Which church is God's true church? Is it the Roman Catholic Church?

[Peter_J]

The words of Jesus I quote.
“Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me.And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me”

Many times in the bible it says, if we believe in Christ, repent of our sins, get baptised, that we shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit i.e Acts 2:38.

I does no good to just pick out the part of the bible that you like and disregard the rest.

The bible, properly understood, does not support individualism.

Thus I would say to the person who started this thread, don’t hold so tightly to the fact that the catholic church is the only true church, with humility and awe dare to open up to the scriptures and the expanse of our God, that whoever believes in Him, when they meet with others, they are the true church. Tracing back to when the church begun and saying that’s the only true one, is reverting back to human reasoning and its too limiting to be of God.

I don’t want to get into an argument with you about the distinction between holding too tightly and holding just tightly enough. Rather I want to point out that the don’t hold too tightly advice should apply to you just as much as it does to us. Do you hold so tightly to your belief that “whoever believes in Him, when they meet with others, they are the true church” that you are unwilling to ever consider the views of others – specifically those of us who believe that the “denomination” which we belong to is in fact the one true church?

 

[jam070406]

Many times in the bible it says, if we believe in Christ, repent of our sins, get baptised, that we shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit i.e Acts 2:38. So, whoever has the Holy Spirit living in them is the true temple ie 1 Corinthians 6:19 “Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you…” Thus the “true” church comes about when believers who are the temple of God gather and meet i.e Ephesians 2:2.

And a warning, the Pharisees in Jesus’ time thought they had it all together, that they were following the true law of God…but Jesus was continually correcting them, for they didn’t have eyes to see the bigger picture of God and how He works i.e.They hassled Jesus for healing on the Sabbath and Jesus corrected their outlook.

Thus I would say to the person who started this thread, don’t hold so tightly to the fact that the catholic church is the only true church, with humility and awe dare to open up to the scriptures and the expanse of our God, that whoever believes in Him, when they meet with others, they are the true church. Tracing back to when the church begun and saying that’s the only true one, is reverting back to human reasoning and its too limiting to be of God.

And last one, as I recall all throughout the new testament Paul is correcting the churches for this and for that i.e for returning back to good works to earn salvation/forgiveness of sins, so who is to say that just because the cathloic church traces back to the original churches of the new testament, that they have it all together and are true and correct?

I believe, that none of us, whatever denomination have it “altogether”, but that we do have insights into truth and gifts of the Spirit and we should work together as the body of Christ to save souls, its only Satan and his influence that has us doing otherwise.

The Catholic Church is not just another denomination. It is the Church Jesus Christ Himself established. We have Faith in Christ’s promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against it. THIS is what gives us the confidence that the Church is spotless in it’s teachings. Other denominations are man made. It has been Satan’s influence that tells us anything other than that true Christian unity only exists in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[MDK]

If only it were that simple. But the church hasn’t always stayed faithful to Jesus’ original teachings. and especially today believers warp his words to justify their own greed.

It is that simple. And, once again, you’re wrong! The Church teachings have always remained faithful. It’s members naturally have their own free will and do sin. That’s why Christ established forgiveness via the Apostles, and their successors.

 

[MDK]

That’s the way science works. Always ready, even eager, to give up a hypothesis if testing shows it to be false and then redesign the hypothesis and test again, and so on until replication shows a true hypothesis and then incorporate it into a theory and continue testing.

I am an applied scientist, and know how science works, and understand hypothesis testing, and theory. Are you a scientist as well? I think you’ve been indoctrinated by this in grade school and high school. You display a certain indoctrinated naivete regarding this topic. What is often happening in the field of evolution, is not so much following of scientific method. There is a lot of false claims and stretching beyond what is actually science, into the realm of hope and wishes. These attempts are much more about establishing atheism and “debunking” creationism. The pope and Magisterium have never, ever said that creationism is not true. Creationism is indeed true. This is what I’m concerned with in the field of evolutionary studies and claims. If it did follow solid scientific method, and remained faithful to the Church’s teaching, things would be fine.

