Which Homosexuals Are "Incurable"?

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Grace & Peace!

To this point, I wanted to mention something I’d written in a previous post in a thread titled: “Why can’t homosexuals see that their behavior is an abomination?” The full post is here:forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10206191&postcount=192. You can get to the thread (now closed) from there…] if you want people to change their lives, then you will need to imagine with them the new life you would like them to live, and you will need to imagine it with them in such a way that it is instantly recognizable and desirable as something imminently and authentically good, true and beautiful–i.e., that it is better in real and discernibly present ways than what they have now. This requires, in part, being able to see them as already being the sort of wonderful people you want them to be as opposed to assuming that they are the horrible folks you suspect them to be. I commend you, Bucket, for encouraging folks to think faithfully beyond the customary talking points.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
Mark,

I imagine it is possible to imagine to see someone without the sin…and I imagine as God looks down from heaven He sees better than I can…
if you want people to change their lives, then you will need to imagine with **Fornicators/Protsitutes/Masturbators/Homosexuals **with the new life you would like them to live, and you will need to imagine it with those Fornicators/Prostitutes/Masturbators/Homosexuals in such a way that it is instantly recognizable and desirable as something imminently and authentically good, true and beautiful–i.e., that it is better in real and discernibly present ways than what the Fornicators/Prostitutes/Masturbators/Homosexuals have now. This requires, in part, being able to see these **Fornicators/Prostitutes/Masturbators/Homosexuals **as already being the sort of wonderful people you want them to be as opposed to assuming that these **Fornicators/Prostitutes/Masturbators/Homosexuals **are the horrible folks you suspect them to be.
I would imagine without the continued sinning that seeing the beauty of those lives would be a whole lot easier.🙂

It was brilliant Mark…truly brilliant…🙂
 
I would imagine without the continued sinning that seeing the beauty of those lives would be a whole lot easier.🙂
True enough. Then I remember all the sins I’ve committed and pray that others see what God sees, not what I would typically see when I come upon other sinners.
 
True enough. Then I remember all the sins I’ve committed and pray that others see what God sees, not what I would typically see when I come upon other sinners.
Bucket,

Your sins against Chastity…as this is what all these sins are?
 
Bucket,

Your sins against Chastity…as this is what all these sins are?
Sure. But why stop there? What about my sins of avarice? What about my sins of envy? What about my sins of pride? Oh my goodness my sins of pride! My sins of pride probably well outweigh others’ sins against chastity. After all, the flesh is weak. We as humans are so susceptible to sins of the flesh. But sins of the spirit? You’d think I would be better inoculated! Nope.
 
Sure. But why stop there? What about my sins of avarice? What about my sins of envy? What about my sins of pride? Oh my goodness my sins of pride! My sins of pride probably well outweigh others’ sins against chastity. After all, the flesh is weak. We as humans are so susceptible to sins of the flesh. But sins of the spirit? You’d think I would be better inoculated! Nope.
Bucket,

You have a point…

Maybe, these sins against Chastity have at their root Pride…Pride is the queen of sins…as Gregory the Great points out, from which we get our 7 deadly sins…like in the movie …7…it is these sins that are at the heart of all sins against Chastity…

