Where was God when my wife died

[lakotak]

I am sorry for your loss, I will keep you in my prayers.

So far this year, my job was abolished and I was forced to retire a year before my actual retirement date, my friend of 25 years passed away in March and last Friday, I found my roommate and friend of 30 years dead, and I am still dealing with the loss of my mother which was about five years ago.

Yes, I understand loss and grief, but I also understand that being angry at God only fuels further grief. Anger begets anger. I used to rage at God when things went wrong, but I have found it is better to just trust Him and ask for his help. We can’t understand the ways of God, He is too far above us, but we can reach out to trust Him and in trusting Him receive his grace of peace. I hope that you will reach out in trust to Him, regardless of the raging sea around you, and receive all the graces that He wants to give you for trusting Him at this moment in your journey with Him.

 

[Gorgias]

I just read Peter Kreeft’s Q&A on this. He says “Heaven is big enough so that billions of races of billions of saved people are never crowded, yet small enough so that no one gets lost or feels lonely.”

Come again?

LOL… yeah, it’s a cute line, but doesn’t do justice to the question. How about “there’s enough space for all in heaven(, and not just in a Farmeresque ‘Riverworld’ kind of way)!”

I would say what is important is that quasi-space and quasi-time would have to “feel” the same as physical space and time, otherwise the experience would be so totally alien as to brutalize our souls.

Perhaps; yet, humans are resilient creatures, if nothing else. We learn to adapt to our surroundings, regardless how ‘alien’ they feel.

If you like extreme sports, where’s the rush if you can’t get hurt? How many doctorates can you get in heavenly university before you run out of subjects and have to watch repeats of NCIS for eternity?

Interesting questions! I think, perhaps, I’d answer that, in heaven, the “daredevil desire” may be replaced with something more virtuous.

(There’s a humorous thread just started about competition sports, but if no one can ever lose in heaven, there can’t be any competition.)

I’ll have to go back over there and offer a serious comment this time. However, who says “no one can ever lose in heaven”? More to the point, it would seem that there would be a more mature approach to losing: a loss in a competitive event wouldn’t dull the enjoyment of the competition, and wouldn’t be a devastating event. One might simply acquiesce, shake hands with one’s opponent, and move on.

I can’t help feeling that any heaven in which we keep our identity has major logical fault lines, while any heaven in which we don’t (the universal consciousness type of gig) isn’t worth a visit (because if you no longer have an identify, you wouldn’t be there anyway ).

Hmm. Let’s look at those “major fault lines,” then, and see whether they’re aspects of heaven that come from God’s description or whether they’re constructions of man’s imagination. Fair enough? OK… bring 'em on! What are the ‘fault lines’?

(Time? Space? We’ve kind of talked our way through these ones. What else?)

 

[Aloysium]

I just read Peter Kreeft’s Q&A on this. He says “Heaven is big enough so that billions of races of billions of saved people are never crowded, yet small enough so that no one gets lost or feels lonely.”

Come again?

Some of his questions are good, like can we sin in heaven (or do we no longer have free will), but I could never get on with his brand of apologetics.

That’s a good point. I would say what is important is that quasi-space and quasi-time would have to “feel” the same as physical space and time, otherwise the experience would be so totally alien as to brutalize our souls.

Most people seem to view the prospect of heaven as a nicer version of what they have here, a condo overlooking the ocean, dogs never fouling the lawn, a happy hunting ground. But it seems to be an unexamined belief. If you like extreme sports, where’s the rush if you can’t get hurt? How many doctorates can you get in heavenly university before you run out of subjects and have to watch repeats of NCIS for eternity? (There’s a humorous thread just started about competition sports, but if no one can ever lose in heaven, there can’t be any competition.)

I can’t help feeling that any heaven in which we keep our identity has major logical fault lines, while any heaven in which we don’t (the universal consciousness type of gig) isn’t worth a visit (because if you no longer have an identify, you wouldn’t be there anyway ).

