where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[lil_flower_luv]

Uh oh. This should be interesting. Elvis or Guan wrong? I wonder which is not Catholic?

Well, we know where you stand.

 

[CMatt25]

Well, we know where you stand.

Hi Therese, yep with the body of Christ. I hope you are having a blessed day. Now I really need to go feed my body or else I may be about to be called a liar since i’ve been going to eat for awhile. Peace.

 

[adrift]

I gave you biblical evidence.

Luke 1:34
Now you make think it thin but it is there in the Bible. I would like to hear your explanation of that scripture.

I am asking about the life-long pledge

We are all well-aware of Luke 1:34

 

[larkin31]

Catholics do not go Sola Scriptura. Whoops, you knew that. We are Jesus’ founded Church and He gave us no indication to stick just to the Bible.

But in Luke 1:34 When Mary says, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” and she has already been promised to Joseph, we know that she is hinting she has vowed to remain a virgin her whole life. And it makes sense.

I see no indication of a life-long pledge in her words:* 34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?* And her virgin-for-life status is mentioned nowhere else in the NT?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Hi Therese, yep with the body of Christ.

You are, Matt. But you will be judged on how Catholic you were.

 

[Dokimas]

Elvisman, this position is not consistent with Catholic teaching. The mystical Body of Christ is much larger than the visible body, and there are many members of it that are not “visible” in the world, or the Church that is in the world. Only Christ knows those who are His.

All who are validly baptized are joined to the Head, and we are therefore all members one of another.

You use the term, mystical I may use the term, invisible as you pointed out when you said ‘not “visible”’.

 

[adrift]

BTW, I wouldn’t call it an interpretation but understanding. I’m not smart enough to interpret.

 

[elvisman]

I tried to find a martyr because of belief in transubstanciation. I couldn’t find any. Could you provide a link that reveals your fact?

**Are you under the false assumption that history knows the name of every person martyred in the Early Church?? Is that what you think?
We only know the names of very few of these early martyrs.

According to the Journal of Early Christian Studies/Johns Hopkins University:
"The various attributes of these “cannibals” are also found in the charges against Christians, which represent a perceived threat to society as a whole, expresssed in terms of the human body as depicted in the fantastic stories of ritual murder."

They were killed for a variety of beliefs - including cannibalism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_contradiction
http://www.bible-researcher.com/persecution.html

Paul taught that Jesus said to take communion in remembrance. Is he an early enough church father?
1Co 11:24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
1Co 11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

**Why stop there? **
Why not finish what Paul told them about receiving communion?
I’ll fill in the blanks for you:

In 1 Corinthians 11:27-29, St. Paul warns, “Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.” A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.”

Pretty harsh words of warning - if it were only a symbol, don’tcha think??
**The word “Remembrance” doesn’t nullify the Real Presence, as we who receive the Eucharist weekly or daily can attest. We show remembrance everytime we receive the Lord in the Eucharist.

Remember - Jesus called it MY BODY and MY BLOOD.

 

[Dokimas]

Uh oh. This should be interesting. Elvis or Guan wrong? I wonder which is not Catholic?

 

[larkin31]

I am asking about the life-long pledge

We are all well-aware of Luke 1:34

You want to know what about this passage? I honestly don’t think that the event (angel visitation and virgin birth) occurred at all. But I am trying to understand here how Catholics determine their dogma from the scriptures. It is fascinating, and alien, to me.

 

[adrift]

Mary, who was married, asked how could she get pregnant. Now **I think she knew how this occurs so the question is strange **unless she made a vow of virginity.

Don’t come back that she was engaged because it doesn’t mean the same as it does today. It meant that she had not yet gone to live with her husband.

So how do YOU explain her question?

 

[Dokimas]

1 Corinthians chapter 12, elvisman:

***For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.

Now the body is not a single part, but many.***

How about these verses in Mark 9?

38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”
39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.
40 "For he who is not against us is on our side.

 

[Dokimas]

**Sorry **- but you’re wrong - if you’re speaking in general terms.

The Church teaches that the Church is the body of Christ. The Body is made up of those who are part of his true Church - not all divorced factions thereof.