I recommend staying with the Church’s teaching regarding this, and every topic.

That’s what we’re discussing here on this board is which is the true Church. For comparison, the Fundamentalist teaching botches both Scriptural and Scientific understandings. The Catholic Church teaches infallibly on faith and morals, and is concerned with science as it relates to the teachings of faith and morals.

 

[MDK]

You hit the nail on the head when you said “NO CHURCH IS THE TRUE CHURCH”

Once again you misquote and misunderstand. The statement didn’t say that.

The bull’s eye is what we’ve been telling you and others. If you don’t want to believe it, then that’s your prerogative. However, it doesn’t bode well for one to be told the truth about Christ and His Church and for that one to reject this. It probably would have been better for you to never have been exposed to the truth at all, than to be exposed to the truth and reject the truth about Christ and His Church.

 

[MDK]

I can’t bring myself to join a church because church seems so immature to in my view. It seems as useless and pompous as nationalism.

It seems reasonable to see this as a projection onto the Church, of what you see in yourself.

I hope someday you come to realize how far from the truth your statement is. This kind of thinking seems akin to teenagers who think they know it all. I hope you grow toward the truth, instead of further away from it. You seem to have an unhealthy dose of do-it-yourself salvation.

 

[Namesake]

I think you’ve been indoctrinated by this in grade school and high school.

Actually the indoctrination happened in grad school, not grade school, but you were close. Just one letter too many.

You sure are willing to make an assumption based on nothing and then lecture using the false assumption.

 

[vineyardgirl]

I does no good to just pick out the part of the bible that you like and disregard the rest.

The bible, properly understood, does not support individualism.

I don’t want to get into an argument with you about the distinction between holding too tightly and holding just tightly enough. Rather I want to point out that the don’t hold too tightly advice should apply to you just as much as it does to us. Do you hold so tightly to your belief that “whoever believes in Him, when they meet with others, they are the true church” that you are unwilling to ever consider the views of others – specifically those of us who believe that the “denomination” which we belong to is in fact the one true church?

Just quickly, as I typed up a whole reply earlier and my internet went down and I’m exhausted from working shift hours as a nurse!

I agree you can’t pick verses out of the bible, that you have to read them in context and I believe that the verse I quoted wasn’t taken out of context and that its found many times throughout the New Testament (sorry no references to back this up atm, so I’ll need you to be gracious with me and look them up for yourself if you wish), supporting the fact that as believers in Christ we have the Holy Spirit in us and thus are the temple of God.

I also agree that the bible doesn’t support individualism, I have no problem with that, I even said that it is when believers meet together that this is considered to be the biblically true church.

And you’re also right in the fact that we should learn from each other, I don’t hold so tightly to my beliefs myself, but just tightly enough, like you said, for I know the bible also talks about not being too sure about things, least we should fall and that it also says however, not to be tossed to and fro like on waves and not to be double minded (sorry, grace needed again here for my tiredness and thus no references to back it up with!) but I also think that when we can’t agree, that we should atleast be respectful to each other and I think thats going on here, so I’m fine with all of that.

I’m just putting forth my opinions hey, trying to be encouraging in a challenging sort of way, thats all.

And last one, what do you think of the verse in Matthew, where it says, if two or three are gathered in His name, that He (Jesus) is amongst them? For I think that as believers who have the Holy Spirit in them and who are called the temple of God, as it says in the bible, that when they meet together to worship God, to prayer, to fellowship, to minister etc with Jesus amongst their midst, how can this not be considered the “true” church, to me, its back to basics, its the most purest and simplistic form of the church that you could find. Hence, I believe that both catholics and protestants who are true believers, who gather together to worship, prayer, minister etc are all the “true church.”

I further understand that historically and through the laying of the hands that the Catholic church may be called the true one, form that point of view. And at the same time, I believe the true church to be what I’ve started it to be…perhaps we are both coming from a different point of view on the words true church, if anything?

So, may I ask, whats your understanding on the words true church??

