Who are the deserving poor?

[emily47017]

Which brings me to a recurring point – why don’t we teach economics in school?

excellent question! gah!

my high school had a “life skills” course that was 1/2 semester and covered stuff like budgeting and balancing checkbooks… i suppose they also advised against 25% APR credit cards, too, but i don’t know because i never took it, nor did most of my class. if algebra is a year-long required course, why not econ. 101?

 

[vern_humphrey]

some kids have a hard time constructing a sentence …I want to know why my kids are not reading the classics like I did, when I went to school.

And another failed bureaucracy raises its ugly head – the public school system.

I will say though, that I graduated 20 yrs ago from high school…and I did not learn economics, and I went to a very high rated northeastern school, affluent area. I guess the bureaucrats don’t believe in kids learning principles and practices that they*** will ***use in every day life?

Far more important for them to learn about “diversity” and “sexual self-awareness.”:whacky:

 

[Trader]

are you sure about this? do you have a study to back it up? i hesitate to make any counter-assertions, not really knowing anything about the demographics of poverty today… but it seems unlikely to me.

Actually, no I am not sure about this and there is no study to back it up yet. A wave of foreclosures has not yet started and could possibly be avoided, so there is no way to do a study at this time. My information seems to be a concensus of analysts appearing on CNBC and I paid better attention before I started spending so much time on this site.

What we do know is that housing prices have slowed their rise in most places and declined in some. We do know for sure that interest rates have risen over the last several years and that adjustable rate mortgages that were very popular when rates were lower will be resetting at higher rates. We also know for sure that late payments are rising and borrowers typically wait way too long before contacting their lenders when they are having problems. I talked to a mortgage broker today who some real horror stories. One was a family with a $72,000 balloon payment due in 15 days and they were just starting to shop for a refinance, even though they had 15 YEARS notice that the balloon payment was part of the original mortgage.

You have to be very careful about government poverty statistics. They are mostly about income reported on tax returns. They have much less information on household assets. They also don’t count noncash benefits you mentioned. Medicaid, food stamps, child care, housing vouchers, job training and other education programs, assistance from private charites and gifts from family members are not reported on a tax return.

In 2002 I was dirt poor by their standards. It was the third consecutive year of 20% declines in the S&P 500 and my income was less than zero. To someone not in government a person with significant financial assets is not poor with or without income in a particular year.

 

[Hellisreal]

I often wonder if Mary had not said a word at the wedding …

Would the water changed to wine?

Were the bride and groom at the wedding at Cana deserving poor?

 

[Trader]

I often wonder if Mary had not said a word at the wedding …

Would the water changed to wine?

Were the bride and groom at the wedding at Cana deserving poor?

I think the Church is pretty clear that everything we receive from God is His free gift to us and is not deserved.

 

[Trader]

How about this:

“Cheryl” is very nice 20 year old who works part time and earns $6,000 per year. Is she poor and deserving of government aid?

Cheryl only works part time because she is a full time student at Notre Dame and her parents pay $40,000 to make that happen. Is she poor and deserving of government aid?

For her senior year Cheryl decides to move out of campus housing and move in with her boyfriend. Her parents explain that they love her, but if she makes this adult decision she will also have the adult responsibility to pay her own way. Is she poor and deserving of government aid?

Should the government be undermining the decision of loving parents?

 

[scarlet405]

if it’s someone i know who’s having these problems, by god here’s my spare bed…whose responsibility is this anyway?"

I like the way that you are saying you will step up to the plate for a friend, or simply someone you know. However, what happens when this deserving person is someone who is not related to us, someone who has NO control over their life, what happens when that someone is a child? and that child is a foster child with both parents in prison and foster parents who will not adequately feed and clothe the child, let alone make sure he has health care. When this particular child has no running water in his home because the bill wasn’t paid, same with electricity. This child is certainly DESERVING and deserving of much more than health care, he is going to need counseling and love, commitment, but we cannot purchase these. This child needs to feel the touch of God and know the wonders he can receive, but how?

