where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[MyRdmrLvs]

**Those early councils - as many of them do - were convened to combat **heresies, such as the Arian Heresy in the 4th century. Virtually every heresy begins with the misconception of the nature of the nature of God.

Just as with the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. It says that there was much debate before Peter, who was the leader, stood up and declared their beliefs - that were are saved solely by the grace of God and that gentile Christians should not be held to Jewish Law customs. Afterward, James, the Bishop of Jerusalem stood up and agreed.

The Pope is not a tyrant nor is he a king. He is here to serve the Church. One of his official titles is the “Servant of the Servants of God”.

let me give you an example that makes my point: lets say you find yourself with 100 other people locked in a room with a very large bomb! the timer on the bomb is ticking and some people are saying we should cut the blue wire! others are saying cut the red! others say dump water over it! everyone is fairly certain there idea could work but know one knows for sure, except one guy. you see this guy is a bomb disposal expert, he has been diffusing bombs for years and could do it in his sleep. you could say he is INFALLIBLE. Now a decision has to be made on what to do. How is that decision made??? they all vote! thats right everyone has an equal say in determining their fate. Does this seem logical to you? Im thinking if everyone believes that guy is infallible, we arent voting on anything! He is going to tell us exactly what to do and thats the end of it.
the vote about the deity of Christ really demonstrates what these bishops believed. there is no way the would have voted if they believed the bishop of Rome was infallible. Does that mean hes not a wonderful God loving Jesus serving pontiff? NO it just means the infallible doctrine was cooked up later.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Again you continue to contradict scripture left and right. Luther was never forced to do anything. According to SS and ST we are given FREE WILL from God. No one can force anyone to do anything. Luther choose on his free will to leave the CC because he would not submit to the Authority given to it by God. NO one can take away your free will. Jesus promised us that.

tell that to the calvinists.

 

[tweetymom]

let me give you an example that makes my point: lets say you find yourself with 100 other people locked in a room with a very large bomb! the timer on the bomb is ticking and some people are saying we should cut the blue wire! others are saying cut the red! others say dump water over it! everyone is fairly certain there idea could work but know one knows for sure, except one guy. you see this guy is a bomb disposal expert, he has been diffusing bombs for years and could do it in his sleep. you could say he is INFALLIBLE. Now a decision has to be made on what to do. How is that decision made??? they all vote! thats right everyone has an equal say in determining their fate. Does this seem logical to you? Im thinking if everyone believes that guy is infallible, we arent voting on anything! He is going to tell us exactly what to do and thats the end of it.
the vote about the deity of Christ really demonstrates what these bishops believed. there is no way the would have voted if they believed the bishop of Rome was infallible. Does that mean hes not a wonderful God loving Jesus serving pontiff? NO it just means the infallible doctrine was cooked up later.

 

[elvisman]

Not angry at all. I reread it and you are saying that the are the same church correct?
But can you explain why the name change?
And why don’t you correct the one who gave me the wrong information?

Kevin - the Scriptures tell us that the Church was referred to as “The Way”. This is a fact that cannot be denied. The belief system that is Christianity was known by this name. It wasn’t called “The Church of the Way”.

**When Ignatius wrote his Letter to the Syrnaeans on the way to his death at the beginning of the 2nd century - he referred to the Catholic Church. This was already an established name at the end of the 1st century. Christianity was no longer known as “The Way”. Since then, the writings of the Early Church unanimously used the name Catholic Church. There was no “Way”, “Baptist”, “Evangelical”, “Pentecostal” or “Non-Denominational” Church.
The Catholic Church stood alone.

Lastly - if you got some bad information from a Catholic and other Catholics are telling you that it is wrong - then the onus is on you to go to the source of their teachings to find the right answer before spouting off erroneous information.
I won’t debate anybody about anything unless I have done my homework.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

And how does one make that determination, and by who’s authority?

In your opinion, are there others that were labeled heretics that were indeed heretics, and how do you determine that?

Lets say one guy is tied to a stake with wood piled all around and another is about to burn him alive. Both men claim to be Christians and serve Christ. who is the heretic? Now before anyone gets their feelers hurt. notice I didnt claim either was a Catholic. My point is my money would not be on the guy with the torch being the one who is Christlike.

 

[MuddyRocker]

Lets say one guy is tied to a stake with wood piled all around and another is about to burn him alive. Both men claim to be Christians and serve Christ. who is the heretic? Now before anyone gets their feelers hurt. notice I didnt claim either was a Catholic. My point is my money would not be on the guy with the torch being the one who is Christlike.

