing about it but gripe, whine, and say your famous words WORNG,and your anti-Catholic. Oh ya, ignorante/ignorance is used by you also.
Quess what sunshine, you did not demonish my view, you just showed everyone that you are able to contradict yourself by using quotes like I did, go figure you doing the same thing that you don’t like others to do, MY my sunshine I think you need to practice what you preach. and don’t accuse others of something, then turn around and to the same thing. Funny isn’t it sunshine, how you just exposed yourself as a do as I say, not as I do person, I can but you can’t kind of person.We divorced our selves from the family of God, WRONG, as you would say, I’m still in the family whether you believe if or not sunshine. Now can we get back to the subject?
 
You know, it is difficult to have a discussion with people who are “preaching” hate and exclusivity! What is wrong with you guys? I thought this was a site for God Lovers to discuss faith? Not a place to call each other names! Not a place to criticize each other! I don’t get it?
 
elvisman said:
That’s funny.
The other people who have resorted to the color in my posts all lost the debate, too. It’s the last resort of the truly desperate.
Secondly, the bible is not a dictionary and does not define what people are expected to know. The gates of hell were both *symbolic *of where Jesus was standing when he made the comment in Cesarea Philipi – as well as literal – as in hell and evil.
As for Revelation – do HOMEWORK before making such ignorant claims.
The Church of Philadelphia was put on a pedestal for the endurance in love and faith.
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Well im sure that people have decided that having a discussion with you was not worth the effort do to the difficulty in reading your posts as well as your uncharitable tone. If you then decide that because they stop offering answers that you have some how bested them with your brilliance then good on you! reminds me of the guys in wrestling who would not shower for a few days before a match. you dont seam to understand my previous points so I will wait and see if you want to put more effort into it. otherwise I will just let yuo think you have won yet another debate:thumbsup:
 
MuddyRocker said:
You know, it is difficult to have a discussion with people who are “preaching” hate and exclusivity! What is wrong with you guys? I thought this was a site for God Lovers to discuss faith? Not a place to call each other names! Not a place to criticize each other! I don’t get it?
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no criticism needed. just the Truth need to be discussed.

the Truth is exclusive. there is no such thing is my truth and your truth.

if you love God, you must seek the Truth. the Truth is Christ and everything about Christ and everything He said.

certainly one cannot pick up a Bible 2000 yrs later and know the plan of God just by reading it. you need an instructer who knows all about God and the Jews. one who will instruct you in Truth. certainly the Truth is the most important. just because we have so many christians groups spread everywhere, it does not mean that God is agreement with everybody. God lets everybody live just moslems, atheists, hindus, budhism and etc. but because so many claim to know the Truth of Christ and teachings are contradictory is a major reason one must seek the True teachings that Jesus promised when He said: “my Father will sent the Spirit to remind you of all that I have tought you.”
 
Fair enough. Truth is truth! It does not matter what “religion” you belong to. I do seek the truth. But I do not believe that if you follow the Catholic Church, or the Protestant churches for that matter, to the letter of their teachings, that you will be led to the truth! That comes from only ONE place.
 
MuddyRocker said:
Fair enough. Truth is truth! It does not matter what “religion” you belong to. I do seek the truth. But I do not believe that if you follow the Catholic Church, or the Protestant churches for that matter, to the letter of their teachings, that you will be led to the truth! That comes from only ONE place.
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It does matter what religion you belong.

would say that muslins have the Truth? how about budhism? hinduism?

if you know that our Lord found one Church, than this one Church is the one with the Truth.

Truth is not relative. Truth is One and not many. if so many preaching Christianity differs in teachings, then where is the True teachings? if you believe what our Lord said, than you must assume that Truth is tought today by His Church despite of what i believe.
 