The way I see it:
We are made a holy unity of the spirit and of the earth. Because of sin, we return to the earth.
Before Jesus, upon our death our spirit dwelt in hell. Our being having no size, hell is big enough for billions who are probably alone in themselves.
Jesus brings the righteous to heaven, where we join with choirs of angels, rejoicing and praising God.
As you were united with your wife (It was clearly more than emotion), that subtle connection that is love, is shared among all in paradise.
Thus there is room for many, never crowded and we are never lonely.
We are there with each other, but this is not how we are meant to be. We are body and soul.
At the end of time, when all our actions have reverberated through time and a final accounting can be made, we will be resurrected, united in love.

As to what heaven is like, we have to start by not so much projecting out there, but rather focussing on what has true value, what is real here and now.
What is absolutely real is our individual existence. You will see your wife again.

 

[Memaw]

The way I see it:
We are made a holy unity of the spirit and of the earth. Because of sin, we return to the earth.
Before Jesus, upon our death our spirit dwelt in hell. Our being having no size, hell is big enough for billions who are probably alone in themselves.
Jesus brings the righteous to heaven, where we join with choirs of angels, rejoicing and praising God.
As you were united with your wife (It was clearly more than emotion), that subtle connection that is love, is shared among all in paradise.
Thus there is room for many, never crowded and we are never lonely.
We are there with each other, but this is not how we are meant to be. We are body and soul.
At the end of time, when all our actions have reverberated through time and a final accounting can be made, we will be resurrected, united in love.

As to what heaven is like, we have to start by not so much projecting out there, but rather focussing on what has true value, what is real here and now.
What is absolutely real is our individual existence. You will see your wife again.

Funny how we like to believe things as we want them to be and not as God designed them. First of all, Heaven will not be a big adjustment for us, we were meant for Heaven from the beginning and if Adam and Eve had NOT sinned, we would have gone there body and soul together when God willed it. We will rejoice when we reach Heaven. Believe God, there is plenty of room for all and no one will be sad, bored, lost, lonely or any other earthly emotion. They are the result of Original Sin. Joy, Love, Happiness and freedom from sin and its effects are all part of Heaven. As St. Paul tells us, “Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has it even entered into the mind of man what GOD has in store for us.” So don’t sweat it, TRUST GOD. After all HE is in charge.
Another thing. the spirit of everyone that died before Jesus, did NOT go to hell, only those destined for Hell forever! Everyone else went to Abraham’s Bosom to await the redemption of Our Lord’s death. Even St. Joseph was there. NOT in Hell.
We will all be reunited with our loved ones in Heaven so it is well worth striving for. As Patrick Coffin always says, "Be a Saint!! What else is there? God Bless, Memaw

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Another thing. the spirit of everyone that died before Jesus, did NOT go to hell, only those destined for Hell forever! Everyone else went to Abraham’s Bosom to await the redemption of Our Lord’s death. Even St. Joseph was there. NOT in Hell. . . .

Thanks for your post, feedback and clarification.
I actually thought about of the word “hell” and decided it to be appropriate in keeping with its use in the Creed.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm
Hell refers to a state of imprisonment where “those who are there are deprived of the vision of God”.
I wondered above whether their experience was solitary - clearly not according to the Church. Those in Abraham’s bosom, were not alone and were waiting for Jesus.

 

[inocente]

I’ll have to go back over there and offer a serious comment this time. However, who says “no one can ever lose in heaven”? More to the point, it would seem that there would be a more mature approach to losing: a loss in a competitive event wouldn’t dull the enjoyment of the competition, and wouldn’t be a devastating event. One might simply acquiesce, shake hands with one’s opponent, and move on.

The question would be why compete? The desire to win entails others losing, it entails wanting to be better than the other guy. Is that appropriate decorum in heaven?

Heaven as vacation spot raises all kinds of issues. Would anyone really want to play 170 trillion games of anything? Can we take part in extreme boxing? Does that mean we can feel pain and get knocked out (because otherwise what would be the point of such pursuits)? Can we follow other pastimes? Is a pastime heavenly or just passing time? Can we go to heavenly university to study political philosophy? If heaven to us is being a politician, then can we do that, is heaven a democracy?

Or are politicians automatically banned from heaven?

