Which is the greater sin, fornication or abortion?

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Argh:
Also, for example, a married man have sex with an unmarried woman is another case of fornication.
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That’s not fornication. That’s adultery. Fornication in our faith is defined differently from the way it may be defined in a secular dictionary. Here’s how the Catechism of the Catholic Church defines fornication:

***Fornication *is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman.

#2353
 
debbie m.:
The Church does make the distinction between the two. A woman who has an abortion, or anyone who helps in any way knowingly, are automatically excommunicated. Whereas, a fornicator is not excommunicated.
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That’s right. That is the definitive answer.
 
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rastell:
To the 24 people who didn’t say abortion, I have a followup question:

What is the greater sin, missing Mass on a Holy Day or killing 500,000 people.

I bet a get a couple of these folks who choose the Holy Day!
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Quick answer: killing 500,000 people is greater from the world’s point of view in that it has greater temporal effects. From God’s point of view I am tempted to assume that means it’s the greater sin but I don’t know because I am not the judge, so I don’t know if this is enough information to decide.

A recurring theme I have is to not make quick judgments on the sinfulness of an act by its outward appearances. Again, I’m talking about the effects of how much it grieves God which we do not quantitatively know, and not the physical damage which we sometimes can measure.

“Everybody” would say murder is worse than insults, but Christ specifically compared the sin of anger and insult toward a brother to murder. Would I rather another person murdered me or insulted me? That one’s obvious. Which grieves God more in any specific situation? I dare not guess. Which one will cause a person to burn in hell, well obviously either one can so how much more drastic can one get?

Same way with missing a Holy Day. If it is a mortal sin which can send me to hell for all eternity, then it’s not much comfort that someone on earth thought my sin was less than Dr. Tiller’s. All the pontificating in the world doesn’t help me.

If anybody doesn’t agree with me, I challenge him/her to explain to me the whole point of this Good News:
Luke 18:9-14:
He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. “Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity–greedy, dishonest, adulterous–or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’
But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
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Sounds like all I have to do is say, “gee I only missed Mass it’s not like I killed someone” to put ourselves at risk. By judging the other person lower, we have taken a higher place for ourselves and risking being put down. He who exalts himself (including in comparison to others) will be humbled.

Alan
 
AlanFromWichita said:
“Everybody” would say murder is worse than insults, but Christ specifically compared the sin of anger and insult toward a brother to murder.
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I think what Christ compared was the sin of desiring to murder someone with the sin of murdering someone.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Quick answer: killing 500,000 people is greater from the world’s point of view in that it has greater temporal effects. From God’s point of view I am tempted to assume that means it’s the greater sin but I don’t know because I am not the judge, so I don’t know if this is enough information to decide.

A recurring theme I have is to not make quick judgments on the sinfulness of an act by its outward appearances. Again, I’m talking about the effects of how much it grieves God which we do not quantitatively know, and not the physical damage which we sometimes can measure.

“Everybody” would say murder is worse than insults, but Christ specifically compared the sin of anger and insult toward a brother to murder. Would I rather another person murdered me or insulted me? That one’s obvious. Which grieves God more in any specific situation? I dare not guess. Which one will cause a person to burn in hell, well obviously either one can so how much more drastic can one get?

Same way with missing a Holy Day. If it is a mortal sin which can send me to hell for all eternity, then it’s not much comfort that someone on earth thought my sin was less than Dr. Tiller’s. All the pontificating in the world doesn’t help me.

If anybody doesn’t agree with me, I challenge him/her to explain to me the whole point of this Good News:

Sounds like all I have to do is say, “gee I only missed Mass it’s not like I killed someone” to put ourselves at risk. By judging the other person lower, we have taken a higher place for ourselves and risking being put down. He who exalts himself (including in comparison to others) will be humbled.