MyRdmrLvs said:
yes but there was no more visible connection between those Catholics than there is between me and you.
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MyRdmrlvs, I thought we are all Brothers and Sisters in Christ because by One Baptism we were all Baptised in Jesus CHrist and that made us all part of the same Brotherhood the brotherhood of Christ. :bighanky:
 
rev_kevin said:
You did it you exposed me, the Baptist with a Baptist point of view, how dare I. You are correct I used only one copy, like no one eles has here and I did not paste and copy, So how many do you want me to use I have more I just chose that one, big deal. See sunshine when you quote Scripture from the Bible you are doing the same thing, Paste and copy, thats like the pot calling the kettle black. Lets see here sunshine in your post you have quoted from other sources but I quess it all right for you but not others. Opps did I expose you sunshine? I know you will say no but I reall don’t care. Can you imagine a Baptist minister with a non-Catholic view, that seems pretty strange don’t it sunshine. What do you think that a Baptist minister will have a Catholic view. Does a priest have a Baptist view? I think not. See sunshine, it seems that if somebody disagrees with you then they are anti-Cathollic. Well sunshine I have some news for you, not everyone agrees with you, its true they don’t. Now I know that it may be a shocker to you but I think you will get over it some day, well mabe you won’t. Are you anti-Protestant? If so why? We are all children of God. Hay you didn’t point out the right thing I said, Why?
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Great Rev. God Bless
 
Alveus_Lacuna said:
Why do you assume that none of the Apostolic churches are that Church? Why are they founded by men, as you say?
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If you are countig Jesus Christ as a man,then you are right all are stated by a man
But the true Church was started by Jesus Christ on Peter MT16;1819
 
In Matthew 16 when Jesus asked who do you say I am Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Why did he say that, because it was revealed to him by God who Jesus was and not by man. Then Jesus said that your are Peter or rock and upon this rock I will build my church. The church is Christ,:his body, his teachings and Peter understood this and because of his understanding Christ wanted him to spread his teachings. Then Peter was given the keys to the Kingdom or Heaven. Now these keys represent the authority to carry out church discipline, legislation and administration. To bring people to Christ by presenting them with the message of salvation found in God’s Word.
Then in Ephesians Paul describes the nature of the church. The church, under Christ’s control, is a living body, a family, a dwelling. Paul explains the wonderful things that we have received through Christ and refers to the church as a body, a temple, a bride, and a soldier. It says that God has put all things under the authority of Christ, and he gave him his authority for the benefit of the church, And the church is his body.
 
rev_kevin said:
So sunshine, which is it? You say you don’t care that I presented a Baptist view but your only problem is that I presented it, and TAUNTED you with it as the truth. Now sunshine, can I present my Baptist view like you present your Catholic view. Oh but we can’t because we will be taunting you Please cry me a river. But guess what sunshine, with or without your permission, which I don’t really need, I will continue to present my Baptist view as the truth and you can’t do nothing about it but gripe, whine, and say your famous words WORNG,and your anti-Catholic. Oh ya, ignorante/ignorance is used by you also.
Quess what sunshine, you did not demonish my view, you just showed everyone that you are able to contradict yourself by using quotes like I did, go figure you doing the same thing that you don’t like others to do, MY my sunshine I think you need to practice what you preach. and don’t accuse others of something, then turn around and to the same thing. Funny isn’t it sunshine, how you just exposed yourself as a do as I say, not as I do person, I can but you can’t kind of person.We divorced our selves from the family of God, WRONG, as you would say, I’m still in the family whether you believe if or not sunshine. Now can we get back to the subject?
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Like I said - it doesn’t matter to me that presented your Baptist view - apparently, that’s all you know.
BUT - if you want to know the historical truth, read up on the Early Church Fathers. They’ve been proving you wrong on this entire thread . . .

Umm . . no - you’re a separated brother who remains divorced from the Body.

PS - I’ll bet you think that calling me “Sunshine” is annoying me. On the contrary!
Since you’re so angry, I guess I’ll have to call you a name befitting your demeanor. How about "Dark Cloud"? :rolleyes:
 
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