This child I spoke about is REAL, he was one of my 1st graders last school year. I (the teacher) provided this child with snack, everyday. I bought him clothes and had the counselor give them to him to only see them never to return to school. I sent him to the school nurse as often as possible to be bathed, because he had no water at home. He had medicaid insurance, but only for one more year and if you are a child that is only good if you have someone who cares enough about you to take you to the doctor. I won his confidence and was able to take a troubled child with a discipline problem, and with God’s help turned him into a child eager to learn and able to read, because he felt safe and loved at school. I prayed for that boy daily. In the end, I won his confidence and it cost both of us greatly. You see, if a child confides to the teacher anything that indicates neglect it must be reported or you (the teacher) have commited a crime. So the by now loving and learning student I had, got removed from the only home he knew and placed into “new” foster care. He learned not to trust again.

The point is that here was a person I considered a VERY DESERVING POOR, but because he was a child, no consideration was given to his “personal” needs, just to the physical. Our social service system needs a serious overhaul. They need to learn how to deal with the individual on that level and not lump them as one of many. This can also be said of many of the poor with alcohol or other abuse issues. These are not issues that can be lumped into one catagory except on the most basic level. These are deserving people because for whatever reason they have a problem that needs to be addressed and it needs to be addressed on an individual level.

We have 2 hospitals that specifically treat the poor with NO INSURANCE. If you go to one of those hospitals you will not be billed if you are poor and because they are teaching hospitals they do not overcharge the person with insurance. I choose one closer to my home, where my insurance will be used to pay the bill of someone else, by overcharging me for my life threatening emergency.

I firmly believe that if we stop all people from going to the emergency room for anything other than a life threatening emergency, we will see a huge decline in medical cost. You would be amazed at the # of people who will go to the emergency room for a “COLD”, because they do not have insurance, rather than go to the health department (based on income), or the regular physician $30-75.00 for a basic visit. I think the adults should be refused at the hospital for stuff the doctor can handle in the office, where it is much less costly. This makes sense and is cost effective and leaves the hospital staff time to deal with TRUE EMERGENCIES.

As adults we have some responsibility for ourself and we should not abuse the system. As one of those who is the recipient of the abuse, and having had a family member who tried to use the system correctly, I know that there is NO DEFINITE answer.

I feel that as a parent I have always done my part. I also feel I do my part as a teacher to provide help. I also help with charities, fund raisers and donating to the needy projects, and stocking the needy “pantry” for our parish. To me, it all boils down to responsibility to oneself. I am not saying these people do not deserve help, or are not the “Deserving Poor”, simply that they need to try to help themselves if they want the rest of us to help them.

God tells us, “Love one another as we love ourselves.” What does this mean to us? Does this mean that if we love ourselves enough to have medical coverage we should expect this of others? Does this mean we should want them to have the same care, but not have to pay any price? It is confusing to me, and I do not have the answers. I am a simple person. Maybe someone could help me with this.

Yours in Christ,

 

[stinkcat_14]

You have to be very careful about government poverty statistics. They are mostly about income reported on tax returns.

Actually, most of our poverty statistics comes from the Current Population Survey, which is totally separate from the Internal Revenue Service and the CPS does not use tax return data for its estimates.

 

[scarlet405]

Actually, most of our poverty statistics comes from the Current Population Survey, which is totally separate from the Internal Revenue Service and the CPS does not use tax return data for its estimates.

You know that they also get statistics from local public schools as well. It is kind of like checks and balances, I suppose. The parents have to prove income for their children to qualify for free lunch or for the free and reduced medical coverage. This is another way to document the extent of the poor, but a little more difficult to get stats on because of the privacy issues that involve children.

Does this make sense to anyone?

 

[Trader]

Actually, most of our poverty statistics comes from the Current Population Survey, which is totally separate from the Internal Revenue Service and the CPS does not use tax return data for its estimates.

I don’t want to split hairs, but I have been surveyed several times and they always ask about adjusted gross income. By law tax returns are private and that is a good thing, but the definitions of income are largely those of the IRS and those rules change every year.

