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MyRdmrLvs
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yes this evil was committed by lots of different groups that claim to serve God but clearly did not.
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tweetymom
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I am not the Rev. But he has it by the power of God!By what authority do you have the power rev?
Matthew
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MyRdmrLvs
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it has to be the slipperiest doctrine:shrug: that soooooo much is pinned to.
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MyRdmrLvs
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you want a list of my works and the works of my church??
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MuddyRocker
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Even I as a Protestant know that a Pope’s infallibility has nothing to do with whether or not he makes any mistakes, is capable of sin, or is just plain wrong sometimes. It only means that, when it comes to teaching about faith, he is protected and guided by the Holy Spirit, who incidentally is never wrong. The Pope is still a man. He is prone to sin just as I am. However, the authority passed on from generation to generation has nothing to do with the fallen nature of the man. Peter himself sinned. Although, I personally do not believe that Peter was the first Pope, or ever even a Bishop. Even Judas’ authority was passed on to the one chosen to replace him.
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Cursilista
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Originally Posted by MyRdmrLvs
let me give you an example that makes my point: lets say you find yourself with 100 other people locked in a room with a very large bomb! the timer on the bomb is ticking and some people are saying we should cut the blue wire! others are saying cut the red! others say dump water over it! everyone is fairly certain there idea could work but know one knows for sure, except one guy. you see this guy is a bomb disposal expert, he has been diffusing bombs for years and could do it in his sleep. you could say he is INFALLIBLE. Now a decision has to be made on what to do. How is that decision made??? they all vote! thats right everyone has an equal say in determining their fate. Does this seem logical to you? Im thinking if everyone believes that guy is infallible, we arent voting on anything! He is going to tell us exactly what to do and thats the end of it.
the vote about the deity of Christ really demonstrates what these bishops believed. there is no way the would have voted if they believed the bishop of Rome was infallible. Does that mean hes not a wonderful God loving Jesus serving pontiff? NO it just means the infallible doctrine was cooked up later.
Lets try a different example:
Jesus was infallible through the power of the holy spirit. Though he wavered at times, Father take this cup from me, he was strengthen by the holy spirit. He left mere men the apostles to create the church organization here on earth. Jesus knew, just as God knew, that there would be disagreements. As with any organization, there should be someone in charge of debate among men, someone with authority. It is plain to see from scripture that Jesus put Peter in that posistion. From the dialogue where Jesus said you are Peter and upon this rock i will build my church, to where whenever the apostles were mentioned it was always stated as Peter and the Apostles. He was the first among equals.
In debate over how should scripture be interpreted, or what should church doctrine should be, Im sure much imput would be heard amongst the apostles and disciples. Example would be Paul’s appeal to Peter to include the Gentiles without circumcision. Paul appealed to Peters authority and the collective conscionious of the apostles and elders of the church. Now during that debate the Jesus is watching over the discussion and sends the holy spirit into the discussion to iinfluence the free will of the men in attendence. It may have been what Paul said or what someone else said. In the end, the decision was made by Peter to include the gentiles without circumcision. Jesus will get the right results from important decisions that need to be made by his church. Whether the holy spirit influences the mind of the Bishop direct, or the bishops mind is influenced through the words of someone else, the holy spirit presides over the outcome of church decisions regarding scripture and morals.
Since Jesus said that what you deem on earth i will deem in heaven, He knew that the church he left here on earth would contain some human aspects, but he made sure that the core elements of his church would remain true to his teachings, through the intervention of holy spirit.
The misconception of most protestants is that we believe that the pope to be some kind of super power that is incapable of making a mistake. The pope has the college of cardinals and the bishops , plus im sure hundreds of scholars who provide discussion and debate over posistions of the church on certain subjects as they come up. With that said, we believe to this day, that the holy spirit, through its intercession of those discussions, reveals the truth through someone, so that the Pope, who has to make a final decision perhaps, makes the decision that jesus would want him to make.
let me give you an example that makes my point: lets say you find yourself with 100 other people locked in a room with a very large bomb! the timer on the bomb is ticking and some people are saying we should cut the blue wire! others are saying cut the red! others say dump water over it! everyone is fairly certain there idea could work but know one knows for sure, except one guy. you see this guy is a bomb disposal expert, he has been diffusing bombs for years and could do it in his sleep. you could say he is INFALLIBLE. Now a decision has to be made on what to do. How is that decision made??? they all vote! thats right everyone has an equal say in determining their fate. Does this seem logical to you? Im thinking if everyone believes that guy is infallible, we arent voting on anything! He is going to tell us exactly what to do and thats the end of it.
the vote about the deity of Christ really demonstrates what these bishops believed. there is no way the would have voted if they believed the bishop of Rome was infallible. Does that mean hes not a wonderful God loving Jesus serving pontiff? NO it just means the infallible doctrine was cooked up later.
