Which dogmas do we have that with certainty excludes universalism?

[Gorgias]

They don’t, though. We’ve been able to pick apart every assertion you’ve made and demonstrate that they don’t prove what you think they prove.

No, they are. They’re your interpretations of what these sources say.

Let me fix that for you, please:

What is (name removed by moderator) interpretation of the catechism of Trent?

What is (name removed by moderator) interpretation of what it was for the 500 years prior to the 92 Catechism?

What are (name removed by moderator) interpretations of* encyclicals?

Why does (name removed by moderator) listen to his interpretation of the interpretation of doctors and the church fathers?

There we go. That seems more accurate.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

You can’t use Church teaching to teach an empty hell.

You’re better off praying for your own salvation.

 

[Vico]

…

Vico:

[The Church] does teach that hell exists and those that died in mortal sin are there

Wrong tense, and tense is critical here. The Church teaches that “those who die in mortal sin…”, not “those who died in mortal sin”. The latter – the grammar of your presentation of the teaching – implies that this has already happened. The former – the grammar of the Church’s teaching – doesn’t imply that it has happened, but that this is how it works, as such, and not that it has or hasn’t happened.
…

The sequence is described for salvation and reprobation, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church does refer to the souls of those who have already died (See Catechism 1023) – some in heaven and others in purgatory. It also describes the particular judgment.

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification 594 or immediately, 595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation. 596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love. 597

Note also from scripture that some will not be saved.

Luke 13

23 And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them:
24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.

 

[Gorgias]

That when you diverge from Church teaching and form your own private magisterium, bad things happen?

Oh – you mean with respect to Judas? Got it: that he repented of his betrayal of Judas, but committed suicide. At that point in time, the Church thought that all suicides were mortal sins. They have modified that teaching. They can be, but aren’t necessarily all so. And since we can’t know what takes place in a person’s soul as they are dying from suicide, we cannot judge them. Only God can.

It is your personal interpretation that this means that Judas is in hell. We’ve already discussed the fact that the Church used to – but no longer – think that all suicides were mortal sin.

One other thought: sermons aren’t dogmatic declarations. They’re sermons. Period, full stop.

Participating in this thread, I’d say.

 

[Rubee]

The comment is based upon the idea that knowledge may have and effect to sway the free will of the person. Those without a state of sanctifying grace do not have merit nor can gain it, although there may be actual graces given. Do we know that actual grace is wrought by prayers?

That’s not the point made. The idea is that our prayers have an effect. I do not know who prayed for me such that I found the church. Probably, some nuns in a convent nearby had their prays applied to me. God does not need to tell us who prayed for us to apply the grace they gained for us to us.

And yes, of course our prayers and good works do that: There’d be no point in us or the saints praying if it didn’t result in grace being applied to a soul. And we absolutely participate in Christ’s salvific work in behalf of our fellow man through our prayers and sufferings, and works and offering up the mass, as St. Paul taught in scripture he was doing. Our lady, the biggest “participator” is called mediatrix of all graces for that reason.

 

[Gorgias]

You thought it was good enough to prove your point, however. And yet again… it isn’t.

On that point, I might be able to agree with you. If your interpretation is correct, then this might be considered a teaching that the Church subsequently has abandoned.

Fair enough.

Seriously… I have.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

The comment is based upon the idea that knowledge may have and effect to sway the free will of the person. Those without a state of sanctifying grace do not have merit nor can gain it, although there may be actual graces given. Do we know that actual grace is wrought by prayers?

That’s not the point made. The idea is that our prayers have an effect. I do not know who prayed for me such that I found the church. Probably, some nuns in a convent nearby had their prays applied to me. God does not need to tell us who prayed for us to apply the grace they gained for us to us.

And yes, of course our prayers and good works do that: There’d be no point in us or the saints praying if it didn’t result in grace being applied to a soul. And we absolutely participate in Christ’s salvific work in behalf of our fellow man through our prayers and sufferings, and works and offering up the mass, as St. Paul taught in scripture he was doing. Our lady, the biggest “participator” is called mediatrix of all graces for that reason.

I meant that my comment was based upon the idea the knowledge may have an effect to sway the free will of the person.

Through intercessory prayer we certainly share in the intercession of Christ.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

And yes, of course our prayers and good works do that: There’d be no point in us or the saints praying if it didn’t result in grace being applied to a soul

The soul has to be properly disposed.

Remember what Abraham told Dives?

“They have Moses and the Prophets. Let them listen to them.”

 

[Rubee]

The soul has to be properly disposed.

Remember what Abraham told Dives?

“They have Moses and the Prophets. Let them listen to them.”

Why do you think prayers are not part of what gets us properly disposed? Remember: Without grace even repentance itself and recognition of sin is impossible. Grace is always prior to “proper disposition,” unless you’re referring specifically to sacramental grace. If you don’t believe me, have a chat with St. Monica and St. Augustine. While at it, talk also to St. Maria Goretti and her rageful/unrepentant sociopathic murderer whom she saved with her intercession.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Why do you think prayers are not part of what gets us properly disposed?