I think schedule D of form 1040 changed 9 years in a row. That is why I keep my own spreadsheet current for all my stock and option trades. At the end of the year I copy the totals to schedule D and send them the spreadsheet. It is usually 8-10 pages long and I doubt they ever read it.

The college student whose parents pay $40,000 for her to attend Notre Dame is not counted as having $46,000 in income.

Some government statistics also use the implied rental value of the home you own and count that as income. You can prove almost any argument you care to make with government statistics.

If you want to measure the success of an antipoverty program, do you measure the number of clients served, or the number who no longer need help? We have not come all that far from trying to discover how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

[emily47017]

How about this:

cheryl’s got a lot of options available to her at this time, and not knowing any more details about her situation, i couldn’t say if she’s poor.

does she, like you, have significant stock holdings or other assets that could be jiggered to produce an income or sold to see her through this lean time? what contribution is her sweetie making to their household expenses? what scholarships can she get to either keep her at notre dame or at least enable her to go to a public university? does she have any pre-existing conditions that will disqualify her for health insurance now that her parents have removed her from the family plan? can her employer switch her to full time, or does she have the skills to get a better paying job?

if you mean to ask, “by virtue of her immoral lifestyle is she automatically undeserving of society’s assistance, since her parents have decided she’s unworthy of their assistance,” then my answer is a resounding no. instead the situation illustrates one way that your hierarchy of helpers can break down. if things keep heading downhill for her, and her options have dwindled to food vs. the utility bill, and her family is still unwilling to help her, i don’t care what “loving” excuse they’re leaning on. she’s a fellow human being. she needs a roof over her head and food to live.

However, what happens when this deserving person is someone who is not related to us, someone who has NO control over their life, what happens when that someone is a child?

hi, scarlet! i think we’re on exactly the same page here – i firmly believe that my brethren i don’t know are as much my responsibility as those i do… and if my taxes can be useful in putting together programs that will help, then i would like to see that happen.

as for the ER costs for non-emergency visits, i was under the same impression you were that it was a driving factor in medical costs. so i was surprised to see this study on the PNHP site:

US Emergency Department Costs: no emergency

 

[emily47017]

If you want to measure the success of an antipoverty program, do you measure the number of clients served, or the number who no longer need help? We have not come all that far from trying to discover how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

yeah, this is a tricky one. if you’re just looking at numbers on a page, it’s hard to distinguish people who don’t need assistance anymore from those who were dumped from the rolls because they’d run out of time or the paperwork got too overwhelming. (i had a therapist once who told me she thought being on welfare/social security was a full time job – she was indulging in a little hyperbole, but it definitely keeps you on your toes.)

what seems more useful to me are surveys that measure people’s actual experiences of poverty. have you gone without food for one or more meals this week? have you had your utilities cut off or received warning letters that they would be cut off? that sort of thing.

 

[Sheeniac]

Yes I have, that right wing rhetoric is a ruse to take away the most minimal and hard won protection for those who need it most.

Our beliefs are not “right wing rhetoric”, but thoughts that we try to reconcile with our Catholic beliefs and that will actually work in real life. You are attributing horrible motives to those with whom you do not agree, so why bother talking to someone who is still merely insulting?

I’m not sure what minimal and hard won protections you are talking about. You see, to make an argument here, you need to be a little more specific - you know - facts, policies, ideas etc. AND be prepared to defend them - without too much emotion would be optimal.

 

[scarlet405]

Hello Emily, I am glad to know we are on the same page and that more needs to be done to find ways to help, and not just ignore. By ignoring need, we create even greater issues on down the road, especially for children.