Ta, and thanks for your patience with my not so precise post due to my lack of sleep! Vineyardgirl

 

[Peter_J]

We are not trying to give each other the same thing. Nothing could be further from the truth. One denies the Church and the other defends it.

So do believe that Hobble knows what he telling you if false, and is telling it to you anyway?

Or would you admit the possibility that he is trying to give you the truth, but not succeeding?

 

[Joysong]

Vineyardgirl,

You have a beautiful understanding of what we Catholics call “The Mystical Body of Christ” – and it is THIS that you correctly perceive as being the Temple of the Holy Spirit, since we are all indwelt by Him through our baptism and our following of God’s commandments. The best example I can think of is the story of Cornelius in Acts 10. He and his household had received the Spirit even before their official baptism, which helped St. Peter to stand up and take notice and baptize them!

Many belong to the Mystical Body, while not yet belonging officially to the one Church Jesus established, yet these are part of it through their baptism, albeit not in fullness since other “churches” do not have the sacraments and the promise of infallilble guidance into Truth.

I remember Jesus’s words to the woman at the well, affirming to her that the Lord desires worshippers in Spirit and in Truth. Membership in a particular church [including my own Catholic Church] is not a guarantee of that purity of heart so greatly desired by God in His believers. Today’s reading at our liturgy was from Micah, and speaks so eloquently about this:

With what shall I come before the LORD,
and bow before God most high?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?
Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
with myriad streams of oil?
Shall I give my first-born for my crime,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
You have been told, O man, what is good,
and what the LORD requires of you:
Only to do the right and to love goodness,
and to walk humbly with your God.

Of course, this minimally describes the attitude that is so fundamental to worship, rather than to follow one’s own will after leaving the church, expecting that ‘burnt offerings’ are going to be sufficient.

 

[Peter_J]

Just quickly, as I typed up a whole reply earlier and my internet went down and I’m exhausted from working shift hours as a nurse!

I agree you can’t pick verses out of the bible, that you have to read them in context and I believe that the verse I quoted wasn’t taken out of context and that its found many times throughout the New Testament (sorry no references to back this up atm, so I’ll need you to be gracious with me and look them up for yourself if you wish), supporting the fact that as believers in Christ we have the Holy Spirit in us and thus are the temple of God.

I had a feeling you might say that.

I also agree that the bible doesn’t support individualism, I have no problem with that, I even said that it is when believers meet together that this is considered to be the biblically true church.

…

And last one, what do you think of the verse in Matthew, where it says, if two or three are gathered in His name, that He (Jesus) is amongst them? For I think that as believers who have the Holy Spirit in them and who are called the temple of God, as it says in the bible, that when they meet together to worship God, to prayer, to fellowship, to minister etc with Jesus amongst their midst, how can this not be considered the “true” church, to me, its back to basics, its the most purest and simplistic form of the church that you could find. Hence, I believe that both catholics and protestants who are true believers, who gather together to worship, prayer, minister etc are all the “true church.”

I further understand that historically and through the laying of the hands that the Catholic church may be called the true one, form that point of view. And at the same time, I believe the true church to be what I’ve started it to be…perhaps we are both coming from a different point of view on the words true church, if anything?

So, may I ask, whats your understanding on the words true church??

Ta, and thanks for your patience with my not so precise post due to my lack of sleep! Vineyardgirl

“Where two or three gather in my name, there am I in there midst” is an important passage, but we also need to consider passages about e.g. the importance of holding to true doctrine.

I think that the only way we could get very far on this is if we spend considerably more-hours-than-I-want-to discussing all the relevant passages. (BTW, I’m actually more interested in dialogue among liturgical/traditional Christian – Catholic, Orthodox, high-church Anglicans, and conservative Lutherans (sometimes referred to collectively as “catholics” with a small-c) – than dialogue between liturgical/traditional Christians and Evangelicals.)

