Which dogmas do we have that with certainty excludes universalism?

[MarkRome]

The feeling of hope, yes, but prayers for salvation will not be needed for the saved or damned (as there is an immediate judgment). Prayers for the saved for the remission of temporal punishment in purgatory are useful.

God is not bound by time. Prayers for an individual’s salvation even after that person has died can be efficacious.

 

[Niblo]

Excellent. Then you and Rābiʿa al-ʿAdawiyya al-Qaysiyya (and I) are of one mind.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

The feeling of hope, yes, but prayers for salvation will not be needed for the saved or damned (as there is an immediate judgment). Prayers for the saved for the remission of temporal punishment in purgatory are useful.

God is not bound by time. Prayers for an individual’s salvation even after that person has died can be efficacious.

It will be efficacious, in the sense of salvation, only for those that choose to cooperate with grace. God gives sufficient graces to all.

 

[Montrose]

I quote from The Catechetical Instructions of St Thomas Aquinas:

“Christ excelled the Blessed Virgin in this, that He was conceived and born without original sin, while the Blessed Virgin was conceived in original sin but was not born in it”.

The point I am making is that you keep pointing to views of Church Fathers as if they are Church teachings to back your claim about Judas while I am pointing out they are not Church teachings. They are simply opinions which can be wrong.
Such views in addition to opinions of any theologians, private revelations of saints, private interpretation of Scripture are not Church teachings.
The Church has never in the past nor will it going forward teach that any specific individual is in Hell because it does not know. Only God knows the state of a person’s soul at death.

What the Church does teach infallibly is that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell.
No human knows the state of anyone’s soul when they die. We can speculate and have opinions but we do not and can not know.

 

[Montrose]

Are you deliberately missing the point. It does not matter if he changed his position, the point is that the views of individual Church Fathers are NOT Church teachings. They are opinions.

 

[Rubee]

Are you deliberately missing the point. It does not matter if he changed his position, the point is that the views of individual Church Fathers are NOT Church teachings. They are opinions.

Only the Magisterium teaching through the means defined by the church as infallible is infallible.

 

[MarkRome]

Because God knows our prayers before we pray them. If we pray for someone while they are living and those prayers are efficacious (the prayers of a righteous man avails much) then he can also apply the prayers from the future (that he already knows we will pray) to that same individual while they are alive.

 

[Rubee]

Also, God transcends time and space, which are both his creations, per church teaching, so he necessarily accesses all time and space in the same eternal NOW.

 

[MarkRome]

It will be efficacious, in the sense of salvation, only for those that choose to cooperate with grace. God gives sufficient graces to all.

God never contravenes free will. But the prayers of a righteous man avails much.

 

[Montrose]

It is irrelevant if they agree. The Church does NOT teach that Judas is in Hell. It does NOT make declarations/pronouncements on any individual being in Hell.

 

[Rubee]

So you should stop proudly declaring that Pope John Paul II’s teaching is wrong. I’m glad we agree on this.

 

[Rubee]

The church has never taught that, you have quotes from a few saints. The church teaches that she does not declare anyone to be in hell. You are contradicting her.

 

[Gorgias]

Such as?

And, even if I classify, does that imply that persons are present in each classification?

Not “are”, though…

If universalism were true, what would it mean for you?

‘Universalism’ means “God just throws up his hands and says, ‘meh, you’re all in!’, without any kind of judgment as such.” Is that the ‘universalism’ you’re talking about?

Because if so, then that means exactly what you ask – what’s the point of all of this, then? All the suffering? All the pain? It would feel like being made to run the gauntlet just so that you get to a finish line that you could have just gone directly to, anyway. (After all, the atheists have a valid point, if universalism were true.). The only possible answer is “God wants us to run this gauntlet”, and that makes Him seem cruel.

If, on the other hand, we know that each person is judged on his or her life, and if we can hope that each will be judged and will attain to heaven (which is not what universalism claims, as such), then that’s a different story. Then our earthly lives do matter.

I don’t recall that line in the liturgy. Could you quote it, please, or at least identify where in the liturgy you believe it to be found? (Or, have you corrected yourself downthread and noted the collect from the 1966 Mass for Holy Thursday?)