The article you cited, I read it and I don’t know, you can play with statistics anywhere and make them look like you want them too. The only reason I say this is that at the school where I teach students are only allowed so many parent excuses (5 I think) then they must have a doctor’s excuse. Last year was an extremely bad year for absentees in my class. The parents would wait until they were in trouble and take the child to the ER, before they came to school, on that date, with a back dated note from the ER doctor. It was always a trip to the ER, not the doctor. The parents who were trying to help their children get well, not get an excuse made appointments with the doctor. All of this was directly related to insurance. The children who went to the doctor had coverage, those who went to the ER had none. This was not just in my class, but other teachers had problems with it, this was the first year I have actually had to fail a child for a nine weeks because of absentees, and I had to do it with a couple of children. All of these children came from poor homes, with multiple types of family members living there but almost never both of the natural parents. I feel very sure if this survey had been done at our county hospital (the only one in this county), the results would have been far different. Let us not forget that while I am giving that 59X for unexcused absences, I am not enjoying it. I am doing what is required in my job, because no one can tell me that a 6 year old has control over whether or not he/she is at school. We do have a counseling program, and tons of information available to all of the parents about AllKids (state funded BC/BS) and what to do about absences when they happen. This is all for the parents, but the children are the ones still suffering, until we find a program that PUNISHES the parent, the children will continue to suffer. You would not believe how many times I have handed out AllKid forms only to have the returned to me with the parent stating they didn’t know enough about it, and didn’t have time to learn. What is the problem when people will not take 5 mins. out of their life to get free medical coverage for their child.

Now what does this say to us? I teach in a rural low-socioeconmic area, with very little in the way of industry. The parents are not educated and work at low level jobs. For me at least it is my goal to insure that each student is able to read well enough and do math well enough that he/she will not struggle to help bring the drop out level down. I help with physical and emotional needs as I see them, because that is part of my job as a teacher and a human. It is my hope and prayer that these children grow up to be more than their parents can ever expect them to be, but all they have within themselves.

As you can see, I am a “CHILD ADVOCATE”!!! Anything and everything we can do to help the children, will prevent us from having them as life long dependents of the system. I see and feel the same way with people who have unexpected tragedies in their life or substance abuse problems. The biggest thing I see that we need is education. There is NO straightforward answer to this question, I just know where I can help. Maybe if everyone helped in a way they were comfortable with, and helped who they were willing to help more of our problems would be solved. I like to think so. I like to think that this is part of God’s plan, that we “Help One Another”.

 

[Trader]

does she, like you, have significant stock holdings or other assets that could be jiggered to produce an income or sold to see her through this lean time?

You are kidding right? She is a student who will be 21 in September. After today my own stock holdings are less signifcant.

if you mean to ask, “by virtue of her immoral lifestyle is she automatically undeserving of society’s assistance, since her parents have decided she’s unworthy of their assistance,” then my answer is a resounding no. instead the situation illustrates one way that your hierarchy of helpers can break down. if things keep heading downhill for her, and her options have dwindled to food vs. the utility bill, and her family is still unwilling to help her, i don’t care what “loving” excuse they’re leaning on. she’s a fellow human being. she needs a roof over her head and food to live.

“Cheryl” does have lots of alternatives. She has three years of superb college education and can get a better than average full time job. She could attend a much less expensive public university part time, or save her money and complete her degree in a year or two.

I don’t know her boyfriend at all. He may be a dropout with child support obligations or he may be a few years older with a degree and a good job. Pick one. That is not the parents’ objection.

Her parents have not abandoned her. She will still be welcome for holidays. They just will not pay tuition at a Catholic university if she is unwilling to act as practicing Catholic. By the way, Notre Dame still expels students for having opposite sex visitors in the dorms after visiting hours. They have even expelled All American football players for violating this policy.

Weirder still, normallly parents do not have a legal obligation to pay college tuition for their children. College is for adults. However, if the parents are DIVORCED, child support is frequently mandated as long as the child is a full time student. My niece and nephew took five and seven years, respectively to earn their bachelor’s degrees. It would have been easier if their Deadbeat Dad had actually paid. He got his support reduced when he was fired for stealing from his employer.

 

[emily47017]

You are kidding right? She is a student who will be 21 in September. After today my own stock holdings are less signifcant.

i had significant stock holdings when i was 21. sorry you took a hit today; that’s part of the gamble, though, isn’t it? mine was intel, and when it plummeted that was basically the end of my claim to being “old money”.

(my grandma was dying of alzheimer’s when intel was still on the rise. one day she was terribly sick with something or other, vomiting all over the car on the way to the hospital, my mom freaking out and trying not to veer off the road… during a lull between heaves, she turned to my mom and asked brightly, “did you hear what intel did today?”)

