where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[CMatt25]

This is a “need” in your mind with the assumption (again in your mind) that the Biblical account was exactly correct 30-60 years later. I have never heard that claim before. This is a statement of faith, not of reason or evidence. Any “must” derived from the premise is also just a statement of belief.

Larkin, for an agnostic you know a lot about the meaning of faith.

 

[tweetymom]

Based on my previous dialogue with Tweety, I can say that she definitely and honestly believes that this is the case. It also happens with her very personally and individually,independent of any Church.

I am what I am and proud to be what I am a believer in Jesus who went to the cross for me and rose again. I am not independent of any church. I read the scriptures guided by the Holy Spirit, not by some person who says only they know the truth. Because I disagree with many of your interpertations does not mean that I do not belong to a church. I do same one. But the church for me and others is the Holy Church of all believers.

 

[CMatt25]

We are talking about the story staying the same

It might depend on how you interpret the story though. For instance John tells us Andrew told Peter Christ was the Messiah. Matt tells us something else and it is the interpretation of Matt by the CC which many Catholics hang their hat upon.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t understand what you are saying Doki. The Faith was deposted to the Church by God. None of us “own” it
Dokimas;6369150:

(you come accross that your church owns it and is always correct about what it is

), or can claim to be the origin of it.

The responsibility to guard what has been entrusted is taken seriously. We follow the Apostolic commandments about this, and keep the Traditions just as they were handed down to us. This is our sacred duty.

How is it condescending to rejoice when one learns that someone who has been separated from the Source of the faith still clings to some parts of it?

I’m not sure why you can’t see the difference between, ‘Praise God you know Jesus as your Savior,’ and ‘Glad to see you understand Jesus is God and Savior; I can’t wait until you see things completely as the CC teaches. You’ll be a completer Christian then.’

To the extent that our separated brethren deny part of the Apsotolic faith, their Christianity is incomplete. This does not mean we cannot rejoice over the part that has been received.

Do you think that Prisca and Aquilla did not rejoice over Apollos?

I’m not sure I understand this comment or why this comment is to me. My bad.

Apollos is an archetype of modern day Protestants.

Personally, I do, but I will concede that there are many Catholics who do not. Do you think these passages are a complete accounting of how God has commanded us to worship Him?

Of course not and that's my point.

You seem to be saying the CC has the one and only correct way to worship Jesus/God. I say God accepts true worshipers in different forms and fashions.

We have a duty to worship God the way He has commanded. The Catholic Church has preserved that. The Reformers forsook much of it.

So how do you reconcile your view with the historical record? how do you dispense with tall the references in the Early Fathers that the Church was Catholic? When do you think they went off the rails?

Can you show me any documents that will demonstrate how and when the Catholic Church started 1500 years ago?

It started, IMO, with Constantine. I’m referring to the CC specifically. It surely had a foundation in the early church, I have not doubt about that.

I am interested to see how you can substantiate that the Catholic Church started with Constantine. I am also very interested to know where the foundations of this are found in the early church. I am especially interested in how you dispense iwith the writings of those who were discipled by the Apostles (the Apostolic Fathers in the next generation).

 Simply a. because some of the teachings is not actually Biblical, IMO (some things about Mary; infant baptism, etc) and b. because the church is much bigger than the CC.

Since the Apostles had no Bible, how does this qualify as a standard of measurement? They made the deposit of faith to the Church some 350 years before the Bible was made. I need you to dispense with all the doctrines that were formed during that period.

So you could become Catholic if Catholicism would conform to your views?

Not exactly. My view is that I should be pope, but it’s not God’s will that I’d be pope.

I agree that it is not God’s will that you should be Pope, but everyone who adheres to Sola Scriptura does, in practice, become their own Pope, so your wish appears to be granted, in spite of God’s will to the contrary.

The Catholic Church is not at liberty to change the Teachings of Jesus

(Great; maybe not all their teachings are precise teachings of Jesus) or the proclamaitons.

And since these truths were committed to the Church by Jesus and the Apostles 350 years prior to the Bible being formed, how would you know that?

The Church is duty bound to preserve that which was committed by the Apsotles, and her proclamations must conform to the doctrine of Christ.

(Great goal but maybe the CC should reexamine why they teach some of the doctrines and if they are really totally accurately Biblical. You see you aren’t free to question the CC or you’re not being faithful according to the CC. That’s self-serving, IMO)

Actually, I think every generation re-examines them.

However the Bible is not the Source of Catholic doctrine. Jesus is the Source. The Catholic Church produced the NT, so it reflects the faith of the Apostles, but it is not the Source of that faith. Jesus is the Source.