She also teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church. This does not include, however, the invincibly ignorant. Those ignorant of the truth or those who are desiring to be with Christ but are ignorant of the means of grace (CCC 1260) MAY obtain salvation even if they are not members of the Church. In the end - only God knows who is invincibly ignorant.

Ergo - if you are outside of the Church - you are outside of the Body.

Mark 9

38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”
39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.
40 "For he who is not against us is on our side.​

My guess is that Jesus disagrees with you, Elvis.

 

[CMatt25]

You are, Matt. But you will be judged on how Catholic you were.

On how universal I was Or on how much I loved? Or on how much I showed my love by expressing faith in ways Christ taught us to do in righteousness for the poor, the sick, the homeless? Or do you mean I will be judged by how much I followed everything the Catholic Church says? So for instance if I missed Mass on a Thursday Nov 1 some yr that would mortally doom me without repenting for that even if I loved and showed my faith by doing some of those other things?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I see no indication of a life-long pledge in her words:* 34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?* And her virgin-for-life status is mentioned nowhere else in the NT?

Numbers 30:3-7: Or when a woman vows a vow to the LORD, and binds herself by a pledge, while within her father’s house, in her youth, and her father hears of her vow and of her pledge by which she has bound herself, and says nothing to her; then all her vows shall stand, and every pledge by which she has bound herself shall stand. But if her father expresses disapproval to her on the day that he hears of it, no vow of hers, no pledge by which she has bound herself, shall stand; and the LORD will forgive her, because her father opposed her. And if she is married to a husband, while under her vows or any thoughtless utterance of her lips by which she has bound herself, and her husband hears of it, and says nothing to her on the day that he hears; then her vows shall stand, and her pledges by which she has bound herself shall stand.

This explains Mary’s reply to Gabriel. Otherwise, why would she ask such a question, if she knew she was soon to be married to Joseph?

And you will interpret this however it suits you. Like I said, we are not sola scriptura.

 

[Loboto-Me]

You want to know what about this passage? I honestly don’t think that the event (angel visitation and virgin birth) occurred at all. But I am trying to understand here how Catholics determine their dogma from the scriptures. It is fascinating, and alien, to me.

You’re forgetting that the scripture as beautiful as it is not the WHOLE truth. As much as it sounds like you’d like for it to be ALL written down it isn’t (now THAT’S in scripture). We also rely on the Apostles’ word of mouth. Remember, Jesus also asked for his beloved apostle to go and live with Mary after his death. Do you not think that during his stay with Mary, he would not have learned all about her life? What tells you that he had to write it down rather than just talk about it to the other disciples?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

On how universal I was Or on how much I loved? Or on how much I showed my love by expressing faith in ways Christ taught us to do in righteousness for the poor, the sick, the homeless? Or do you mean I will be judged by how much I followed everything the Catholic Church says? So for instance if I miss Mass on Nov 1 that alone would mortally doom me?

The day you became Catholic you made a life-long pledge. A pledge to Mother Church. A pledge to God. And by baptism and all the Sacraments you are CATHOLIC. Yes, you will be judged on how much you love. But God will not overlook your life as a true Catholic. What you believe you should live. Otherwise maybe you shouldn’t be Catholic.

If picking and choosing is for you, I know of some churches…

 

[elvisman]

1 Corinthians chapter 12, elvisman:

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.

Now the body is not a single part, but many.

You’re absolutely correct. The body IS made up of many parts (members) and we all have different functions.

---

**Nowhere, however, does this passage say that those who divorce themselves from that Body remain it it. On the contrary - we are warned against factions (1 Cor. 1:11-13). **
In John 17 - Jesus fervently prayed to the Father for the UNITY of the Body - not the splintering of it.

Finally - Malachi 2:16 tells us that God HATES divorce - whether marital OR ecclesiastical:
"For I hate divorce, says the LORD, the God of Israel, And covering one’s garment with injustice, says the LORD of hosts; You must then safeguard life that is your own, and not break faith. "

 

[adrift]

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

      Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

      Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 

[elvisman]

Mark 9

38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”
39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.
40 "For he who is not against us is on our side.​

My guess is that Jesus disagrees with you, Elvis.

He wasn’t speaking of splintered factions as is the case with Protestantism - only that they were not a part of their group.

Don’t forget, friend - Jesus ALSO said the following about those who did not remain in him:
**"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. **
**Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ **
**Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’ **