Lets try a different example:
Jesus was infallible through the power of the holy spirit. Though he wavered at times, Father take this cup from me, he was strengthen by the holy spirit. He left mere men the apostles to create the church organization here on earth. Jesus knew, just as God knew, that there would be disagreements. As with any organization, there should be someone in charge of debate among men, someone with authority. It is plain to see from scripture that Jesus put Peter in that posistion. From the dialogue where Jesus said you are Peter and upon this rock i will build my church, to where whenever the apostles were mentioned it was always stated as Peter and the Apostles. He was the first among equals.
In debate over how should scripture be interpreted, or what should church doctrine should be, Im sure much imput would be heard amongst the apostles and disciples. Example would be Paul’s appeal to Peter to include the Gentiles without circumcision. Paul appealed to Peters authority and the collective conscionious of the apostles and elders of the church. Now during that debate the Jesus is watching over the discussion and sends the holy spirit into the discussion to iinfluence the free will of the men in attendence. It may have been what Paul said or what someone else said. In the end, the decision was made by Peter to include the gentiles without circumcision. Jesus will get the right results from important decisions that need to be made by his church. Whether the holy spirit influences the mind of the Bishop direct, or the bishops mind is influenced through the words of someone else, the holy spirit presides over the outcome of church decisions regarding scripture and morals.
Since Jesus said that what you deem on earth i will deem in heaven, He knew that the church he left here on earth would contain some human aspects, but he made sure that the core elements of his church would remain true to his teachings, through the intervention of holy spirit.
The misconception of most protestants is that we believe that the pope to be some kind of super power that is incapable of making a mistake. The pope has the college of cardinals and the bishops , plus im sure hundreds of scholars who provide discussion and debate over posistions of the church on certain subjects as they come up. With that said, we believe to this day, that the holy spirit, through its intercession of those discussions, reveals the truth through someone, so that the Pope, who has to make a final decision perhaps, makes the decision that jesus would want him to make.
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MuddyRocker
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I should have said they were invisible - they have indeed never vanished or disappeared. Bad choice of words. My Bad!
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MuddyRocker
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I think most Protestants would agree that the TERM “catholic”, meaning universal, the church of everyone, is a term that is ok. But… when most people use this word, that is not what they are referring to. They are referring to the Roman Catholic Church as an entity in itself, exclusive of all other members of the catholic/universal church that happen to belong to different religions, usually Protestant. And they insist that anyone who is not a “member” of this entity is “outside the church”. These are all controversial issues to say the least. That is why the term catholic is offensive to many people - even those who say they don’t have a problem with Catholicism!Great post!!!
Matthew
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AmericanJosiah
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Good point…
I think that some Catholics simply are confusing an adjective with the proper name of an institutional entity - and that’s understandable, I suppose. The term “catholic” was - exclusively and for many centuries - an adjective. It still is. It means “whole” “universal” “general” “all-embracing.” It is actually a violation of English grammar to capitolize an adjective (although less-than-honest Catholics sometimes do so when quoting their own denomination’s “Fathers”). The same can be said of another common (still) adjective, “orthodox.” It meant (and means) “true” “traditional” “historic understanding.” For years, these two adjectives were applied to the communion of saints - the church, the people of God, the union of believers, to the corpus of believers.
Eventually - partly as a result of Roman politics - Christianity became in a sense institutionalized, a denomination was created (for the Roman Empire anyway). It doesn’t seem to have had any legal moniker, but it was described by the adjectives “catholic” and “orthodox” in a way that eventually evolved into quasi-nouns and virtually monikers. As a result of the horrible East/West struggles, eventually - one got associated with the East and the other with the West. Therein lies the confusion: “Catholic” doesn’t mean the same thing as “catholic.” Catholics love to ignore this and just always capitolize it - thus giving the (false) impression that a specific institutional denominational entity is being spoken of. Often this is done innocently (especially by the laity) but often, sadly, it’s done quite on purpose (I cannot see how it could be otherwise).
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Bill_Pick
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Bill_Pick
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Remember the truth hurts if the wrong person is asking the question.LOL I love your post, some people just can not take the truth
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Matthew_P_Muehl
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Oh o.k. you mean the catholic church then. The church that christ founded himself.
Matthew
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wisdomseeker
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maybe this explain better than i could ever do.
zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m3/4mrkc.html
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Matthew_P_Muehl
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So god made you your own pope and gave you your own authority.
Thats very interesting.
Matthew
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Matthew_P_Muehl
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Cursilista
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Thank you mattew. For better understanding on any subject please look up this website,
scripturecatholic.com/index.html
it provides scripture with explanations as well as early church writings on every subject. easy reference for debate utilizing scripture
scripturecatholic.com/index.html
it provides scripture with explanations as well as early church writings on every subject. easy reference for debate utilizing scripture
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tweetymom
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Nope I mean the big church of believers Jesus started,Oh o.k. you mean the catholic church then. The church that christ founded himself.
Matthew
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MuddyRocker
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Do you think that St. Ignatius meant the universal church of believers or the Entity of the Roman Catholic Church in Rome when he wrote his famous line?
See this article in the Catholic Encyclopedia: newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm
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Matthew_P_Muehl
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Matthew_P_Muehl
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Hey thanks… I hope and pray for all to learn the whole true in the catholic church!
Matthew
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