Hmm. Let’s look at those “major fault lines,” then, and see whether they’re aspects of heaven that come from God’s description or whether they’re constructions of man’s imagination. Fair enough? OK… bring 'em on! What are the ‘fault lines’?

(Time? Space? We’ve kind of talked our way through these ones. What else?)

So, from the above, I think heaven can’t be just a nicer version of our current life, that would just be too trivial.

A whole bunch of issues disappear if heaven is less trivial, as I think we all know it must be. But then we get to a bit of a humdinger. I’ll rattle on for a bit about this one, maybe it deserves a thread.

What is trivial, what gets taken away? In philosophical terms, what is it about you that is essential to your identity and what is merely incidental? What must persist in your personal identity?

The question has, I think, three parts. First, consider arriving in heaven. What about you arrives if you died with dementia? Or if you died as an infant? Or if you died insane after going through hell on earth on a battlefield? In other words, what is the essence of your personal identity that is there from the beginning (when you are conceived?) and remains no matter how long you live and no matter how you die? Because, presumably, that is what gives you your unique identity, that is what God must preserve for you to live forever.

The second is what persists when you are in heaven. The incidentals about you don’t matter, they can be stripped away, you are still you even though you put away childish things. But take away any of the essentials and you are no longer you. There might still be a person but that person is no longer you. So what is essential to your identity that would still remain unchanged after a million, trillion, gazillion years have passed? And if none of you as you are now would remain, if what then exists is a person but that person is no longer you, then you don’t actually live forever.

The third is simply that if heaven is otherwise ordered, such that you don’t experience any passage of time or of change, if there is no narrative, then it’s hard to see how what remains of you could be more than an eternal photograph over God’s fireplace, which sounds nice but it’s not living and it’s not you, it’s just a dead likeness.

 

[inocente]

I am sorry for your loss, I will keep you in my prayers.

So far this year, my job was abolished and I was forced to retire a year before my actual retirement date, my friend of 25 years passed away in March and last Friday, I found my roommate and friend of 30 years dead, and I am still dealing with the loss of my mother which was about five years ago.

Yes, I understand loss and grief, but I also understand that being angry at God only fuels further grief. Anger begets anger. I used to rage at God when things went wrong, but I have found it is better to just trust Him and ask for his help. We can’t understand the ways of God, He is too far above us, but we can reach out to trust Him and in trusting Him receive his grace of peace. I hope that you will reach out in trust to Him, regardless of the raging sea around you, and receive all the graces that He wants to give you for trusting Him at this moment in your journey with Him.

Oh I feel for you. My sister lost someone who had been a friend since school, who was family to her, and it hit her very hard. I agree that being angry doesn’t help. My wife was stoical, and stoicism isn’t just acceptance, it’s seems to be a rather beautiful philosophy which starts by declaring that no knowledge preexists, that all knowledge must be experienced, and argues from there that we can only live in truth if our thoughts correspond with reality, and so the parts of our soul must be harmonious.

Was Mary a stoic? “Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.”

The thought needed an anthem. Let’s sing it out together.

And when the broken hearted people
Living in the world agree
There will be an answer, let it be
For though they may be parted
There is still a chance that they will see
There will be an answer, let it be
youtube.com/watch?v=u6T5C-jzSH0

 

[lakotak]

Oh I feel for you. My sister lost someone who had been a friend since school, who was family to her, and it hit her very hard. I agree that being angry doesn’t help. My wife was stoical, and stoicism isn’t just acceptance,** it’s seems to be a rather beautiful philosophy which starts by declaring that no knowledge preexists, that all knowledge must be experienced,** and argues from there that we can only live in truth if our thoughts correspond with reality, and so the parts of our soul must be harmonious.

Was Mary a stoic? “Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.”

The thought needed an anthem. Let’s sing it out together.

