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SadPotato
Guest
The people who were sent to the gas chambers weren’t given the opportunity to exercise their free will.
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Convert3
Guest
Sure they were. They could trust in God that their souls would be taken into His loving arms, or they could deny Him. Yes, their human fate was controlled by the Nazis, but not their soul.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
St Teresa Benedicta of the Cross was offered a chance to be freed. She said no. She felt called to sacrifice herself for her people.
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PennyinCanada
Guest
A wandering mind. lol
I connect Padre Pio with WWII. If I was going to talk to an atheist, movie chat could be a launching point to introduce them to Padre Pio who was a force for good in WWII. Where was God? He had friends on earth that He helped to do amazing things. “The force was with them”. It’s a bunch of puzzle pieces that fit together in my brain, looking at what is familiar to an atheist and jumping off from there.
My apologies to those who don’t see the connection. It’s a stretch. lol Thanks for the comment.
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SadPotato
Guest
In a situation where they were facing a senseless and tragic death, how could anyone blame them if they denied/disowned God in their last moments?
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catholic03
Well-known member
If this is really a cause for your doubting the existence of God then surely the death of around 50 million Americans by abortion must shock you.
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woolycaterpillar
Guest
Why does God not do something about abortion or infanticide? Why does He allow some states and countries to use euthanasia and assisted suicide to solve their problems with terminally ill or old people? Why can’t He make everyone good and loving. Why can’t He change people and make them gentle and kind?
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AlNg
Guest
I don’t think so. There are people who have no freedom or restricted freedom, and they still love others.
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meltzerboy2
Guest
Where was and is G-d during all the unspeakable tragic events that have beset humanity throughout history? We cannot really answer that question. The late Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel stated that G-d was not present in the death camps. On the other hand, some Orthodox Jews today say that focusing on the minutiae of ceremonial life in Judaism is the Jewish people’s way of counteracting the evil that presented itself in the Holocaust. And then again the Holocaust precipitated the founding of the Jewish State of Israel, the fulfilling of G-d’s promise to the Jews and all the nations, despite the problems and bloodshed that have resulted from it. In short, there is no easy answer. Of course one can spout platitudes such as free will and good vs. evil, but to those survivors who experienced first-hand the atrocities of the Holocaust or other such tragedies, or whose family members did, there will always remain the pain and anguish and lingering doubts.
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SadPotato
Guest
What’s the abortion version of Godwin’s Law? I really need to know.
Also, I don’t doubt the existence of your version of God, because I don’t believe he exists.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
There are Catholics who died in the camps too. There was one camp with dozens, if not hundreds, of priests. I realize it was a very small number compared to the Jewish people, but I have tried to respond to the questions from a Catholic perspective rather than trying to impose some thought process onto Jewish people, which not being Jewish does not seem like my place to do - more like your place to do.
catholic03
Well-known member
I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in accordance with Church teaching. The Holocaust was the worst even in the 20th Century but I was just making a comparison.
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AlNg
Guest
He is quite famous, but somewhat controversial. A few have questioned his version of events, although the general opinion is in his favor.
The general question concerns why an infinitely good and infinitely powerful G-d would permit evil. I don’t see how you can claim that G-d is not present at a place where evil occurs. That is a flat denial of the omnipresence of G-d.
Further, the problem of evil is not solved by invoking free will. There is evil occurring due to natural causes and these natural causes have nothing to do with human free will.
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PatK63
Guest
Right! They were victims of monsters who exercised their free will.
God sent His Son to show the world a better way. Gradually, I feel the world is a better place.
God did not take away the free will of those who killed His Son and He does not take away the free will of monsters who appear in every generation.
God sent His Son to show the world a better way. Gradually, I feel the world is a better place.
God did not take away the free will of those who killed His Son and He does not take away the free will of monsters who appear in every generation.
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SadPotato
Guest
But for some reason he almost always lets the monsters’ free will overshadow that of everyone else. That’s screwed up.
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Wozza
Guest
As you said, there is a chance they might end up in heaven. So there’s a chance they might end up in hell as well. You would have no idea and neither would I. The problem would be that as well as having his wife and daughter killed and people suggesting that there will be something better than them being rescued appearing somewhere down the line, he has to spend the rest of his life praying that they aren’t suffering eternal torment on top of what they went through in this life.
If I was the guy I wouldn’t want anyone suggesting that my family was murdered for someone else’s benefit.
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Wozza
Guest
Yes. But…PatK63:
But for some reason he almost always lets the monsters’ free will overshadow that of everyone else. That’s screwed up.
So we should be thankfull for evil acts because if they didn’t occur things would be even worse. At least, that’s how it seems to work.
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meltzerboy2
Guest
Actually it is not even my place to impose thoughts on those who were directly involved in the atrocity, whether Jewish or not. I can only speak for myself and my own feelings about this tragic event. Yes, of course there were Catholics who were tortured and murdered in the camps as well as other groups of people. And there were Christians, including Catholics, who risked their own lives and the lives of their families to shelter Jews from the Nazis: the righteous among the nations, as Jews call them. Ordinary people are seemingly capable of extremes of behavior but thank G-d for the righteous among us.
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PatK63
Guest
That is not true! Read the lives of the saints and you will see how much good people can accomplish!
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Michael_Anthony
Guest
I’m not saying we should be thankful for the evil, what I meant was, that any evil action that God was incapable of bringing a greater good out of (with our cooperation), would be prevented by God, rather, in order that free will be maintained (something he clearly views as an inviolable good) and that the greater good may be achieved, He may permit the evil to pass.
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