And you’re also right in the fact that we should learn from each other, I don’t hold so tightly to my beliefs myself, but just tightly enough, like you said,

I’m glad to hear that. I think there’s a lot “ecumenical chauvinism” out there – by which I mean, among other things, Christians who are always talking about tolerance for differing believes, but who have absolutely no tolerance for anyone (e.g. Catholics) who dares to call themselves the one true church.

 

[Peter_J]

Joysong,

I just noticed your post.

Well said!

 

[AlegreFe]

… just because the cathloic church traces back to the original churches of the new testament, that they have it all together and are true and correct?

If you believe that the Catholic Church could possibly be the one traced back to the original church of the New Testament then you would realize that Jesus said that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. If you believe Jesus then you would know that no matter what happens in the Catholic Church nothing can truly “corrupt” her. I hear many non-Catholics say that the Catholic Church was corrupted at one point. It sounds like many of them even say it as if they realize that the Catholic Church was once the true Church of God but then something horrible happened to corrupt it. What kind of nonsense is that? You know what Jesus said about HIS Church.

I believe, that none of us, whatever denomination have it “altogether”, but that we do have insights into truth and gifts of the Spirit and we should work together as the body of Christ to save souls, its only Satan and his influence that has us doing otherwise.

This is true if you only talk about the people and not the Catholic Church as established by Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church is Holy as she is the Bride of Christ. But the people IN the Church are not holy, … yet. We are all called to be holy. But none of us have reached that mark yet. We can be sanctified at different times in our lives if we Catholics go to Confession and partake of Jesus in the Eucharist on a regular basis. But the sanctification we like to call “state of grace” might not last that long. So we have to go to Confession so that we can start clean,… sort of like being “born again” so that we can be put on the path to holiness.

 

[AlegreFe]

– specifically those of us who believe that the “denomination” which we belong to is in fact the one true church?

We are not a denomination. :nope:

 

[AlegreFe]

Hobble:

I can’t bring myself to join a church because church seems so immature to in my view. It seems as useless and pompous as nationalism.

It seems reasonable to see this as a projection onto the Church, of what you see in yourself.

I think you mean a projection of what he is; because that’s just it, he doesn’t see this in himself. It’s that proverbial log in his eye. Every time I read one of his posts I see pride. And we all know what pride does. He’s blinded.

I hope someday you come to realize how far from the truth your statement is. This kind of thinking seems akin to teenagers who think they know it all. I hope you grow toward the truth, instead of further away from it. You seem to have an unhealthy dose of do-it-yourself salvation.

Oh my, this is what I was thinking of Hobble.

We all need to pray for him. That is what Jesus wants, for us to pray for him. Jesus is thirsty for the salvation of all of us, including Hobble.

 

[Hobble]

Oh brother…

 

[cazayoux]

I actually reject the notion that Jesus came to start a “chruch” in the institutional sense of the word.

Help me to understand what you mean by ‘institutional’?
Did the community that Jesus start have bishops?

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Faith or church? The complexity of the church destroys faith. Faith doesn’t depend on church. That’s my point. If God is so loving He wouldn’t make coming to Him dependent on middlemen **like priests and bishops **and such.

The Apostles were bishops.
Judas was gone, but his office remained.
What was that complex, faith-destroying, non-faith-depending, middleman ‘position’ called?

Acts 1:20
[20] For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his ***bishopric ***let another take.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

He was quite correct. Homo Neanderthalis (and Homo Erectus) probably were the hominids just before ( a couple of million years ago) Homo sapiens.

It might be more correct to say that modern day humans and neandertals have a common ancestor since the two co-existed.

“During the late Pleistocene, early anatomically modern humans coexisted in Europe with the anatomically archaic Neandertals for some thousand years” Click for reference to article “Evidence for a genetic discontinuity between Neandertals and 24,000-year-old anatomically modern Europeans”

michel

 

[Roamin_Xian]

Which Church is the “truest”?

None.

The original message of Christ was so perverted in the first few hundred years that the Humble Galilean preaching social justice and a universal faith was converted into a War Chief approving of crusades.

And, of course, vast majority of these Protestant groups haven’t done any better to perfect that message.