And when the broken hearted people
Living in the world agree
There will be an answer, let it be
For though they may be parted
There is still a chance that they will see
There will be an answer, let it be
youtube.com/watch?v=u6T5C-jzSH0

All knowledge does pre exist with God in the “Eternal Now”. Every moment that we experience here on earth is present to God now, though we have yet to experience the thoughts, deeds or actions. All knowledge of our thoughts, actions, deeds from our past, in our present and will happen in our future is before Him now. We have to experience all that he already knows about us at once, we have to experience it in the time that he established for us, then it becomes our knowledge. God already knows that we are going to have a car accident two weeks from now, but be have to allow the time of two weeks to go by before we experience it.

I also forgot to mention that a year after my mother died, my sister was diagnosed with lymphoma.

 

[inocente]

Before Jesus, upon our death our spirit dwelt in hell.

I looked it up and think that’s correct but it’s not the common usage of the word. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, one of four meanings of hell is “the limbo of the Fathers (limbus patrum), in which the souls of the just who died before Christ awaited their admission to heaven; for in the meantime heaven was closed against them in punishment for the sin of Adam”.

As to what heaven is like, we have to start by not so much projecting out there, but rather focussing on what has true value, what is real here and now.
What is absolutely real is our individual existence. You will see your wife again.

Agreed, and I made an excessively long post (#86) today about wondering what has true value, but maybe coming at it from a different angle, please comment it you have a view.

 

[inocente]

All knowledge does pre exist with God in the “Eternal Now”.

But we are not God.

I also forgot to mention that a year after my mother died, my sister was diagnosed with lymphoma.

How is she? I don’t know much about it except that it can often now be cured.

(And those treatments are due to medical science, and came about through empiricism, which is concerned with gaining knowledge through experience, so don’t think too badly of the stoics ).

 

[SAVINGRACE]

First of all please accept my sincere condolences for the passing away of your wife. I have no doubt that God was with you and your wife when she passed away. He hears every human heart filled with grief.

My view of death is slightly different.

In my culture we are taught from a very young age not to fear or flee death, that it is a normal part of the cycle of life. I remember my first funeral as a 4yo sitting near my uncle’s casket for two days while people filed past to pay their last respects. I had seen many dead bodies and attended countless funerals by the time I was 10 I had already accepted that death was a normal part of life, I appreciated my loved ones more.

When I converted I realised that were similarities between what the CC teaches about the afterlife and what the traditions of my culture taught. The CC teaches that we are in a fallen state and that is why death and disease visit us. Also, suffering binds us closer to Christ on the cross. We enthusiastically participate in the blessings of his Resurrection but we are reluctant to participate in his Suffering.

Our physical bodies and souls are not in the state that God intended, we are lost and always seeking to find our way home.

 

[lakotak]

But we are not God.

How is she? I don’t know much about it except that it can often now be cured.

(And those treatments are due to medical science, and came about through empiricism, which is concerned with gaining knowledge through experience, so don’t think too badly of the stoics ).

All knowledge that could ever exist, exists with God. We only experience it in time.

All the knowledge of science exists with God. Man is only discovering what there is to be discovered through God in His time.

My sister is status quo at the moment. To my knowledge, at this point in time, MALT lymphoma cannot be cured, only treated. Thanks for asking.

 

[tonyrey]

First of all please accept my sincere condolences for the passing away of your wife. I have no doubt that God was with you and your wife when she passed away. He hears every human heart filled with grief.

My view of death is slightly different.

In my culture we are taught from a very young age not to fear or flee death, that it is a normal part of the cycle of life. I remember my first funeral as a 4yo sitting near my uncle’s casket for two days while people filed past to pay their last respects. I had seen many dead bodies and attended countless funerals by the time I was 10 I had already accepted that death was a normal part of life, I appreciated my loved ones more.

When I converted I realised that were similarities between what the CC teaches about the afterlife and what the traditions of my culture taught. The CC teaches that we are in a fallen state and that is why death and disease visit us. Also, suffering binds us closer to Christ on the cross. We enthusiastically participate in the blessings of his Resurrection but we are reluctant to participate in his Suffering.

Our physical bodies and souls are not in the state that God intended, we are lost and always seeking to find our way home.

A superb post!

 

[Faith1960]

Innocent, I’m so sorry for your loss.

 

[inocente]

First of all please accept my sincere condolences for the passing away of your wife. I have no doubt that God was with you and your wife when she passed away. He hears every human heart filled with grief.