lectionarycentral.com/GregoryMoralia/Book31.html
  1. For the tempting vices, which fight against us in invisible contest in behalf of the pride which reigns over them, some of them go first, like captains, others follow, after the manner of an army. For all faults do not occupy the heart with equal access. But while the greater and the few surprise a neglected mind, the smaller and the numberless pour themselves upon it in a whole body. For when pride, the queen of sins, has fully possessed a conquered heart, she surrenders it immediately to seven principal sins, as if to some of her generals, to lay it waste. And an army in truth follows these generals, because, doubtless, there spring up from them importunate hosts of sins. Which we set forth the better, if we specially bring forward in enumeration, as we are able, the leaders themselves and their army. For pride is the root of all evil, of which it is said, as Scripture bears witness; Pride is the beginning of all sin. [Ecclus. 10, 1] But seven principal vices, as its first progeny, spring doubtless from this poisonous root, namely, vain glory, envy, anger, melancholy, avarice, gluttony, lust. For, because He grieved that we were held captive by these seven sins of pride, therefore our Redeemer came to the spiritual battle of our liberation, full of the spirit of sevenfold grace.
and it is these sins that lead to disobedience and noticeably lust…because to Lust for another, knowing that in that homosexual realtionship it can only be lust…there you have found something significant…
  1. But these several sins have each their army against us. For from vain glory there arise disobedience, boasting, hypocrisy, contentions, obstinacies, discords, and the presumptions of novelties. From envy there spring hatred, whispering, detraction, exultation at the misfortunes of a neighbour, and affliction at his prosperity. From anger are produced strifes, swelling of mind, insults, clamour, indignation, blasphemies. From melancholy there arise malice, rancour, cowardice, despair, slothfulness in fulfilling the commands, and a wandering of the mind on unlawful objects. From avarice there spring treachery, fraud, deceit, perjury, restlessness, violence, and hardnesses of heart against compassion. From gluttony are propagated foolish mirth, scurrility, uncleanness, babbling, dulness of sense in understanding.** From lust are generated blindness of mind, inconsiderateness, inconstancy, precipitation, self-love, hatred of God, affection for this present world, but dread or despair of that which is to come.** Because, therefore, seven principal vices produce from themselves so great a multitude of vices, when they reach the heart, they bring, as it were, the bands of an army after them. But of these seven, five namely are spiritual, and two are carnal.
Perhaps you are correct…these sins of Chastity start with Pride, Avarice, Disobedience and subsequently Lust that leads to these sins against Chastity…

It is worse than I imagined…🙂
 
knowing that in that homosexual realtionship it can only be lust…there you have found something significant…
That’s not necessarily true. I think it’s plenty possible for homosexuals in a relationship to have genuine affection for one another and even express Christian love. It is in the sexual aspect of the relationship where there arises a disorder. The same goes for heterosexuals who “shack up.” I’ve seen plenty of them where there is real love. Real caring. Real self-sacrifice. Yes, they are not expressing love properly when they engage in sexual acts the way a married couple does, but they can express love in many other ways.

It is entirely inappropriate and sinful for homosexuals to express any romantic or sexual love for one another. But they most certainly can and do express other forms of love in their relationships. We should emulate any good example we can find in those cases while making sure to not emulate the sinful aspects.
 
April,

You will have to do better than this. It is not accepted science. It is accepted theory. You truly may be clever but in the sense of believing that you have found evolution to be accepted science, you are correct concerning your adeptness in cleverness.
Evolution is accepted science.
 
Evolution is accepted science.
Floyd,

When I was in college, studying Zoology, no longer a major, now it is Biology…Evolution was an accepted theory that has yet to be proved…and if you have better evidence than what I studied let me know.

Evolution is an accepted theory, that is fact…it has yet to be proven correct or incorrect…but that does not make it accepted science.

What is your evidence of this accepted science based on…
 
I remember reading a story about homosexual.
There was this guy who was a gay and had AIDS.
He was hospitalized, suffering from his disease symptoms.
He only had couple months to live.
One lady, who’s appearance wasn’t decent but had a great heart,
started taking care of him.
In the beginning, he didn’t open his heart. He was very cold.
However, as time went by, he slowly started to change his mind.
She took care of him with LOVE.
And guess what happend? Before he passed away, he proposed her
and they got married!
There’s nothing in the world that can’t be changed or cured by love!
And most importantly, God is love. Keep praying and don’t lose your faith.
I pray for your brother & your family 🙂 God bless.
 
Floyd,

When I was in college, studying Zoology, no longer a major, now it is Biology…Evolution was an accepted theory that has yet to be proved…and if you have better evidence than what I studied let me know.

Evolution is an accepted theory, that is fact…it has yet to be proven correct or incorrect…but that does not make it accepted science.

What is your evidence of this accepted science based on…
It is not my evidence. Scientific theory is a very high standard and is based on verifiable and testable evidence and facts.
 
It is not my evidence. Scientific theory is a very high standard and is based on verifiable and testable evidence and facts.
Floyd,

So, since I studied it and you have not you are appealing to something that someone else says…and really have not way of substantiating this claim.

Yes, I understand science, I have been studying it all my life, in school, got degrees and everything…but you are wrong.
 