If you think I am not free to question, you are mistaken. I did not get to where I am today without a lot of questioning, I assure you. There is a kind of questioning that is not really faith seeking understanding at all, but defiance. Defiance is not conducive to spiritual growth.

It seemed clear above that you want the Church to conform to your terms.

I can’t convince you of what you’ve already made up your mind about.

This is true. I will not abandon the TEachings of Christ preserved by the infallible power of His HS in the Catholic Church. that being said, I am open to dialogue with you about how the faith handed down to us from the Apsotles differs from what you have received from the Reformers, who left the Apostolic Succession about 500 years ago.

Does the Holy Spirit help you understand the Bible (interpret it for you) or does the CC interpret it for you?

The two cannot be separated, Doki. The HS is not going to lead one individual in a different direction than what He has already revealed to the Church. That is why it is important for us to know the Sacred Traditions, so that we don’t inadvertatnly stray from them.

 

[Cursilista]

This is a “need” in your mind with the assumption (again in your mind) that the Biblical account was exactly correct 30-60 years later. I have never heard that claim before. This is a statement of faith, not of reason or evidence. Any “must” derived from the premise is also just a statement of belief.

You first have to believe that there is a God. If there is in your mind, then ask yourself, Is he a God or Order or Disorder. Would he have the power, to keep what he has given to man, his word, intact? If you dont believe there is God and all this is made up, then you prove, that all that was evidenced by the OT and the NT didnt happen.

Reason and Evidence.

Is there a more accurate account of history than the OT for that time period, and does that account refute the OT’s account.

The OT foretells the coming of Christ. Christ existed. The apostles existed. The writings and history of both exist today in the form of the bible. Is there another account of history that refutes what is written in the bible.

Christianity has spread throughout the world, proof positive that someone was out there building the church of jesus.

Where is the Historical Church Founded by Jesus Christ is the Thread.

The apostles went to the ends of the earth to establish Christ’s Church. This took place shortly after Jesus died. The Churches of the East to me are proof positive that together with the church of rome, we all have the same apostolic teachings. The EO can trace their beginnings to individual apostles or their successors. This is written history. Show me where this did not occur.

Reason these facts away.

Now, Faith or belief comes into play when you have to decide, is there a God or not. The rest is laid out in the history of man and the church.

 

[guanophore]

Well then my brother Guan you’d better pray God leads me to another church (which I guess is possible) because until He does I probably won’t be changing my ID considering the Church you claim to follow, apparently to perfection, claims me. Sorry.

Didn’t I read in one of your posts that you are already attending a non-catholic church? I remember thinking that this might be the reason your posts do not reflect Catholicism.

I will not pray that you are led astray from the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I will pray the same prayer for you that I do for everyone at CAF, and all over the world, that all His sheep might be united under One Shepherd, and that by our unity and love the world will know Him.

It is disingenuous to claim you espouse a faith which you clearly do not. It causes a scandal here on CAF because it is confusing to people who come here looking for honest Catholic answers. The problem is not that the church claims you, the problem is that you do not espouse the faith whose name you have taken to yourself. This causes a misrepresentation of both yourself, and the Faith.

 

[guanophore]

From “hard core Catholic” Elvis in post 996 but don’t worry I corrected it.

Yesterday, 5:44 pm
elvisman
Regular Member Join Date: June 15, 2004
Posts: 3,353
Religion: Hard Core Catholic

Originally Posted by CMatt25
Doesn’t the Church believe other Christians, perhaps imperfect, but still are part of the body of Christ?

Elvis: No.

Oh yes, I read that, and I almost responded to it also. The Church does not evaluate the imperfection of individuals no matter what ecclesial community they are in. The reference to imperfection is about the unity (or in this case, the lack of it) not the person. We are not to judge the state of a person’s soul before God, even our own.

 

[CMatt25]

Didn’t I read in one of your posts that you are already attending a non-catholic church? I remember thinking that this might be the reason your posts do not reflect Catholicism.

I will not pray that you are led astray from the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I will pray the same prayer for you that I do for everyone at CAF, and all over the world, that all His sheep might be united under One Shepherd, and that by our unity and love the world will know Him.

It is disingenuous to claim you espouse a faith which you clearly do not. It causes a scandal here on CAF because it is confusing to people who come here looking for honest Catholic answers. The problem is not that the church claims you, the problem is that you do not espouse the faith whose name you have taken to yourself. This causes a misrepresentation of both yourself, and the Faith.

No Guan, not me. I have never ever yet attended any other than Catholic except for perhaps a wedding. But if you believe I am misrepresenting myself then you must believe the Church is wrong as well by counting me Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

It might depend on how you interpret the story though. For instance John tells us Andrew told Peter Christ was the Messiah. Matt tells us something else and it is the interpretation of Matt by the CC which many Catholics hang their hat upon.

