where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[Cursilista]

rev kevin,

a few questions for you based on your assumptions

1 since the gospels and the NT were not written for many yrs after the death of jesus, and since the apostles were not capable of maintaing the truth, how do you know if the words of the bible which you cling to as the only truth are not without error. What infallible man wrote the words.

1. are the impressions of the catholic church which you spout off about here , the result of your study and research or the words of your own fallible church and preacher. remember according to you all churches and men are fallible
2. we have given you honest factual answers for all that you have asked. We have shown so many scriptures that back up apostolic succesion, teaching authority, the eucharist. we have shown these things to all the protestants on here and to no avail. Test your own church by these things that are in the bible and see if it stands up to the CC on each of the things you read on this site

 

[CMatt25]

Where did you get this? I never said that the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church was any more, or better than the Eastern Rites (indeed, the Eastern traditions of the Church have a deep and rich spirituality all their own). But when Pope Pius XII was speaking of the Mystical Body subsisting in the Catholic Church, he meant what he said. And sometimes in ecumenical circles, the term “Roman” Catholic Church is used because after the Protestant Reformation it was common for them to call the entire Church that, despite the fact that the Church has more than just a Roman Rite.

I actually know Episcopalians who consider themselves Catholic and who would prefer we call ourselves Roman Catholic to distinguish ourselves from them.

 

[Matariel]

So the orphans, widows, addicts, hungry and prisoners we minister to in Christs name dont please our Lord because we dont have our rituals just the way you like them?

I never said that, please don’t put words into my mouth. The conversation had nothing to do with either good works or rituals, I don’t know where you go that.

I did said that because the Protestant denominations do not have the Sacraments (ordained by Christ) except two (Baptism and Marriage) and because they have separated from the unity of the one sheepfold of Christ, the Catholic Church, they have voluntarily exiled themselves from certain graces, as these were established by the Lord himself to sanctify us.

Is this any wonder? Naturally I should think this, because if not I would not have converted to the Catholic Church and remained a Evangelical Protestant!

 

[Matariel]

I actually know Episcopalians who consider themselves Catholic and who would prefer we call ourselves Roman Catholic to distinguish ourselves from them.

Exactly; even though our Church’s real name is “the Church” or “the Catholic Church” or “the one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church”, and not the “Roman” Catholic Church (as that properly only refers to either the local Roman diocese or the Roman Rite as a whole) the good Pope used that term occasionally, since the Protestants and others sometimes called it that.

 

[guanophore]

If this were so there would be no need of conversion; but rather, all these groups being “Catholic” in a hidden way would be the exception, and not the norm, as extraordinary circumstances would apply.

You have misunderstood me, Matariel. I am talking about individuals who belong to the fold of Christ, not “groups”. Jesus does not save “groups” but individuals. His sheep can be found in every place, in every culture, and in every faith tradition.

It doesn’t sound like it; you seem to be divorcing the two aspects of the Catholic Church to the point where there are “two Churches” of Christ. There is only one, the Catholic Church.

The mystical body is much larger than the visible Catholic Church on earth. It is not necessary to be identified with the visible Catholic Church on earth to be part of the flock.

 

[Matariel]

You have misunderstood me, Matariel. I am talking about individuals who belong to the fold of Christ, not “groups”. Jesus does not save “groups” but individuals. His sheep can be found in every place, in every culture, and in every faith tradition.

LOL, then after all this we agree. But I still think precise wording is the best way to go on these matters, and that’s why I’ve been sticking to the wording presented in the Church’s magisterial documents.

The mystical body is much larger than the visible Catholic Church on earth. It is not necessary to be identified with the visible Catholic Church on earth to be part of the flock.

I disagree with the way this is worried (sorry). Again, it seems to suggest a Nestorian ecclesiology, and again I like to stick with the wording of the magisterial, authoritative documents of the Church. The two sentenced you typed should be worded, “The Mystical Body of Christ is the Catholic Church. One may not visibly be part of the Catholic Church to be in it, nonetheless, in an extraordinary way.”

 

[rinnie]

Thats my point, they would have believed what they were told because they could not read it for themselves, and because of this they were not able to understand or comprehend so they had no choice but to believe what they were told it says and because of this the “founding fathers” may have taken advantage of them being illiterate and they knew they would believe anything they were told about what was written.

Now this I am having a real problem here rev. Now correct me if I am wrong. But are you saying that the Apostles and the successors of the Apostles took advantage of people who could not read? And are you saying that they lied to them about the word of Christ.