Floyd,

When I was in college, studying Zoology, no longer a major, now it is Biology…Evolution was an accepted theory that has yet to be proved…and if you have better evidence than what I studied let me know.

Evolution is an accepted theory, that is fact…it has yet to be proven correct or incorrect…but that does not make it accepted science.

What is your evidence of this accepted science based on…
It is not my evidence. Scientific theory is a very high standard and is based on verifiable and testable evidence and facts.
 
It is not my evidence. Scientific theory is a very high standard and is based on verifiable and testable evidence and facts.
April,

Teach me…
In effect, the Theory of Evolution states that all living things have evolved from other living things. All living things can trace their roots to other species that came before them.
Show me the proof for this…since this is the theory of Evolution stated.

Show me how it is verified.

Show me how it is tested.
 
Floyd,

So, since I studied it and you have not you are appealing to something that someone else says…and really have not way of substantiating this claim.

Yes, I understand science, I have been studying it all my life, in school, got degrees and everything…but you are wrong.
Don’t shoot the messenger. Saying i’m wrong won’t change anything.
 
Don’t shoot the messenger. Saying i’m wrong won’t change anything.
April,

Your message based on your messaging should be swayed towards and undertanding that you would do well…to say

I believe, that evolution is scientific, verifiable, based on fact…althought honestly I could not prove what I believe to be true…and I understand that there may be disagreement in spite of my beliefs.

Then you as a messenger would be immune.
 
April,

Your message based on your messaging should be swayed towards and undertanding that you would do well…to say

I believe, that evolution is scientific, verifiable, based on fact…althought honestly I could not prove what I believe to be true…and I understand that there may be disagreement in spite of my beliefs.

Then you as a messenger would be immune.
It’s not a belief, it’s accepted science, it does not matter what I think.
 
Grace & Peace!
I imagine it is possible to imagine to see someone without the sin…and I imagine as God looks down from heaven He sees better than I can…

I would imagine without the continued sinning that seeing the beauty of those lives would be a whole lot easier.🙂

It was brilliant Mark…truly brilliant…🙂
Coptic, do you imagine it’s possible to see and love Christ in others if all we can see in them is the sin they do?

Do you imagine that salvation would be possible if God waited for us to love him properly before he was willing (to borrow the words of Hezekiah from Isaiah) to love our souls from the pit corruption? Do you imagine that salvation would be possible if God waited for us to stop sinning before he revealed to us his own vision of the New Adam in the self-emptying love of Jesus Christ?

Do you imagine that when Paul writes to the Ephesians that they should “walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God” that he was characterizing the self-emptying love of Jesus on behalf of sinners as the sort of love which is best imitated A) by moral theologizing from a distance; or B) by active self-desolation (if need be) on behalf of others, especially sinners and for the sake of their good?

Do you imagine that when Paul writes to the Corinthians that Love “does not take offense or store up grievances” that what he meant to say was “Love is easily offended by others’ sin and finds it impossible to even imagine another’s goodness when their sinfulness is so manifest–because if there’s one thing the Incarnation, Life, Death, Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus Christ shows, it’s that Love prefers maintaining a comfortable distance in order to better cultivate an attitude of smug disdain when it comes to the sinfulness of others”?

If you wish to mischaracterize what I write and the spirit in which I’ve written it, you’re free to do so…but in this case I’m afraid that your mischaracterization has not reflected well on your own conception of Christian love.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Great article thougtht I would share.🙂

By Dale O’Leary On February 25, 2013 @ 8:00 AM In Featured,The Homosexual Agenda,Those in Need | No Comments

