Where was God when my wife died

[inocente]

Speak to him the truth, gently but nicely, no need to change that. Just tell him what helps you. It may just be what he needs to hear. Prayers for you both, God Bless, Memaw

Thanks, yes, I’ll try. Everyone is a bit worried for him. We live up in the mountains here, and two other people who’ve lost loved ones have become virtual recluses.

 

[Della]

Sorry Della, I didn’t ignore what you said but we of course have theological differences on such matters as Adam and original sin, so I left it to Catholic readers to comment on those areas. Perhaps we will discuss it in the Moral Theology forum some time.

If you start the thread I will come. But it would be in the Apologetics forum. Moral Theology is for questions like: “Is it a sin to do______.”

I’m sure you’re right that they all have a thorough theological grounding, but most of the nuns are nurses and technicians (radiography and so on) and I don’t think any of them knew my wife wasn’t Catholic. As it’s virtually everyone’s birth religion here, I think that would be their assumption.

Ah yes, you mentioned that. Sorry. Still you did write that none of the nuns talked to you about your wife’s suffering/death, so I assumed you expected them to. :tiphat: As you cited, they were occupied in caring for her, which was their primary duty. I’m sure, though that if you had asked them about why God allows suffering they would have talked to you about it.

The priest, in everything, reminds me of what Pope Francis called “integral humanism” in a mighty fine speech last year:

“A process that promotes an integral humanism and the culture of encounter and relationship: this is the Christian way of promoting the common good, the joy of living. Here, faith and reason unite, the religious dimension and the various aspects of human culture – art, science, labour, literature… Christianity combines transcendence and incarnation; for its capacity to always revitalize thought and life, in the face of the threat of dissatisfaction and disillusionment which can creep into hearts and spread in the streets.” - news.va/en/news/pope-francis-my-advice-is-always-dialogue-dialogue

And it’s fine as far as it goes, but of course it’s not the sum total of Christianity nor of Catholic thought/teaching. Quotes can only go so far in conveying what anyone believes because they are snippets taken from a greater whole. For Catholics that greater whole is the entire history of God’s dealings with humankind. Which would be quite a lot to cover in one talk.

 

[Nan_S]

Thank you Nan for that beautiful post. I have kept coming back to it throughout the day.

A friend of ours lost his wife to lung cancer early last year, she was my wife’s best friend. He has found it intensely difficult to move on. I will try to help him with what you said, although he is agnostic (or atheist, I’m not sure) so I’ll need to change it here and there. Thank you again.

Thank you. You are in my prayers.

I have shared this thread with my friend’s husband as well. I hope he reads it. The particular pain that you and he share is greatly helped by knowing it is not borne alone.

Thank you for opening up this conversation.

 

[tonyrey]

inocente, I am convinced God was and is with both you and your wife - and all of us:

35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death?

Romans 8:35

Strangely enough, DH Lawrence believed in spiritual love:

One must learn to love, and go through a good deal of suffering to get to it… and the journey is always towards the other soul…

Tragedy is like strong acid - it dissolves away all but the very gold of truth.

Poor Lawrence died at the age of 44 without having the consolation of being a Christian whereas we in spite of our doubts and temptations can repeat St Paul’s words:

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord…

Romans 8:37-39

Amen.

You are in our prayers…

Tony

 

[oldcelt]

I’m sorry my friend, but He was nowhere to be found. Our lives are ours…the unfortunate death of your wife was a consequence of our life here. I know that seems cold and harsh, but I truly believe it to be true.

We are all born as a result of our parent’s union…we all die as a result of the chances of life. Truly read what is written and see which scenario makes most sense.

 

[tonyrey]

I’m sorry my friend, but He was nowhere to be found. Our lives are ours…the unfortunate death of your wife was a consequence of our life here. I know that seems cold and harsh, but I truly believe it to be true.

We are all born as a result of our parent’s union…we all die as a result of the chances of life. Truly read what is written and see which scenario makes most sense.