My view of death is slightly different.

In my culture we are taught from a very young age not to fear or flee death, that it is a normal part of the cycle of life. I remember my first funeral as a 4yo sitting near my uncle’s casket for two days while people filed past to pay their last respects. I had seen many dead bodies and attended countless funerals by the time I was 10 I had already accepted that death was a normal part of life, I appreciated my loved ones more.

When I converted I realised that were similarities between what the CC teaches about the afterlife and what the traditions of my culture taught. The CC teaches that we are in a fallen state and that is why death and disease visit us. Also, suffering binds us closer to Christ on the cross. We enthusiastically participate in the blessings of his Resurrection but we are reluctant to participate in his Suffering.

Our physical bodies and souls are not in the state that God intended, we are lost and always seeking to find our way home.

Thank you for your condolences. Yes, different cultures treat death differently. Tolstoy’s Ivan Ilyitch hides from death all his life until he has to face it on his deathbed, and screams for days in sudden terror, until finally coming to peace at the moment of death. Very gothic horror.

I think life does fool us into a complacency. A book I read a long time back has stayed with me:

“Death is always on the way, but the fact that you don’t know when it will arrive seems to take away from the finiteness of life. It’s that terrible precision that we hate so much. But because we don’t know, we get to think of life as an inexhaustible well. Yet everything happens a certain number of times, and a very small number, really. How many more times will you remember a certain afternoon of your childhood, some afternoon that’s so deeply a part of your being that you can’t even conceive of your life without it? Perhaps four or five times more. Perhaps not even. How many more times will you watch the full moon rise? Perhaps twenty. And yet it all seems limitless.” - Paul Bowles, The Sheltering Sky

 

[inocente]

My sister is status quo at the moment. To my knowledge, at this point in time, MALT lymphoma cannot be cured, only treated. Thanks for asking.

I hope she is one of the many cases that can still be successfully treated long term.

 

[inocente]

Innocent, I’m so sorry for your loss.

Thank you, that was very kind.

 

[lakotak]

I hope she is one of the many cases that can still be successfully treated long term.

Yes, this is the best that we can hope for. Thank you.

 

[Memaw]

First of all please accept my sincere condolences for the passing away of your wife. I have no doubt that God was with you and your wife when she passed away. He hears every human heart filled with grief.

My view of death is slightly different.

In my culture we are taught from a very young age not to fear or flee death, that it is a normal part of the cycle of life. I remember my first funeral as a 4yo sitting near my uncle’s casket for two days while people filed past to pay their last respects. I had seen many dead bodies and attended countless funerals by the time I was 10 I had already accepted that death was a normal part of life, I appreciated my loved ones more.

When I converted I realised that were similarities between what the CC teaches about the afterlife and what the traditions of my culture taught. The CC teaches that we are in a fallen state and that is why death and disease visit us. Also, suffering binds us closer to Christ on the cross. We enthusiastically participate in the blessings of his Resurrection but we are reluctant to participate in his Suffering.

Our physical bodies and souls are not in the state that God intended, we are lost and always seeking to find our way home.

AMEN!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[ShelleyScribe]

A lot of suffering is caused by the way man lives his life and not by God. It started wit Adam when he disobeyed and man lost the way of life that God gave. God gave Us a free will to live according to the Commandments but we don’t. Third world people are dying of hunger because of corruption in politicians in their countries. 80 per cent hungry while 20 per cent own 80 per cent of the wealth. Lazy people claiming benefits and not working are stealing from those who can’t work. Murderers, rapists, aggressive bullies, abortionists, are all creating serious suffering for others as well as drug dealers etc. Those who damage the environment are indirectly causing a health hazard for everyone - the level of that we don’t know because of chemicals and unseen damage to water and air and something in this area or in our food could be causing cancer. Greed and avarice and selfishness is what causes suffering but we were given free will and God can’t take away that. We all have to die and that causes suffering for those left, even if we die at 150 in our sleep but it helps if we realise that this life is only a passing through to the greatest happiness where suffering is no more.