Her parents have not abandoned her.

well then where’s the problem? ask me again when she’s two weeks away from eviction with nowhere to go.

 

[Trader]

i had significant stock holdings when i was 21. sorry you took a hit today; that’s part of the gamble, though, isn’t it? mine was intel, and when it plummeted that was basically the end of my claim to being “old money”.

.

I was never old money, just old.

My father’s family was ahead of its time. It managed to go broke before the Great Depression. My great grandfather owned a tavern in Chicago on North Avenue before the Great Fire of 1871. The tavern survived the fire but he wound up will all his relatives living with him and not paying rent. Two of his sons started a business supplying player pianos (Nickelodeons), to taverns all over the city. Then came Prohibition.uch:

 

[emily47017]

Then came Prohibition.uch:

d’oh! :doh2:

hey, my mom told me i got the story of my grandma wrong. she wasn’t throwing up, she was having severe angina and edema, read: congestive heart failure. gah!

 

[Trader]

d’oh! :doh2:

hey, my mom told me i got the story of my grandma wrong. she wasn’t throwing up, she was having severe angina and edema, read: congestive heart failure. gah!

That’s a lot better. No car to clean up.

 

[Hellisreal]

AllKids in my state.

Check out Gov Rod Blagojevich’s site.

It seems that the program has no money now. As we have heard here in the news, could be a government shut down.

No budget.

Teacher’s pensions are not funded.

Hello Emily, I am glad to know we are on the same page and that more needs to be done to find ways to help, and not just ignore. By ignoring need, we create even greater issues on down the road, especially for children.

The article you cited, I read it and I don’t know, you can play with statistics anywhere and make them look like you want them too. The only reason I say this is that at the school where I teach students are only allowed so many parent excuses (5 I think) then they must have a doctor’s excuse. Last year was an extremely bad year for absentees in my class. The parents would wait until they were in trouble and take the child to the ER, before they came to school, on that date, with a back dated note from the ER doctor. It was always a trip to the ER, not the doctor. The parents who were trying to help their children get well, not get an excuse made appointments with the doctor. All of this was directly related to insurance. The children who went to the doctor had coverage, those who went to the ER had none. This was not just in my class, but other teachers had problems with it, this was the first year I have actually had to fail a child for a nine weeks because of absentees, and I had to do it with a couple of children. All of these children came from poor homes, with multiple types of family members living there but almost never both of the natural parents. I feel very sure if this survey had been done at our county hospital (the only one in this county), the results would have been far different. Let us not forget that while I am giving that 59X for unexcused absences, I am not enjoying it. I am doing what is required in my job, because no one can tell me that a 6 year old has control over whether or not he/she is at school. We do have a counseling program, and tons of information available to all of the parents about AllKids (state funded BC/BS) and what to do about absences when they happen. This is all for the parents, but the children are the ones still suffering, until we find a program that PUNISHES the parent, the children will continue to suffer. You would not believe how many times I have handed out AllKid forms only to have the returned to me with the parent stating they didn’t know enough about it, and didn’t have time to learn. What is the problem when people will not take 5 mins. out of their life to get free medical coverage for their child.

Now what does this say to us? I teach in a rural low-socioeconmic area, with very little in the way of industry. The parents are not educated and work at low level jobs. For me at least it is my goal to insure that each student is able to read well enough and do math well enough that he/she will not struggle to help bring the drop out level down. I help with physical and emotional needs as I see them, because that is part of my job as a teacher and a human. It is my hope and prayer that these children grow up to be more than their parents can ever expect them to be, but all they have within themselves.

As you can see, I am a “CHILD ADVOCATE”!!! Anything and everything we can do to help the children, will prevent us from having them as life long dependents of the system. I see and feel the same way with people who have unexpected tragedies in their life or substance abuse problems. The biggest thing I see that we need is education. There is NO straightforward answer to this question, I just know where I can help. Maybe if everyone helped in a way they were comfortable with, and helped who they were willing to help more of our problems would be solved. I like to think so. I like to think that this is part of God’s plan, that we “Help One Another”.