Of course you realize that MANY Catholics were burned at the stake and killed in other ways by not only Catholics, but Protestants as well?

 

[elvisman]

let me give you an example that makes my point: lets say you find yourself with 100 other people locked in a room with a very large bomb! the timer on the bomb is ticking and some people are saying we should cut the blue wire! others are saying cut the red! others say dump water over it! everyone is fairly certain there idea could work but know one knows for sure, except one guy. you see this guy is a bomb disposal expert, he has been diffusing bombs for years and could do it in his sleep. you could say he is INFALLIBLE. Now a decision has to be made on what to do. How is that decision made??? they all vote! thats right everyone has an equal say in determining their fate. Does this seem logical to you? Im thinking if everyone believes that guy is infallible, we arent voting on anything! He is going to tell us exactly what to do and thats the end of it.
the vote about the deity of Christ really demonstrates what these bishops believed. there is no way the would have voted if they believed the bishop of Rome was infallible. Does that mean hes not a wonderful God loving Jesus serving pontiff? NO it just means the infallible doctrine was cooked up later.

You’re looking at this all wrong.

I explained that at the 1st Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 - after MUCH debate - Peter got up and they all fell silent. Then, he proceeded to declare what the doctrine was. Did he do this on his own? NO. This is why I told you that the Pope is not a king or singular authoritarian ruler. He gets advice from the bishops just as a president does from his Cabinet. Just as Peter did from the rest of the Council.**

When a Pope declares something as being infallible - it’s not becaue he said so. It’s because of WHO he represents.
Just as the old saying goes:
**"It’s not true because I believe it. I believe it because it’s true. **

---

The same is true for infallible statements.

 

[rev_kevin]

**Kevin **- the Scriptures tell us that the Church was referred to as “The Way”. This is a fact that cannot be denied. The belief system that is Christianity was known by this name. It wasn’t called “The Church of the Way”.

When Ignatius wrote his Letter to the Syrnaeans on the way to his death at the beginning of the 2nd century - he referred to the Catholic Church. This was already an established name at the end of the 1st century. Christianity was no longer known as “The Way”. Since then, the writings of the Early Church unanimously used the name Catholic Church. There was no *“Way”, “Baptist”, “Evangelical”, “Pentecostal” *or “Non-Denominational” Church.
The Catholic Church stood alone.

**Lastly - if you got some bad **information from a Catholic and other Catholics are telling you that it is wrong - then the onus is on you to go to the source of their teachings to find the right answer before spouting off erroneous information.
I won’t debate anybody about anything unless I have done my homework.

So you won’t correct one of your own but you are quick to correct us even when the comment was not directed at or for you. This seems pretty one way. I’ll tell you in bold red letters that you are wrong but I will not correct one of my own. Protect your own I see how you are.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Rev
If you dont want to accept the Truth that is fine. whoever laid hands on you have no authority to do so. who laid the hands on the one who laid hands on you? if you go backwards, you will find out that whoever it is had no authority to do so. it is self made ordination. Jesus commanded the Apostles who commanded others and it is an unbroken succession line. you are going against God’s plan.

but that is ok. because mormons do the same and so do all other non Catholics. that is not what God planned. that is a man made thing.

take St Paul for example, when Jesus appeared to him, he didnt go out and made his own church, he obeyed Christ and sought the Church. he went to see the Apostles.

** To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it St Ignatious fo Loyola. **

I have read Catholics on this forum say that there are some popes who are likely in hell. So what about the authority passed on by these popes?

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

The church yes not the CC.

What other church then?

Matthew

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

I know I’m repeating myself, but…

It seems to me, unless one disavows/ignores/denies etc. apostolic succession and the writings of the early church fathers, the church known today as “The Catholic Church” is “the historical church founded by Jesus Christ”.

and I repeat myself when I say she is certainly apart of it.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