Alan
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**Unless you can show me official teachings of the Catholic Church that state killing mass murder is not a greater sin than missing Mass on a Holy Day, I will stick with my common sense. **

One of the reasons I am a Catholic is that I always find the Church’s teaching are sensible. and reasonable.
 
they are both horrible sins. i put abortion but I should have checked equal.
 
rastell said:
**Unless you can show me official teachings of the Catholic Church that state killing mass murder is not a greater sin than missing Mass on a Holy Day, I will stick with my common sense. **

One of the reasons I am a Catholic is that I always find the Church’s teaching are sensible. and reasonable.
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They are both mortal sins. They both separate us from God.

If we go to hell about either one then I hardly see there was a distinction.

You are welcome to your “common sense” but I’ll tell you this much; anybody who crows because they “only” missed Mass and “it’s not like they had an abortion or something” will be less justified in Christ’s eyes than a person who regrets their abortion and asks for God’s mercy.

It is very difficult for many people to envision God judging our sins in any other way than by their temporal effects, but Christ said not to make surface judgments.

And before anybody puts these words in my mouth, I’ll put them there first: on the surface it appears to our carnal minds that abortion is worse than missing Mass, but there is not enough information to outguess God’s judgment thereabout.

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
They are both mortal sins. They both separate us from God.

If we go to hell about either one then I hardly see there was a distinction.

You are welcome to your “common sense” but I’ll tell you this much; anybody who crows because they “only” missed Mass and “it’s not like they had an abortion or something” will be less justified in Christ’s eyes than a person who regrets their abortion and asks for God’s mercy.

It is very difficult for many people to envision God judging our sins in any other way than by their temporal effects, but Christ said not to make surface judgments.

And before anybody puts these words in my mouth, I’ll put them there first: on the surface it appears to our carnal minds that abortion is worse than missing Mass, but there is not enough information to outguess God’s judgment thereabout.

Alan
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I think the post by Debbie M. said it best:

"The Church does make the distinction between the two. A woman who has an abortion, or anyone who helps in any way knowingly, are automatically excommunicated. Whereas, a fornicator is not excommunicated."

Is this not what the Church teaches?
 
One other thing:

I am not saying missing Sunday or Holy Day Mass on purpose is not a mortal sin. I am saying that to put it and mass murder in the same category trivalizes mass murder and in our present Culture of Death climate that is the last thing I want to see trivalized.
 
I would say sin is sin in God’s eyes but certain sins have a much greater weight or cause and effect than others. I can assume most of the people here in this forum think abortion is murder. Also to get an abortion takes premeditation or it has to be thought through in most (if not all circumstances) well in advance whether it is a day or a couple of weeks. Yet one could be in varying situations and end up committing fornication (or adultery) under varying circumstances. For example one could be caught up in the moment of passion and have sex outside of marriage that equals to at least one sin. But getting an abortion has to be for example (1) thought out ahead of time, (2) actually getting the abortion, (3) why or what are the circumstances that are causing the person to get an abortion — like the persons involved are not married??? As we can see that equals to at least two sins and most likely three sins that are needed to carry out the abortion. As one can see three equals more than one. Also fornication even though a sin can create life (something good possibly coming out of something evil as sin) but abortion always destroys life. Plus there are health risks associated with each sin. Fornication may bring on an unwanted STD(s), etc. Abortions are not 100 percent safe as the women could become infertile due to infection or possibly die from the procedure. Who would want to die with that type of sin on their soul? Also, the people involved in promoting the whole process of getting the abortion(s) will have to answer on Judgment Day.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
It is a mathematical process, kind of like multiplication.
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yes i remember that class from high school fornification 101 it was not my best subject though i liked shop class much better
 
rastell said:
I think the post by Debbie M. said it best:

"The Church does make the distinction between the two. A woman who has an abortion, or anyone who helps in any way knowingly, are automatically excommunicated. Whereas, a fornicator is not excommunicated."

Is this not what the Church teaches?
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Maybe it is what the Church teaches, but I have to wonder whether the Church’s special attention to this one sin and holding it above all others actually proclaims the Good News.