 

[Gorgias]

But they don’t say that it’s happened. It’s a heuristic – a definition of process, if you will – and not the slam-dunk that some here are making it out to be.

None of the things you’ve mentioned rise to that level of “definitive statement”, as you claim they do. (I’ll withhold judgment, of course, until I see your citation from the Good Friday liturgy.)

My Missal has this collect for the Mass of the Lord’s Supper:
“O God, who have called us to participate in this most sacred Supper…”. Nothing about Judas or the good thief.

I had to go back to a 1966 edition of the Missal to find “O God, who punished Judas for his crime…”.

Notice that it doesn’t say that. You’re reading it into the text.

You’ve already tried that move, haven’t you? Do you have a different quote than the one you attempted to use as ‘proof’?

Good to know that you’re the arbiter of all truth.

Montrose:

You couldn’t care less that Pope John Paul II states the Church has never pronounced that any particular individual is in Hell??
What arrogance.

Saint Pope John Paul II, to boot…

Right. Apparently, some come from your lips.

[The Church] does teach that hell exists and those that died in mortal sin are there

Wrong tense, and tense is critical here. The Church teaches that “those who die in mortal sin…”, not “those who died in mortal sin”. The latter – the grammar of your presentation of the teaching – implies that this has already happened. The former – the grammar of the Church’s teaching – doesn’t imply that it has happened, but that this is how it works, as such, and not that it has or hasn’t happened.

The “ordinary magisterium” means “that which has been taught by the Church in all times and all places”. If the Church doesn’t teach it today, then it’s not part of the ordinary magisterium. (Nice try, though!)

 

[MarkRome]

Catechisms aren’t infallible church teachings. But you know that.

 

[Rubee]

If, on the other hand, we know that each person is judged on his or her life, and if we can hope that each will be judged and will attain to heaven (which is not what universalism claims, as such), then that’s a different story. Then our earthly lives do matter.

I do not believe that our actions have no consequence, no. People believe that belief that everyone might/will be saved will cause faith to die, but seeing members of the faiths that teach this in some way, I do not see it.

Muslims believe Muslims are all going to heaven, for example, but not right away: That is, every single evil act they do will be paid for here or in the next life and every single good deed will be rewarded here or in the next life. Yet they seem far more serious about following their religion than Christians theirs. Eastern faiths, too, do not have equivalents of hell and they have their adherents. I do not believe that it would have the consequences people fear.

But no, I do not believe in that pseudo-protestant “Just get saved by a single prayer” or some Calvinistic salvation by declaration. I just believe grace is such that even the hardest sinner probably gets to the faith that leads to salvation.

To me, not only does it not mean that earthly choices are meaningless, but that there’s a real possibility that they will all be righted with true reconciliation amongst humans as well. That everyone, including Hitler, will eventually realize, repent of, and make penance for every bad thing, small or great, they did to their fellow man on earth throughout their lives. Something very satisfyingly just about that.

 

[Gorgias]

So, here’s the problem: it’s in an old liturgy no longer in use. If “lex orandi, lex credendi” holds, then you have to admit that the Church no longer prays this. Therefore, it no longer professes this as belief. Therefore, it’s not part of the ordinary magisterium.

Further, your quote from Trent claims only that Judas is damned because he committed suicide. The Church has refined that teaching, as well – no longer does she teach that all suicides are condemned to eternal damnation. Rather, all we know is that the suicide attempt was successful; since we don’t know whether, after committing themselves to that course of action, they repented and asked for God’s mercy, we therefore do not know that they are condemned. So… there goes your Trent citation, too!

Try again, perhaps?

 

[Gorgias]

Ahh! Perfect! So, then: they pray it in Latin, and in Latin (as has been pointed out to you upthread) it reads punishment, not condemnation. Therefore… it doesn’t say what you interpret it to mean.

 

[Gorgias]

Wow. Now you’re even misquoting yourself!!!

Let’s look again at the quote you presented:

Let’s read carefully, shall we?

• Judas was repenting. (Repentance brings forgiveness, right?)
• Judas hung himself (and they presume that means ‘condemnation’).

But, the Church no longer teaches that every suicide leads to damnation. So… maybe you should try again?

 

[Rubee]

Which you do not know.