Deism is false if God is nowhere to be found and **nothing **makes sense if everything is the result of Chance.

 

[Dorothy]

Deism is false if God is nowhere to be found and **nothing **makes sense if everything is the result of Chance.

Amen! God is perfect Love, and shows it through His Son. Come Holy Spirit and spread your sevenfold gifts to all the nations…use us as your instruments.

 

[inocente]

If you start the thread I will come. But it would be in the Apologetics forum. Moral Theology is for questions like: “Is it a sin to do______.”

Oh yes of course. Although I only go to Apologetics to understand doctrinal differences rather than debate them, as I’m a big fan of Romans 14. Whereas anything else I’ll argue all day.

 

[inocente]

Thank you for opening up this conversation.

All the thanks are due to you guys for taking part.

 

[inocente]

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord…

Years ago, a pastor spent ninety minutes deconstructing that sentence phrase by phrase, word by word, until he was certain no one present could have even the tiniest doubt that they are loved unconditionally, now and always, and nothing under any circumstance, nothing they could do nor nothing done to them, could ever diminish that love. He knew how many people find it hard to truly accept that Jesus really does love a wretch like them. Amazing Grace.

*You are in our prayers…

Tony*

That means a lot to me that after all our run ins. Thank you Tony.

 

[Della]

I just noticed that I was remiss in not telling you that you have been in my prayers since I first read your OP. Be assured that God is with us always, even when we cannot feel him anywhere, most especially when we can’t sense him in our hearts/souls, and no matter what we are going through. And even though you may not feel it necessary, I have been offering prayers for the repose of your wife’s soul. May she and all the faithful departed rest in the peace of God.

My favorite Psalm:

[1] O LORD, my heart is not lifted up,
my eyes are not raised too high;
I do not occupy myself with things
too great and too marvelous for me.
[2] But I have calmed and quieted my soul,
like a child quieted at its mother’s breast;
like a child that is quieted is my soul.
[3] O Israel, hope in the LORD
from this time forth and for evermore.

 

[josh987654321]

My wife was diagnosed with cancer in 2012, and underwent an operation followed by chemo, but sadly took a turn for the worse last Christmas and died in February. I miss her lots.

I’m so sorry for your loss. I hope you won’t mind if I say a prayer for you both.

Our local Catholic priest is new in town, and the first time we met was when I asked him to officiate at the funeral. His dad was very ill at the time and we got wet-eyed together. He said he will do any kind of rite, not just Christian, to help the loved ones of the departed, and offered either the town church or the local village chapel. I told him of my wife’s wish for a simple Baptist service. We sang psalm 23 in English as she had wanted: “Yea, though I walk in death’s dark vale / Yet will I fear no ill / For Thou art with me, and Thy rod / And staff my comfort still.”

Neither the priest nor the nuns in the hospital offered any proofs about why God allows suffering, or if there is such a place as heaven, or even whether God exists. Those kinds of apologetic might be popular on CAF but turn out to be irrelevant in the face of death. All that matters then is the simple intuition, for which no proof is possible or asked, “Thou art with me”.

Amen, that is so very true inocente,

I hope you don’t mind if I share with you a previous posts of mine on ‘Pain and Suffering’ that I hope will provide you with as much comfort as it has me.

Part 1
Part 2

Please feel free to discuss any of the above. (It will also help me at this time. )

Acts 7:56
56 Then Stephen said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right side of God!”

Re: Where was God when my wife died? … By her side. He waits patiently for all His children and when we say ‘yes’ to Him, He is very Prodigal with His love and mercy.

http://s28.postimg.org/6bvy5pai5/Prodigal_Son.jpg

God Bless you inocente, I hope you find comfort and solace in our Lord Jesus Christ who is love and mercy itself.

When the cross of suffering weighs heavy on you, remember that you are but pilgrims on this earth. Beyond the tomb, lies a wonderfully, more beautiful world, which God has prepared for His faithful children.