And if thats the fact then how can you accept Canon of Scripture then. I mean if they are going to lie once why not lie again? Now can you trust any word that they said are the words of God then?

How can you say you believe the word of God that is written in the bible, but turn around and deny the word of God that is taught oral? You make no sense to me. Did the written word come from Jesus and oral come from Jesus, And why did Jesus tell them to TEACH and PREACH the word? Why did Jesus not just put the gospel in our minds and us not need the Church and the Bible then if God wanted us to have the Holy Spirit lead each one of us on our own. And no offense rev, but why are you needed if this is true. And why is the Church left for us? I mean is God not able to put the word in our head, and have the Holy Spirit lead us each on our own then?

And why have the Church rev? I mean if I believed as you do, I would not go to church. Because why do I need you if the Holy Spirit can lead me without the Church?

And lets talk the Eucharist rev, Can you turn water and bread into the Living Christ. The Catholic CHurch can and does every day. It was given to us by Christ. This is my body and blood that has been given up for you. I understan this teaching is hard, Jesus said it was and many walked away. But I did not. I stayed, I confess my sins, and I ask for forgivness for my sins before I partake in that wonderful gift provided for me.

And you say people believed what they were told because they could not read it for themself. Well its in there rev read it. I read it every sunday. Are you saying I cannot understand or comprehend? Are you saying that the CC the living Christ is taking advantage of me with the truth?

Saying we believe different things, or you do not agree with me will not cut it this time. You said that the Early Fathers of the Church did many horrible things and you must be called on for what you said.

It is no longer diagreements it has turned into blasphemy! ANd you call yourself a Man of God. I must ask again are you truly a Preacher? I am finding this impossible to believe. That a Preacher of any faith would condemn the Early Fathers of the Church.

 

[rinnie]

My Dear Brothers and Sister I have never tried to mislead any of you, and If I made a mistake on the teaching of the church I have always apologized. ANd will continue to do so. But this is the teaching of our faith.

In Jer 3:15 It is told to us its though the Holy Priesthood that God guided his people and provided for their worship and holiness in both the N.T and the O.T.

In the O.T there was the high priest Aaron (Exo 28:3)
The ministerial priests (Exo 28:40-41) universal priests aarons sons.
In the N.T High Priest Jesus Christ (Heb 2:17)
(Rom 15:16 1 Tim 3:18 5:17 Titus 1:7) The ordained Priests
l Peter 2:5,9 Rev: 1:6 The universal Priests (all the faithful)

The Church also teaches among these People Jesus called individuals to make this authority his Priesthood, his very person present in the Church in a more profound way. These persons make up the Priesthood those special people who he as called to make the Sacraments available for us and feed and tend the flock of the Lord. John 21:15-17

In scripture we are COMMANDED to OBEY these ELDERS (greek for Priests) of the church (1 Thes 5:12-13) (1 Tim 5:17 13:7, 17) (l Pet 5:5)

And those who reject their authority are looked down upon and judged harshly (2 Pet 2:10) (1 Jn 4:6, 3.) ( 3 Jn 1:9-11) ( Jude 1:8-11).

God says of his Priest, men should seek instruction from his mouth for he is the messenger fo the Lord of Hosts (Mal 2:7)

 

[CMatt25]

You have misunderstood me, Matariel. I am talking about individuals who belong to the fold of Christ, not “groups”. Jesus does not save “groups” but individuals. His sheep can be found in every place, in every culture, and in every faith tradition.

The mystical body is much larger than the visible Catholic Church on earth. It is not necessary to be identified with the visible Catholic Church on earth to be part of the flock.

It might have taken nearly 700 posts but I believe we might finally have the right answer! His sheep united in every faith tradition.

 

[schaick]

Sure all this is written in teh Bible. can you separate these from the Church of the Apostles? are you in that Church? not, if your Church is not 2000 yrs old.

I am not sure what you mean, why separate the verses from the Church of the Apostles?

Check it out:

** The Apostles gave us the the TRUTH through Scriptures with guidance from GOD and the Holy Spirit.

My Church teaches that all Scripture given to us by the Apostles is TRUTH form GOD.

My Church is from the Apostles!**

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I am not sure what you mean, why separate the verses from the Church of the Apostles?

Check it out:

** The Apostles gave us the the TRUTH through Scriptures with guidance from GOD and the Holy Spirit.

My Church teaches that all Scripture given to us by the Apostles is TRUTH form GOD.