No, Matt, this is not true. The Catholic faith is not based upon the exegesis of any scripture. The Catholic faith preceeded the writing of the NT. Catholics place their faith in the way Jesus set up the Church, and His power to make clear to His Apsotles how He wanted things done. This is why we do not interpret the selection of Matthias as a “mistake” as some of our separated brethren do.

Jesus set up an authority structure, and the Apsotles followed it. It has been followed for 2000 years. What you seem to be implying is that Jesus was to weak or disinterested to correct his own Church. what happened to that apparently powerful Christ we see in the book of Revelation? How is it he lost His ability to guide His Church? Why did He let them stay off track for so long?

 

[CMatt25]

Oh yes, I read that, and I almost responded to it also. The Church does not evaluate the imperfection of individuals no matter what ecclesial community they are in. The reference to imperfection is about the unity (or in this case, the lack of it) not the person. We are not to judge the state of a person’s soul before God, even our own.

So you agree with me and the catechism that they are incorporated into Christ? You almost responded to correct a “hardcore Catholic” is interesting but thanks for allowing me instead the opportunity to present Catholic teaching on it.

 

[guanophore]

No Guan, not me. I have never ever yet attended any other than Catholic except for perhaps a wedding. But if you believe I am misrepresenting myself then you must believe the Church is wrong as well by counting me Catholic.

Ok, well thanks for clarifying that. Can you explain to me the mystery of how you came by such anti-Catholic views? I took it for granted you were hearing them in sermons! TV perhaps?

Your posts do not represent Catholic faith. Perhaps you believe that they do, so you are not deliberately misrepesenting yourself. Perhaps you really don’t know what it means to be Catholic, so you characterize yourself this way out of ignorance.

As to what the Church considers you, the Apsotles taught that there is only one church, and therefore, all validly baptized persons are members of her. Most American Catholics are living in a state of mortal sin, and therefore, separated from salvation. They may claim to be Catholics, but that does not change the fact that they have rejected the Catholic faith.

You appear to be a rebellious subject of the Roman Pontiff. I is possible that you are just an ignorant subject. No matter how you look at it, the faith you represent here at CAF is not Catholic.

 

[CMatt25]

What you seem to be implying is that Jesus was to weak or disinterested to correct his own Church.

Of all the things I might be accused of, that was one I never saw coming. No I believe Jesus can correct His church if need be.

 

[schaick]

Scripture is clear that not everything was written. And how did it get written? How did it get a minimu of 20 years between Him saying/doing, and the gospels?

Yes in respect to the miracle of Jesus.

John 21
25Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

One of the most salient is how to understand the Scripture.

Everything that has been subtracted from the Apostolic faith from 500 years ago, until now. The remainder continues to get smaller!

We are not able to “add” Sacred Tradition. One of the defining elements of it is that it comes from the Apostles. The content is limited.

If paying for Indulgences, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, Assumption of Mary, Papal Infallibilty was an Apostolic Tradition why did it take so long for the Catholic Church to adopt them as doctrines?

That is because you don’t realize that these are Aposotlic teachings.

Can the Catholic Church prove that they are the teaching of the Apostles?

They had to be reiterated dogmatically because people had strayed so far from the Truth they did not realize that these are part of the Deposit of Faith that the Church is entrusted to guard.

Which is exactly what Luther was trying to do.

And even after Luther starnge things are happening:

newadvent.org/library/docs_pi12ac.htmnewadvent.org/library/docs_pi12ac.htm

“From the earliest ages of the Catholic Church a Christian people, whether in time of triumph or more especially in time of crisis, has addressed prayers of petition and hymns of praise and veneration to the Queen of Heaven.”

Why would a Pope call Mary, the blessed mother of our Lord and Saviour the Queen of Heaven!?!

Jeremiah 7
17 Do you not see what they are doing in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger.

Jeremiah 44
16 “We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. 18 But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine.”
19 The women added, “When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes like her image and pouring out drink offerings to her?”

**What of Sacred Catholic tradition about Jesus do Christians NOT have that only the Catholic Church has? **

 

[CMatt25]

Ok, well thanks for clarifying that. Can you explain to me the mystery of how you came by such anti-Catholic views? I took it for granted you were hearing them in sermons! TV perhaps?

Your posts do not represent Catholic faith. Perhaps you believe that they do, so you are not deliberately misrepesenting yourself. Perhaps you really don’t know what it means to be Catholic, so you characterize yourself this way out of ignorance.