“Love Him totally, He who totally surrendered Himself for your love.” - Clare of Assisi

There is also another quote by Pope Francis that I read under someone’s signature that goes something like this, When all is said and done, know that we are loved infinitely. - Pope Francis

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[inocente]

I’m sorry my friend, but He was nowhere to be found. Our lives are ours…the unfortunate death of your wife was a consequence of our life here. I know that seems cold and harsh, but I truly believe it to be true.

We are all born as a result of our parent’s union…we all die as a result of the chances of life. Truly read what is written and see which scenario makes most sense.

Just between us two, and keep this strictly to yourself, no blabbing now, there have always been days when I’m a true blue atheist, and others when I’m a theist to my core.

But Jesus is always with me. Because he said he’d never leave me, so how could he go away?

To me God Almighty is that which is too great to be put into words, and once we try we risk losing that greatness (or as the saying goes, putting God in our pocket). Sounds very OT Jewish I guess, somewhere around Isaiah.

But as for making sense of it, the most sensible exposition on this that I know of comes from a Sikh bedtime prayer which contains the lines:

*Thousand are thine eyes, yet thou hast no eyes;
Thousand are thy forms, yet thou hast no form;
Thousand are thy lotus feet, and yet thou hast no feet;
Thousand are thy noses to smell, yet thou hast no nose.
I am enchanted with thy play.

• shabad by Guru Nanak
• sung here by Snatam Kaur*

 

[inocente]

I just noticed that I was remiss in not telling you that you have been in my prayers since I first read your OP. Be assured that God is with us always, even when we cannot feel him anywhere, most especially when we can’t sense him in our hearts/souls, and no matter what we are going through. And even though you may not feel it necessary, I have been offering prayers for the repose of your wife’s soul. May she and all the faithful departed rest in the peace of God.

My favorite Psalm:

[1] O LORD, my heart is not lifted up,
my eyes are not raised too high;
I do not occupy myself with things
too great and too marvelous for me.
[2] But I have calmed and quieted my soul,
like a child quieted at its mother’s breast;
like a child that is quieted is my soul.
[3] O Israel, hope in the LORD
from this time forth and for evermore.

Thank you Della.

You’ll know that Baptists have an adult baptism. Afterwards it’s customary for each of the newly baptized to make a short speech to the church if they want. The psalm I chose was exactly that one . Did you know Bernstein set it to music in his Chichester Psalms?

Here it is by the Bow Valley Chorus (For anyone who doesn’t know it, the 3rd movement starts with conflict, then the choir sings psalm 131 in Hebrew, then after the soloists sing the last two lines Bernstein ends with the choir chanting from psalm 133, Behold how good and pleasant it is when brethren live together in unity!).

 

[Della]

Thank you Della.

You’ll know that Baptists have an adult baptism. Afterwards it’s customary for each of the newly baptized to make a short speech to the church if they want. The psalm I chose was exactly that one . Did you know Bernstein set it to music in his Chichester Psalms?

Here it is by the Bow Valley Chorus (For anyone who doesn’t know it, the 3rd movement starts with conflict, then the choir sings psalm 131 in Hebrew, then after the soloists sing the last two lines Bernstein ends with the choir chanting from psalm 133, Behold how good and pleasant it is when brethren live together in unity!).

Thank you for the link. As always Bernstein’s choral pieces are hauntingly beautiful. I wouldn’t want to go to sleep listening to it, but it’s quite lovely just the same.

We Catholics also have adult baptism for converts called: catechumens. We’ve had this rite since 33 AD when St. Peter brought in 3000 converts with one sermon.

 

[inocente]

I’m so sorry for your loss. I hope you won’t mind if I say a prayer for you both.

Of course not . Hi Josh, long time since we spoke together.

*I hope you don’t mind if I share with you a previous posts of mine on ‘Pain and Suffering’ that I hope will provide you with as much comfort as it has me.

Part 1*
Part 2

Thank you, I will read them when my brain is fresh, it’s seven p.m. here.