I have the utmost respect for today’s Catholic Church and also for Pope Benedict. However, there is absolutely no possibility of your statement above being true. Besides many other reasons why, I will give you two. 1) Constantine took what was then the Christian church and turned it into something else. When this happened, the old church vanished. 2.) There have been more than one occasion of two Popes in history and the “conquering” Pope was not in the so called succession of Peter; thus breaking the chain. There is no doubt that the CC is the oldest church that we know of, She was bigger and badder than the rest when churches were “battling it out” so to speak.
With that being said, I do believe that the historical church Jesus founded is still alive. It just has no “Corporate” name like Catholic or Protestant or Orthodox or whatever. It is alive in the hearts of men all over the world and its head is still Christ. Jesus, in our sacred scriptures, never uttered the words Catholic or Protestant or Christian for that matter. All who follow Jesus are brothers IN him. THIS is the historical church.
I don’t think, however, this in any way puts down the Catholics or anyone else! Many Catholics and also Protestants belong to the historical church, despite belonging to their earthly church organizations; (Just as Nicodemus belonged to the Pharisees but still surrendered his heart to Jesus). So - let’s all be friends and glory in the splendor of him who made the way for us ALL to be saved; from OURSELVES!
One other note on the early church Fathers. I also have respect for them. However, most of them have been excommunicated from the church or at least criticized greatly by other church Fathers after him. The church Fathers are only called “Church Fathers” because of the time period within which they lived. There have been many men after them just as faithful, just as intelligent, and just as martyred all down through time who have not been called church Fathers. And we read their writings as well.

AND HE HITS ONE OUT OF THE PARK!

 

[tweetymom]

What other church then?

Matthew

The big church of believers.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

I have the utmost respect for today’s Catholic Church and also for Pope Benedict. However, there is absolutely no possibility of your statement above being true. Besides many other reasons why, I will give you two. 1) Constantine took what was then the Christian church and turned it into something else. When this happened, the old church vanished. 2.) There have been more than one occasion of two Popes in history and the “conquering” Pope was not in the so called succession of Peter; thus breaking the chain. There is no doubt that the CC is the oldest church that we know of, She was bigger and badder than the rest when churches were “battling it out” so to speak.
With that being said, I do believe that the historical church Jesus founded is still alive. It just has no “Corporate” name like Catholic or Protestant or Orthodox or whatever. It is alive in the hearts of men all over the world and its head is still Christ. Jesus, in our sacred scriptures, never uttered the words Catholic or Protestant or Christian for that matter. All who follow Jesus are brothers IN him. THIS is the historical church.
I don’t think, however, this in any way puts down the Catholics or anyone else! Many Catholics and also Protestants belong to the historical church, despite belonging to their earthly church organizations; (Just as Nicodemus belonged to the Pharisees but still surrendered his heart to Jesus). So - let’s all be friends and glory in the splendor of him who made the way for us ALL to be saved; from OURSELVES!
One other note on the early church Fathers. I also have respect for them. However, most of them have been excommunicated from the church or at least criticized greatly by other church Fathers after him. The church Fathers are only called “Church Fathers” because of the time period within which they lived. There have been many men after them just as faithful, just as intelligent, and just as martyred all down through time who have not been called church Fathers. And we read their writings as well.

the one part I would take isue with was that the church vanished, I believe the church continued in its mission despite the errors of sinful men.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

That’s awesome. God certainly moves in mysterious ways in all of us.

AMEN!

 

[wisdomseeker]

I belong to and support Christs church I do not attack it, there are variations in teachings and I will participate in discusing those differences in what I intend to be a charitable manor. If I dont come across as charitable please let me know.

you said something now i want you back up. please answer my question.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

The use of the word Catholic which in Latin means Universal was first used closer to the yr AD 110

II. The Church is called “Catholic”
“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

“[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.” Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).

“…to be in honour however with the Catholic Church for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline…one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul’s name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church…But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).

“[N]or does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this [fancied being], a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180

Great post!!!

Matthew

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

If Jesus wasn’t carried around on a gold-leafed litter - you have to remember that Jesus was rejected by the world and murdered. The early Christians were tortured and murdered. There was little to no respect for Christianity or Jesus - but that doesn’t mean that it should have remained that way.

Over the centuries, Christianity permeated every sector of society and the world because of the Great Commission - and thank GOD for that. Jesus is recpected and worshipped by billions now isn’t he?

If the Pope today is treated with grandiose respect with all of the trappings - it is because of the faith of the people he shepherds - because of WHO he represents - not because of him. He is the vicar of Christ - not Christ himself. If Christ descended from the heavens - we wouldn’t treat him like the Pope - we would fall prostrate to the ground in front of him and worship him.

Granted - there are faithful Catholics who go overboard but this is not the norm and it is not condoned, let alone encouraged.

In the presents of His disciples he was not loathed He was not rejected, Peter recognized who He was. and He got down on His knees before them and washed their feet! this was such a lowly task that a Jewish slave could not be made to do it. I cant see a vicar of this Jesus allowing himself to be carried on the backs of men. hopefuly this is no longer done now that he has the popemoble.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

Sorry for the insult.We know that God called you, and yes you do have power.

By what authority do you have the power rev?

Matthew

 

[rev_kevin]

By what authority do you have the power rev?

Matthew

God