catholiclane.com/wp-content/uploads/compassion-caring-300x224.jpg [1]The Church, by which I mean hierarchy, clergy, religious, and laity, must step up and face the challenge posed by the militant gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, and queer activists — the GLBTQ coalition. It is simply not enough to defend marriage; we have to explain to the people in the pews, to our children, and to world why the Church does not – cannot – accept sexual relations between two persons of the same sex. We must do so with love and compassion, but without sacrificing the truth.
First, while many people sincerely believe that individuals are born with same-sex attraction (SSA) and gender identity disorders (GID) and can’t change, there is no replicated scientific evidence to support that belief. There is overwhelming evidence that SSA and GID are not genetic or biological conditions. If they were then identical twins would virtually always have the same pattern of sexual attraction and this is not the case. That does not mean that SSA and GID are a choice. Nor is there a single explanation for all SSA.
Each person with SSA has his or her own unique personal history. A number of therapists are convinced that some babies are born more vulnerable to the anxiety. This vulnerability combined with early negative experiences can affect the babies’ ability to identify with their same-sex parent or peers. The child grows up trying to find the love and acceptance missed as a baby and this need becomes interpreted as sexual desire. Because these negative experiences occur during the first two years of life before memory, GLBTQ persons may honestly say they always felt different and were born that way.
Although persons with GID and SSA have free will and can choose not to act on their feelings, the inner forces driving them to engage in sexual behavior with persons of the same sex are very strong and their struggle and suffering should not be underestimated. There are, however, numerous reports of change of sexual attraction – both spontaneous and through therapy. The more we understand about the origins of SSA, the greater the potential for prevention.
Therapists who work with people who want to be free of SSA and GID have made real progress in understanding the early childhood traumas and deficits which put a person on the path to GID and SSA. *I strongly recommend Shame and Attachment Loss: The Practical Work of Reparative Therapy [2] *by Joseph J. Nicolosi and The Heart of Female Same-Sex Attraction: A Comprehensive Counseling Resource [3] by Janelle M. Hallman [4].
There is growing understanding of the part failure to attach plays in many psychological disorders. According to attachment theory in order to achieve psychological wholeness a person needs to successfully negotiate several stages in early childhood: attachment to the mother, separation from the mother, identification with the same-sex parent or peers. Failure to negotiate the first stage, makes it more difficult to negotiate the second, and third. While a history of failure to securely attach, separate, and identify probably accounts for many instances of SSA and GID, there are other less common reasons. When the individual histories of persons with SSA and GID are probed, the reasons for their patterns of thought can usually be discerned.
As Catholic Christians we have an obligation to treat every person as a fellow sinner in need of grace. We can thank God that we do not have these particular temptations, while at the same time making sure that therapy, counseling, support groups (like Courage), and understanding priests in the confessional are available. If the problem is never mentioned from the pulpit, if support and counseling are not easily accessible, if the priest in the confessional has no practical direction to offer, those who suffer from such temptations will rightly feel alone and abandoned. They will be tempted by the world which says “Come out. Join the gay community. Be proud.â€
When they do so, they will join a community where psychological disorders, suicidal ideation, substance abuse problems, relationship instability, domestic violence, STDS, HIV, cancer and other health problems are far more common. They will cut themselves off from the source of grace and often become angry at God.
Compassion requires that we do not, like the priest and the Levi, pass by the man who fell among thieves, but offer real help.
 
Grace & Peace!

Coptic, do you imagine it’s possible to see and love Christ in others if all we can see in them is the sin they do?

Do you imagine that salvation would be possible if God waited for us to love him properly before he was willing (to borrow the words of Hezekiah from Isaiah) to love our souls from the pit corruption? Do you imagine that salvation would be possible if God waited for us to stop sinning before he revealed to us his own vision of the New Adam in the self-emptying love of Jesus Christ?

Do you imagine that when Paul writes to the Ephesians that they should “walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God” that he was characterizing the self-emptying love of Jesus on behalf of sinners as the sort of love which is best imitated A) by moral theologizing from a distance; or B) by active self-desolation (if need be) on behalf of others, especially sinners and for the sake of their good?

Do you imagine that when Paul writes to the Corinthians that Love “does not take offense or store up grievances” that what he meant to say was “Love is easily offended by others’ sin and finds it impossible to even imagine another’s goodness when their sinfulness is so manifest–because if there’s one thing the Incarnation, Life, Death, Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus Christ shows, it’s that Love prefers maintaining a comfortable distance in order to better cultivate an attitude of smug disdain when it comes to the sinfulness of others”?

If you wish to mischaracterize what I write and the spirit in which I’ve written it, you’re free to do so…but in this case I’m afraid that your mischaracterization has not reflected well on your own conception of Christian love.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
Mark,

Tell me what you believe Love to be.
 
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