As to what the Church considers you, the Apsotles taught that there is only one church, and therefore, all validly baptized persons are members of her. Most American Catholics are living in a state of mortal sin, and therefore, separated from salvation. They may claim to be Catholics, but that does not change the fact that they have rejected the Catholic faith.

You appear to be a rebellious subject of the Roman Pontiff. I is possible that you are just an ignorant subject. No matter how you look at it, the faith you represent here at CAF is not Catholic.

Guan, you probably shouldn’t take things for granted. And no I do not get my faith from TV. In fact a priest once spoke to me recently in his homily by saying although it has existed for 2000 yrs, there are problems within the Church. Through prayer, contemplation, and reason I agree but I so far have not been led to choose to completely run away from those problems. I am not “anti” anyone though. You know the Church says I am Catholic but for some reason you and others still like to say I am not. And I do not reject all Catholic teaching. Just because I may not agree with everything you do, does not make me ignorant of Catholic teaching, nor any better or worse than any other. I love Christ. I love all His body. I do believe we are united in Christ and what we agree on far outweighs what we may not. This is the cornerstone of my faith. Christ our Lord and Savior and love. I believe things we can do to show our love include those things Jesus taught us. Helping the poor, the sick, the homeless, the hungry, working not towards war but towards peace. And I try not to judge. A human, I sometimes fail at these things like all of us. But I pray I continue striving to follow Him as I am guided to do so by His Holy Spirit. I hope that helps you a little. Peace and God bless.

 

[larkin31]

You first have to believe that there is a God. If there is in your mind, then ask yourself, Is he a God or Order or Disorder. Would he have the power, to keep what he has given to man, his word, intact? If you dont believe there is God and all this is made up, then you prove, that all that was evidenced by the OT and the NT didnt happen.

Reason and Evidence.

Is this the thread to debate the “reason” and “evidence” for the Catholic claim to being the ONLY true church of Jesus?

I will only say here that your “reasoning” here begins by stating a logical fallacy in your initial question: “Is he a God of Order or Disorder?” This is a false dichotomy, as nearly all dichotomies are that are used in logical argument. This divides reality into two false categories (without definition) and it allows ONLY two choices, both of them absolute positions (this is typical of false dichotomies). So, yeah, we can talk more about “reason” here if you would like.

And Jesus in that Temple created some “disorder” (and several other places), so, I would not focus too much on that issue.

 

[tweetymom]

Guan, you probably shouldn’t take things for granted. And no I do not get my faith from TV. In fact a priest once spoke to me recently in his homily by saying although it has existed for 2000 yrs, there are problems within the Church. Through prayer, contemplation, and reason I agree but I so far have not been led to choose to completely run away from those problems. I am not “anti” anyone though. You know the Church says I am Catholic but for some reason you and others still like to say I am not. And I do not reject all Catholic teaching. Just because I may not agree with everything you do, does not make me ignorant of Catholic teaching, nor any better or worse than any other. I love Christ. I love all His body. I do believe we are united in Christ and what we agree on far outweighs what we may not. This is the cornerstone of my faith. Christ our Lord and Savior and love. I believe things we can do to show our love include those things Jesus taught us. Helping the poor, the sick, the homeless, the hungry, working not towards war but towards peace. And I try not to judge. A human, I sometimes fail at these things like all of us. But I pray I continue striving to follow Him as I am guided to do so by His Holy Spirit. I hope that helps you a little. Peace and God bless.

Matt I truely believe in all you say and God Bless you in you life as you follow Jesus. Some people believe if you are not hardcore, you are nothing.

 

[guanophore]

Of all the things I might be accused of, that was one I never saw coming. No I believe Jesus can correct His church if need be.

I am very glad to hear this!

given that, how do you explain that he did not do so?

 

[Dokimas]

The holy spirit through the catholic church! It is the one and only church that has the authority
to interpret scripture.

Matthew

I see why some catholics here see Jesus = CC. It’s the CCthis and the CCthat and there’s no real truth or Jesus without accepting the CC.​

So what you are really saying is the CC interprets for you. You put your faith in the CC for the CC is Jesus. The CC tells us it is correct because, it says, Jesus said we are.

 

[CMatt25]

Matt I truely believe in all you say and God Bless you in you life as you follow Jesus. Some people believe if you are not hardcore, you are nothing.

Tweetymom, thank you so much and God bless you. I may be a work in progress my whole life on my walk with Him. But indeed I know I’m not “nothing” when I am still walking with Him!

 

[CMatt25]

I am very glad to hear this!

given that, how do you explain that he did not do so?

I’m guessing you know He didn’t because the CC says he didn’t?