A priest can molest dozens of children and not be automatically excommunicated. Why? Christ forgave us our sins.

I can kill a full grown priest and not be automatically excommunicated. In fact, what if it was the same priest that molested my child? I might have denied him a chance he would have taken to repent and thus participated in sending him to hell. Why? Christ forgave us our sins.

A desperate, confused young woman kills a very young baby who probably feels less pain than a baby being circumcized, thus sending its soul directly to heaven, and she’s excommunicated. Why? Maybe because we still haven’t given up the mentality of stoning the prostitute?

Alan
 
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rastell:
One other thing:

I am not saying missing Sunday or Holy Day Mass on purpose is not a mortal sin. I am saying that to put it and mass murder in the same category trivalizes mass murder and in our present Culture of Death climate that is the last thing I want to see trivalized.
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Then do you think that Jesus was trivializing murder when he compared anger (or as another poster has suggested, the desire for murder) to actual, physical murder?

If not, then why don’t we also excommunicate people who seriously contemplate having an abortion? The worldly mind will protest that doesn’t make sense, but God’s wisdom does seem foolish to a man.

It is very difficult for us to understand that Christ is consistently concerned about our souls, more than “holding us responsible” for the outward, temporal effects of past sins. He came specifically so that we would not have to suffer the effects of past sins.

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Maybe it is what the Church teaches, but I have to wonder whether the Church’s special attention to this one sin and holding it above all others actually proclaims the Good News.
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The Church doesn’t do that. There are a number of sins that merit automatic excommunication. Abortion is just one of them. And the penalty of automatic excommunication, while for very grave sins, is not meant to indicate that sins which are not subject to that penalty necessarily are less grave.

The Church does teach that some sins are graver than others.
 
I have been taught and personally believe that both fornication and abortion are mortal sins.

I guess if they are both mortal sins, they are equal sins in God’s eyes.

However, I personally feel that abortion is worse. Abortion is murder and effects another human being. Fornication is wrong, but it doesn’t involve killing an innocent person.

Karen
 
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SWTHRT:
I have been taught and personally believe that both fornication and abortion are mortal sins.

I guess if they are both mortal sins, they are equal sins in God’s eyes.

However, I personally feel that abortion is worse. Abortion is murder and effects another human being. Fornication is wrong, but it doesn’t involve killing an innocent person.
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Dear Karen,

I believe you have answered wisely in that you have stated your opinion as if it were your own opinion, and you are not presuming to know what God thinks – even though you are willing to speculate. 👍

It’s hard for me to say one is “worse” than another. Without fornication, there would be precious little abortion. Prevent fornication and you may be preventing two sins.

Just to throw something provocative out there, I may as well admit that I personally think that adultery is worse than fornication, and may be worse than abortion, in terms of temporal effects.

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
It’s hard for me to say one is “worse” than another. Without fornication, there would be precious little abortion. Prevent fornication and you may be preventing two sins.

Just to throw something provocative out there, I may as well admit that I personally think that adultery is worse than fornication, and may be worse than abortion, in terms of temporal effects.

Alan
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Why don’t you submit your opinion to one of the priests on the EWTN.com site’s question page. I would be interested to see how an expert would view your statements.
 
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zootjeff:
Speaking of death,
My cousin was pregnant, went in for a checkup and they said the fetus didn’t have a heart beat. It had been dead for a couple weeks. She was so sad.
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My! My girlfriends sister appears to be in the same situation. There was no heart beat and they plan to do a potassium check to verify that the child is deceased.

For both children,

Our Father, who art in Heaven
Hallowed be thy name,
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done,
On earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day, our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

Amen.
 
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abcdefg:
how’s an unwed mother compared with married couples who have abortions?
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They are not compared. They are both loved. The former is supported and nourished with physical necessities as well as the faith to provide sprititual enrichment as well as guard rails. The latter is called to repentance and confession but always accepted.
 
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