[SIGN]My Church is from the Apostles!**]

I cannot deny or agree with this for I do not know the Church that you go. But I know my Church is directly from the Apostles, it can be traced back directly to Peter. So I am sure it you are in the Church that was started by the Apostles you would be able to prove Apostle succession also:thumbsup:

 

[CMatt25]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I cannot deny or agree with this for I do not know the Church that you go. But I know my Church is directly from the Apostles, it can be traced back directly to Peter. So I am sure it you are in the Church that was started by the Apostles you would be able to prove Apostle succession also:thumbsup:

Succession is in the eyes of the beholder. If one believes humans are fallible and capable of straying, then I’m certain Christ is capable to continue His church with other shepherds. By their fruits we shall know them.

 

[schaick]

how about bring Scriputres on teh Church also. since these teachings all belong to the Church Jesus found. are you afraid to give us Scriptures that describes the Church?

No not at all. I am taking this request to be about the organization of the early Church and not the type of services they held.

This is just a start I will keep working on it.

From Paul about qualifications of Deacons:
1 Timothy 3
1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

We see Paul, James and Timothy all interacting with the Elders:
**Titus 1 **
5The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. 6An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7Since an overseer is entrusted with God’s work, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Acts 20
17From Miletus, Paul sent to Ephesus for the elders of the church.

Philippians 1
1Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,
To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons:

The leader and sustainer of the Church:
Colossians 1
17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Giving pre-eminence to man=

Matthew 23
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’
8"But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ

Group decisions made by the Disciples and Deacons chosen:
Acts 6
2So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, “It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables. 3Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them 4and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word.”
5This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism. 6They presented these men to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them.

Which goes along with:
Matthew 18
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be[d]bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.

19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

How are they appointed?:
Acts 20
28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.

 

[schaick]

what you think doesnt really matter. the facts do.

are you in this Church? does everybody call you a Catholic? they do me.

No they call me a Christian, as I am a follower of Christ.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, we have been down this road before. The Latin (Roman) Rite is not any more Catholic than any of the other 22 Catholic Rites that are in communion with the successor of Peter.

I know Love Just messing with you. But it just how you wrote it. But I know what you mean. We are all in communion with eachother. Its all good:hug1:

 

[CMatt25]

I know Love Just messing with you. But it just how you wrote it. But I know what you mean. We are all in communion with eachother. Its all good:hug1:

I’m soooooo pleased when all the sheep can get along even those from different flocks. :extrahappy: :grouphug:

 

[schaick]

???

 

[dnu]

Protestants,

Why will you not just accept Jesus into your heart? Why do you insist on following the traditions of men (i.e. Luther, Calvin, Smyth, Wesley)? Why will you not just trust Jesus and join the one, single Church he founded for us here on earth? Jesus didn’t found the Baptist Church, Smyth did. Jesus didn’t found the Luthern Church, Luther did, Jesus didn’t found the Methodist Church, Wesley did. I don’t understand, if you love Jesus, why do you deny his Church?

Paul said “be of one mind.” He never says be of thousands and thousands of different minds loosely associated by name only.

Come home to the truth, we’d love to have you.

 

[rinnie]

I’m soooooo pleased when all the sheep can get along even those from different flocks. :extrahappy: :grouphug:

Actually Matt me and guan are from the same flock. We both go by the exact same teaching’s. The Catholic Church is the CC and has the same teaching’s as long as it is in communion with the Pope.

SHe is from a different rite but as she explained there are many rites. But we all have the same Sacraments. etc. We are of one fold. Her Church and mine are different rites but we are in communion with eachother.

Like she said she is no more Catholic then I and I then her. Because we both go by SS and OT. We all have the same teachers.

She is just a little smarter than I in explaining things But between us I do tell her what to say. Just kidding guan you know I love ya!

 

[rev_kevin]

rev kevin,

a few questions for you based on your assumptions

1 since the gospels and the NT were not written for many yrs after the death of jesus, and since the apostles were not capable of maintaing the truth, how do you know if the words of the bible which you cling to as the only truth are not without error. What infallible man wrote the words.I don’t believe I said I cling to anything. You know who wrote the words but in translation things can be misinterperated.

1. are the impressions of the catholic church which you spout off about here , the result of your study and research or the words of your own fallible church and preacher. remember according to you all churches and men are fallibleBeing raised Catholic, study to be a priest, My church has nothing to do with what I think. Yes all churches and men are fallible.
2. we have given you honest factual answers for all that you have asked. We have shown so many scriptures that back up apostolic succesion, teaching authority, the eucharist. we have shown these things to all the protestants on here and to no avail. Test your own church by these things that are in the bible and see if it stands up to the CC on each of the things you read on this site

You know they will not stand up to the CC because they are not the CC.