Acts 7:56
56 Then Stephen said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right side of God!”*

Re: Where was God when my wife died? … By her side. He waits patiently for all His children and when we say ‘yes’ to Him, He is very Prodigal with His love and mercy.

I don’t know Josh. On the one hand it sounds comforting, but on the other why would He just stand there? I mean the Good Samaritan didn’t just stand there, he stepped up and did something.

OK you might say, it’s only a metaphor, but metaphors don’t heal the sick or feed the hungry. I mean I see where you’re coming from, but I’d tend to interpret it more as meaning that God is in the doctors and nurses who cared for her, the surgeon who prolonged her life, the people who developed the chemo, the friends who rallied around her. If that makes any kind of sense.

There are various views on this question in the bible, and many great minds have pondered it since, so I don’t suppose we’ll be able to answer it here .

God Bless you inocente, I hope you find comfort and solace in our Lord Jesus Christ who is love and mercy itself.

Thank you.

When the cross of suffering weighs heavy on you, remember that you are but pilgrims on this earth. Beyond the tomb, lies a wonderfully, more beautiful world, which God has prepared for His faithful children.

You have a way of raising good points. I’m not sure about eternal life. This life here and now is too short, especially for my wife, but even if we live to be a hundred it’s still too short. But living for a million years would be ten thousand times that life span. That’s an excessively long period of time, unimaginable. What would we do after the first billion years? The first trillion? And that doesn’t even make a tiny dent in eternity. People say we would be filled with joy, and being filled with anything is OK for a while, then it gets to be a real drag!!!

So I’m not sure the theology of eternal life has been rigorously thought out. Does anyone knows of a good theological/philosophical book that explores this?

 

[Della]

On the one hand it sounds comforting, but on the other why would He just stand there? I mean the Good Samaritan didn’t just stand there, he stepped up and did something.

That reference is that of St. Stephen’s vision as he was being stoned to death for the sake of Christ. What it says is that even in our worst sufferings Christ sees and knows all and he is supporting us. He never promised we’d have a life free of pain, suffering, persecution. Indeed, he promised just the opposite. To embrace Christ is to embrace the cross for without the cross there can be no redemption.

OK you might say, it’s only a metaphor, but metaphors don’t heal the sick or feed the hungry. I mean I see where you’re coming from, but I’d tend to interpret it more as meaning that God is in the doctors and nurses who cared for her, the surgeon who prolonged her life, the people who developed the chemo, the friends who rallied around her. If that makes any kind of sense.

It’s not metaphorical it’s spiritual–those terms are not interchangeable. And indeed, our hands helping others are God’s hands in this world. Sometimes he steps in and allows healing and other miracles to happen, but that is for his glory as much as for our good. By and large, we are to be Christ in the world. That’s why we’re here.

There are various views on this question in the bible, and many great minds have pondered it since, so I don’t suppose we’ll be able to answer it here .

Which is why the Bible isn’t enough. it’s doesn’t speak for itself, it needs an interpreter, as do all written documents sacred or otherwise. Who has been given God’s word but his Church? Seek your answers in her because Jesus promised he would lead his Church into all truth.

I’m not sure about eternal life. This life here and now is too short, especially for my wife, but even if we live to be a hundred it’s still too short. But living for a million years would be ten thousand times that life span. That’s an excessively long period of time, unimaginable. What would we do after the first billion years? The first trillion? And that doesn’t even make a tiny dent in eternity. People say we would be filled with joy, and being filled with anything is OK for a while, then it gets to be a real drag!!!

So I’m not sure the theology of eternal life has been rigorously thought out. Does anyone knows of a good theological/philosophical book that explores this?

You are thinking in strictly physical terms not spiritual. You’re like Nicodemus asking Jesus how he could enter into his mother’s womb to be born again. We have to look beyond the merely physical understanding of time and space. Eternity is now–not some day. And it doesn’t last years because time has no meaning in eternity. It is the eternal now–when everything is what it is. What name did God give Moses when he asked God for his name? He said, “I am that I am.” IOW, he simply is. Time has no meaning to God. He exists outside time and space, which are his creations. We too will exist outside time and space after the resurrection of our bodies, whether that be with God or without him.