Why do you think prayers automatically save people?

Remember: Without grace even repentance itself and recognition of sin is impossible.

And God gives everyone sufficient grace. Intercession doesn’t guarentee salvation.

 

[Rubee]

Why do you think prayers automatically save people?

Strawman. I didn’t say they “automatically save.” God knows how to apply grace to people and he has never suggested that we pray only for people who are “properly disposed” or worse, required us to be “properly disposed” before we could receive grace. If he did, we’d all be in hell right now, after all. How arrogant it’d be for us to succumb to pellagianism and think we could achieve such a disposition if grace were not first granted to us and penetrated into our will and intellect.

And God gives everyone sufficient grace. Intercession doesn’t guarentee salvation.

The same God who wants us interceding for people, you mean? Somehow, it was important to him to set up salvation economy in a way where we do participate in Christ’s redemptive work on behalf of others with our prayers and sacrifice and offerings and not just work individually as if we were not our brother’s keeper. Somehow, catholicism’s participatory frame of the incarnation IS true.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Julius_Caesar:

Why do you think prayers automatically save people?

Strawman. I didn’t say they “automatically save.” God knows how to apply grace to people and he has never suggested that we pray only for people who are “properly disposed” or worse, required us to be “properly disposed” before we could receive grace

The same God who said, “Ask and it will be given to you?”

The same God who wants us interceding for people, you mean?

Again, God never said intercession guarentees salvation. As Abraham said, “They have Moses and the Prophets. Let them listen to them.”

 

[Rubee]

The same God who said, “Ask and it will be given to you?”

The same God the CATHOLIC church teaches when she tells us this about grace:

Actual Grace​

Grace ( gratia, Charis ), in general, is a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures (men, angels) for their eternal salvation, whether the latter be furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness.

Before the Council of Trent, the Schoolmen seldom distinguished actual grace from sanctifying grace. But, in consequence of modern controversies regarding grace, it has become usual and necessary in theology to draw a sharper distinction between the transient help to act (actual grace) and the permanent state of grace (sanctifying grace). For this reason we adopt this distinction as our principle of division in our exposition of the Catholic doctrine. In this article we shall treat only of actual grace. (See also SANCTIFYING GRACE.)

So no, God doesn’t seem to act like you’d like, asking people to be properly disposed and “ask for it” first, before helping them to reach such a disposition where they’d even BE ABLE to want to do such a thing (And thank God he doesn’t! You’d be hellbound if he did).

 

[Julius_Caesar]

So no, God doesn’t seem to act like you’d like, asking people to be properly disposed before helping them to reach such a disposition

“Ask and you shall receive.”

The Church while holding to grace still teaches synergy.

In order for a person to be saved, they still have to accept the grace of God.

Why did Jesus ask specifically whether people.wanted to be healed?

 

[Rubee]

“Ask and you shall receive.”

The Church while holding to grace still teaches synergy.

In order for a person to be saved, they still have to accept the grace of God.

Why did Jesus ask specifically whether people.wanted to be healed?

And who is saying people will be saved without accepting sanctifying grace? Your arguments are based on strawmen and pellagian presumptions about how grace and intercessory prayer works. You started this whole thing by attacking my comment about praying for sinners for crying out loud. Thank goodness God is far more generous to us than you’d prefer.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Your arguments are based on strawmen and pellagian presumptions about how grace and intercessory prayer works.

Not Pelagian. You’d go on the opposite end of the spectrum.

This is what the Church actually teaches on intercessory prayer, and not what you’ve cherry picked.

A sinner still has to choose to follow Christ, whether he has people praying or not.

 

[Rubee]

This is what the Church actually teaches on intercessory prayer, and not what you’ve cherry picked.

A sinner still has to choose to follow Christ, whether he has people praying or not.

You are simply insisting the strawman you created is operational and beating it hard with your big bad bat. NO ONE HERE IS ARGUING THAT SINNERS WILL BE SAVED WITHOUT REPENTING. So . . . so much for your fake protestations based on a phantom argument you’ve made up entirely in your head because you cannot argue against the one actually before you. You’re the one complaining that intercessory prayers are offered for those “without proper disposition” which is plain pelagian and would condemn you to hell if it were remotely true.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

You’re the one complaining that intercessory prayers are offered for those

You yourself deal in strawmen. Intercessory prayers aren’t a guarantee for salvation.

 

[Rubee]

You yourself deal in strawmen. Intercessory prayers aren’t a guarantee for salvation.

No one said they are: You are now lying, given how often it’s been pointed out to you, not just strawmanning. And you did say what you did about disposition and prayer for sinners, didn’t have to make it up like you’re doing with this false claim.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

And you did say what you did about disposition and prayer for sinners,

Yeah. It’s true.

You actually have to want grace in order to receive it. Otherwise, you’re espousing Calvinism.

So you deal in heresy as well as strawmen. :man_shrugging:t6: