Whitewashing US history with 'patriotic education' -Trump

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Excellent, control the culture and you control the politics. Between this, immigration control, and now a 6-3 SCOTUS, the American right has the potential to dominate the politics for a couple of generations.
 
A good model for how to deal with the flaws of one’s national past is Germany. The German people came together and decided that the extreme master race ideology was not to be tolerated. They banned the flying of the Nazi flag (which is not banned in the US, by the way). They made holocaust education a part of the school curriculum. To bad we are moving away from their excellent model.
 
Seeing as their model led to them importing thousands of foreigners out of some misplaced suicidal sense of guilt, I am thankful for that.
 
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WingedHussar said:
Seeing as their model led to them importing thousands of foreigners out of some misplaced suicidal sense of guilty, I am thankful for that.
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So, you don’t think the Nazi’s were guilty of any of the misery of WWII? That guilt is “misplaced?”
 
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This is a meme spread by far-right YouTubers. Germany hasn’t really taken in that many migrants relative to how many have been trying to get into Europe. More have been dumped into Turkey with the consent of the EU than have been accepted into Germany.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
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JonNC:
This is a disgusting remark.
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Original has been edited appropriately
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I’ve edited my post to reflect the change.
 
umamibella said:
Australia of course
Its bonza mate
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Australia may well be 90% or more white. Thus, asking how blacks are treated in Australia I’d say is a total non-starter and irrelevant. I also have no idea what the history of slavery is in Australia or if they even had them.

European powers and Africans themselves, brought this here, it was the way of the world.

Bonza Mate
 
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If patriotic education is about talking about the great things and bad things a country has done in history, as well as how to make the country better, it’s totally fine with me. But if it’s about “we are better than everybody else in all aspects and if you don’t agree then go to hell”, then I will be deeply disgusted by it.

In fact, while the USA claims to be the “freest country in the world”, its daily (and sometimes FORCED) Pledge of Allegiance in schools closely resembles the dreadful brainwashing nightmare I had to put up as a child growing up in Communist China, where we had to stand in formation every Monday morning for a flag-raising ceremony, followed by some ultranationalistic anti-Western and anti-Japanese propaganda speech afterwards. Ironically, China only does this kind of brainwashing ONCE A WEEK while the USA does it EVERY DAY.

Failure to comply also carries consequences in both countries. In China, doubting the country’s greatness will mostly result in formal punishment from the teachers (now it’s even worse), but you WILL ALSO be labeled the “traitor of the race” and your peers will frequently bully you and physically assault you while the teacher stands there and watch, and sometimes even praising your assailants for their “patriotic actions”. In the USA, refusing to say the Pledge sometimes carries a similar consequence. You are also likely become the public enemy, subject to bullying, and occasionally the teacher might call the police to have you arrested WITH THE INTENTION TO TRAUMATIZE YOU despite the First Amendment Rights.

After having lived in four countries and been to many more, I saw that countries that are worthy of your loyalty would win it by treating you nicely, and that’s what PATRIOTISM OUGHT TO BE. Only the countries that aren’t worthy of loyalty will brainwash and force people to be “patriotic”, but that’s really FASCISM to me.
 
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I’m not sure that any of these things are outright lies. I truly believe there is a lot of nuance to America.

We were not founded by angels or saints. We were founded by white, mostly wealthy, mostly slave-owning protestant men. Many of these men were virulently anti-catholic elites bent on forming a new power structure in their image.

I don’t believe racism is in any country’s DNA. However, racism is certainly embedded deeply in America’s history.

I am a white male who was blessed to grow up in an upper-middle-class Catholic family. I have no problem admitting that I benefited from my white ancestry. No door was ever closed on me because of my race. I had ever structural advantage a person could possibly have in the U.S.

Systemic or institutional racism is a misnomer in my opinion. We certainly do not have a structural apartheid system any longer. However, we are only 5 decades removed from deep systemic and institutional racism in the south. Elements of that system still impact American society today.
 
Boomster1 said:
Systemic or institutional racism is a misnomer in my opinion. We certainly do not have a structural apartheid system any longer.
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These terms are not interchangeable. You are correct to say we do not have structural racism any longer. Structural implies written into law or otherwise explicitly stated. But the term “systemic racism” is a little trickier. It refers to any aspect of the system, including those things that are implemented as a matter of free choice by those in power when the law allows such a free choice. One example could be a difference in how discretionary sentences are applied to backs vs. whites. There is no explicit structural reason why there should be any difference. But if, as a matter of fact, those in power whose prerogative is to make such discretionary decisions just happen to make them in a biased manner, the result can properly be called systemic racism, even though it is not structural. The term “institutional racism” is generally used as a synonym for “systemic racism” and is also expressed as non-codified biases that are, as a matter of empirical fact, race-related as revealed by the statistics.

I also agree that racism is not embedded in the DNA of most people in America. However it is present in enough of those in power to make a difference, as long as the rest of the non-racist America just says nothing to challenge such abuses. Thankfully, that part is starting to change, and a large part of the population is standing up for those oppressed by racism. This will, sooner or later, get reflected in the unofficial policies and systemic racism will be vastly reduced, continuing the trend that has been going on for quite a while.
 
Boomster1 said:
I’m not sure that any of these things are outright lies. I truly believe there is a lot of nuance to America.
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Okay. I am.
Boomster1 said:
We were not founded by angels or saints. We were founded by white, mostly wealthy, mostly slave-owning protestant men. Many of these men were virulently anti-catholic elites bent on forming a new power structure in their image.
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No one said they were angels, but they did found a system that we as a country have gotten better and better at living up to.
Boomster1 said:
Systemic or institutional racism is a misnomer in my opinion. We certainly do not have a structural apartheid system any longer. However, we are only 5 decades removed from deep systemic and institutional racism in the south. Elements of that system still impact American society today.
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I agree, for the most part. In the last sentence, how?
 
I think you are answering my question about what is being taught and what is proposed to be taught going forward?
 
Victoria33 said:
Australia may well be 90% or more white. Thus, asking how blacks are treated in Australia I’d say is a total non-starter and irrelevant. I also have no idea what the history of slavery is in Australia or if they even had them.

European powers and Africans themselves, brought this here, it was the way of the world.

Bonza Mate
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Australia is quite a melting pot, it is predicted by mid century we will all reflect the immigration stats by being anything but Anglo Saxon in outward appearance. Even now, take a walk down the main street of any capital city to determine where our roots are. We did have a whites policy that was abandoned mid last century.
If you are discussing the Aboriginal problem, its best not to call an indigenous person a “black”. That would be an incredibly racist label here that does not reflect the indigenous culture and history.
Aboriginal people do not identify with the African American culture, as it is an indigenous First Peoples culture. Just recently, rock art has been found here that could be over 100 000 years old. Thats pretty exciting from both an Aboriginal perspective and an early human migration/out of Africa perspective.

but seriously , a question was asked and I answered it to another person on this thread. We could give really negative critique about every nation on earth. What does that prove? It exemplifies human nature and the tribal culture of us all.

Also I did not ask how African Americans are treated in Australia (blacks), did I miss the question where someone else did?
I say this because you said
'asking about how blacks are treated in Australia"
We dont have many African Americans here, we do however have a growing population of African refugees here, and their Australian Born children. Another migrant group adding to our rich diverse culture that is far removed from our original anglo saxon criminal roots.
We also have quite a student population from different countries in Africa, they come, get a uni education and go back home, having established a life long tie to Australia with student networks and professional development collaboration.

I will also say further, after we both went off topic . my question about what is taught now and what is changing is a very genuine question.

I was very interested in what is taught historically in schools in America and in other countries. It is not a question to be translated into anything political regarding any political candidate and support or not for that candidate.

Terra nullius was taught here in schools for a very long time and that is a topic for another thread.
 
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Have you ever lived in the US? The idea that saying the pledge before the start of a sports game or the school day is akin to brainwashing is ridiculous.

Also, I have never heard of a kid being arrested for refusing to say the pledge at school. You act like it’s a huge problem.
 
  • I understand you believe these things are outright lies and I respect your perspective. I’m not going to try and change your mind.
  • I believe you’re right. The founders created an extraordinary system of government…unique to human history. Historically, our country seems to make the right (better) calls on the big issues, but only after a tremendous amount of pain and suffering.
People of color still don’t have the opportunities that white Americans have. Again, these disparate impacts are nuanced. The nuance helps to mask the negative impacts on human beings.
  1. Racial profiling
  2. Access to medical care
  3. Access to housing
  4. Access to mortgage loans
  5. Employment discrimination
  6. Criminal Justice System
  7. The treatment of Native Americans in this country
Just a few examples off the top of my head. Again, I’d argue these things aren’t institutional because there are Federal Laws that prohibit these types of behavior. Unfortunately, these laws are difficult to enforce and the offenders in our society know that.

Unfortunately, we are no longer advancing as a nation. We’re sliding backward when it comes to racial justice. The protections remain in place but the messaging from the Federal Leadership projects something else entirely.

I’m not sure why so many people in our country won’t listen to and try to understand the perspective of so many of their fellow Americans.
 
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