 

[tonyrey]

…
You have a way of raising good points. I’m not sure about eternal life. This life here and now is too short, especially for my wife, but even if we live to be a hundred it’s still too short. But living for a million years would be ten thousand times that life span. That’s an excessively long period of time, unimaginable. What would we do after the first billion years? The first trillion? And that doesn’t even make a tiny dent in eternity. People say we would be filled with joy, and being filled with anything is OK for a while, then it gets to be a real drag!!!

Time doesn’t exist in heaven.

So I’m not sure the theology of eternal life has been rigorously thought out. Does anyone knows of a good theological/philosophical book that explores this?

I don’t think it’s possible to analyse the nature of heaven in great detail but I’m sure being reunited with your wife will give you the greatest joy you could ever experience. You will never want to be parted again from her - or from Our Lord and the saints.

Love inspires us to be creative and appreciate the beauty of what God and His children create. The great masterpieces of art, music, literature and philosophy in this world give us some idea of the unfulfilled potential and power of reason, emotion and imagination. The sheer size of the universe makes us realise how little we know about eternal life. As Hamlet said, there are far more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in our philosophy…

 

[Gorgias]

This is partly to apologize to any posters who I upset before I abruptly stopped posting last December.

Welcome back, inocente.

My wife was diagnosed with cancer in 2012, and underwent an operation followed by chemo, but sadly took a turn for the worse last Christmas and died in February. I miss her lots.

My condolences on your loss. I’ll pray for you today, and if you don’t mind, I’ll pray for the repose of your wife’s soul at my Mass tomorrow…

Neither the priest nor the nuns in the hospital offered any proofs about why God allows suffering, or if there is such a place as heaven, or even whether God exists. Those kinds of apologetic might be popular on CAF but turn out to be irrelevant in the face of death.

To be fair, when posting in an apologetics or philosophy forum here, you’re asking to be engaged in a conversation about theology, not asking for compassion or condolences. I’ve seen much of the latter in our prayer forums, though. Either way, though, considering that you’re reaching out today for compassion, please know that our thoughts and prayers are with you…

Please feel free to discuss any of the above. (It will also help me at this time. )

You spoke of ‘fairness’ in one of your posts in this thread. I’ve meditated on that question recently, especially in the context of the young man in California who recently committed a killing spree, before killing himself. He was mentally disturbed, to be sure, but his perspective was that it “wasn’t fair” that other young people were having sex and he was not, and therefore, it was clear to him that there was an inherent unfairness in life. My ruminations led me to ask the question “what does ‘it isn’t fair’ mean, really?” It seems to me that, on some level, it means that we believe that we are entitled to some good which we are not receiving. So, the question boils down to the question of what God owes us. OldCelt would have us believe that there is no God, since we don’t get what we perceive of as our due. I’m not at all certain that this is a reasonable perspective.

Rather, we need to ask ourselves what it is that God has given us – and what obligations God assumes by virtue of that gift. As Christians, we also – I think – must ask what we’ve forfeited, individually and as the human race, by virtue of our choice to reject God and to sin.

So, in a way, you’re right, inocente – at this point in your life, I’m not certain that you want to debate, but rather, you need to grieve. When you want to discuss the question at a theoretical, theological level, however, it might be helpful to discuss what it is that God does (or doesn’t) owe us. Does He owe us a long life? Does He owe us any minimum amount of time on this earth? Has He ever promised us a certain length of time here? Or, rather, do His promises have to do with eternal life, lived in heaven?

I’ll be praying for you, brother…

Blessings,
G.

 

[josh987654321]

Of course not . Hi Josh, long time since we spoke together.

I don’t know Josh. On the one hand it sounds comforting, but on the other why would He just stand there? I mean the Good Samaritan didn’t just stand there, he stepped up and did something.

He did, He was made man, healed our illnesses, feed the hungry, preached love and mercy and then was crucified for it.

OK you might say, it’s only a metaphor, but metaphors don’t heal the sick or feed the hungry.

I don’t believe it’s a metaphor, just as I don’t believe Stephen seeing Jesus standing at the right side of God before he was stoned to death was a metaphor either.

I mean I see where you’re coming from, but I’d tend to interpret it more as meaning that God is in the doctors and nurses who cared for her, the surgeon who prolonged her life, the people who developed the chemo, the friends who rallied around her. If that makes any kind of sense.

It makes complete sense. I believe it’s both.

Jesus to St. Faustina

"My kingdom on earth is My life in the human soul" (Diary, 1784).

There are various views on this question in the bible, and many great minds have pondered it since, so I don’t suppose we’ll be able to answer it here .

Yes, but there is one passage in the Gospels that hits me hard.
"Jesus Speaks about His Suffering and Death:

Matthew 16:21-23

21 From then on, Jesus began telling his disciples what would happen to him. He said, “I must go to Jerusalem. There the nation’s leaders, the chief priests, and the teachers of the Law of Moses will make me suffer terribly. I will be killed, but three days later I will rise to life.”

22 Peter took Jesus aside and told him to stop talking like that. He said, “God would never let this happen to you, Lord!”

23 Jesus turned to Peter and said,** “Satan, get away from me! You’re in my way because you think like everyone else and not like God.” **

It’s Satan in the book of Job that basically tells God that the only reason Job loves him is because he avoids the cross, Satan say’s “Wait until he is faced with the cross and he will curse you to your face.”

I also believe C.S. Lewis writes a good piece in his book ‘Screwtape Letters’ where the senior devil, Screwtape, writes to his junior tempter, Wormwood, about how to lead a human astray.

Do not be deceived, Wormwood. Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our Enemy’s will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys. - Screwtape

I may not always know why we suffer, but I do know that it’s not because God doesn’t love us, God loved us so much that He gave his only son and in turn the son loved us so much that he gave His own life for us (The love of agape confirmed through works by the father and the son). I believe actions speak louder than words and such actions speak volumes for an all loving and merciful God. (I believe our suffering has to do with our sin and our fallen world that we live in).

You have a way of raising good points. I’m not sure about eternal life. This life here and now is too short, especially for my wife, but even if we live to be a hundred it’s still too short. But living for a million years would be ten thousand times that life span. That’s an excessively long period of time, unimaginable. What would we do after the first billion years? The first trillion? And that doesn’t even make a tiny dent in eternity. People say we would be filled with joy, and being filled with anything is OK for a while, then it gets to be a real drag!!!

So I’m not sure the theology of eternal life has been rigorously thought out. Does anyone knows of a good theological/philosophical book that explores this?

I think what your trying to imagine would be like trying to get a man born deaf to imagine what it would be like to hear, or trying to get a man born blind to imagine what it would be like to see, I believe we simply don’t have the faculties to fully appreciate what Heaven is going to be like, in other words, I believe we will never fully understand until we are on the other side. So when you suggest that we could get bored, I would say, remember that heaven, God, is outside of time, as it say’s in the Gospels, God is not slow with keeping His promises, it’s just that 1 day is like 100 years and 100 years is like 1 day for Him, in fact when it comes to our Catholic mass, it is said that we are all brought to the foot of Jesus’ cross at the instance of the crucifixion, so as the examples above, I believe we will never be able to fully appreciate or grasp the reality of heaven until we are on the other side and as has been revealed to us through Jesus, it is greater than we could ever imagine.

In fact, there are video’s on youtube of grown men and women, being born deaf, undergoing some kind of medical treatment (can’t remember what it was, kinda like a cochlear implant) being able to hear for the first time (I would love to ask one what they think it will be like hearing for the first time). Imagine their reactions, times about a thousand when it comes to the kingdom of heaven.

29 years old and hearing myself for the 1st time!
Deaf woman hears for the first time

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh