Who can I defer to in the protestant sphere for the correct answer?

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Back to the first page…I always remember from Scripture the Lord saying He is the Bread of Life…John 6:35…

Secondly, RevKevin, you are sounding like a doubting Thomas…let me put my finger in your Body and Blood and then I will believe.

If we did not need faith…the grace of faith saves us, a free gift from God…then Catholics would indeed be practicing the religion that Christ’s former followers visualized…how can this be…to Christ when He told them prior to the Last Supper we would be nurtured by His physical being…and then faith would not be necessary.

Or may be Christ made a mistake, depending too much on the Oral Tradition through His apostles. He should have passed out scrolls explaining exactly and literally how to believe, what to follow…it is all in the book…but then who do we believe…it would come to that…Jesus or a book?

In the next life, there will be no more faith because we will see God.

There will be no more hope, because hope will be fulfilled in God.

But what is here for us today is Love.

I see Christ’s loving action at work to spare us confusion…He creates the scenario of how we will come to His banquet table…here on earth…His kingdom already present…but His other followers imagine cannibalism so they turn away…not being faithful to Him unto the end. He said those who are faithful to the end will be saved.

But the Apostles were, and they were very troubled at hearing Christ’s initial words of eating and drinking of His flesh and blood. But their faith saved them, and at the Last Supper the Apostles encountered the fulfillment of the daily sacrifice of the blood of the lambs at the Jewish temple. Now at the Last Supper they became the new priests.

RevKevin, you use a new Bible put together by 99 evangelical Christians…it was completed about 10 years ago or so. You claim to be a former priest…but with all that education and philosophy, how could you turn away from the seminary with all its explanation of Scripture, psychology, history…and use a recently re-translated Bible whose passages are emotive and reconstructing of past events???

I am having a problem with credibility of your reasoning to change translations. I find the text you use too emotive…
 
joe370 said:
Is the bread at the Lord’s table only bread, or is it the Body of Christ? Zwingli will tell you one thing; Luther, another, and these were the very first leaders of the reformed church that spearhead the reformation. To whom can I defer in the protestant sphere for the correct answer?
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To whom can I defer in the non-Protestant spere for the correct answer about the exact role of the Papacy?
The Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, Oriental Orthodox, Polish National Catholic, Christian Science, Unitarian and other non-Protestant groups do not seem to be able to provide an answer they all agree on.
 
PJM said:
Hi Rev. I see you still quote the Bible you wrote.

In a seperate post you misquoted John 6: 55
"My body is real Food and MY BLOOD is TRAL Drink is the correct version. [It does NOT speak of God’s word as you stated].

Consider thse verses my frend:

**1 John 4: 4 **Little children, you are of God, and have overcome them; for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. **We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error". **

**Jn.12: 34 **This is in the context of the last Supper discourse “20 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives any one whom I send receives me; and he who receives me receives him who sent me."

**2nd. Cor. 9: 13 **“Under the test of this service, you will glorify God by your obedience in acknowledging the gospel of Christ,”

**2nd. Cor.11: 12 **“And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.”

2nd. Peter Chapter One verse 20 -21 *“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “ *
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Sorry, but I am not the Rev whom you are addressing, I am look3467

Blessings, AJ
 
rev_kevin said:
I know what Catholics believe, heck I was one. Where does it say 2000 years ago that he is in the bread?
Where is this knowledge you speak? Can you give me a book and verse where this can be found?
This is my body don’t mean he is in the bread. Where does it say he is in the bread?
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By what authority do you say that He is not?
 
Rightlydivide said:
To whom can I defer in the non-Protestant spere for the correct answer about the exact role of the Papacy?
The Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, Oriental Orthodox, Polish National Catholic, Christian Science, Unitarian and other non-Protestant groups do not seem to be able to provide an answer they all agree on.
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But, with the exception of the Catholic, all of these are either in schism, or heretical. Might as well ask a Buddhist, I say.
 
JonNC said:
I was more counting on the Holy Spirit, but I understand what you’re saying. 😦

Jon
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Just as the rushing wind sound of the Holy Spirit caused the devout men in Jerusalem to gather on the Pentecost, so may we experience such a second Pentecost.
 
I agree…the Holy Spirit is the One who gives us understanding and unity…we have to be open to Him…

There is the veil of language and the perceptions of other people or past events that put obstacles before greater Christian unity. If there is anything more needed in America it is for Christians to be more united and not so fractured. We all suffer from not having greater unity and the celebration of diverse gifts.
 
joe370 said:
Is the bread at the Lord’s Table only bread, or is it the Body of Christ? Zwingli will tell you one thing; Luther, another, and these were the very first leaders of the reformed church that spearhead the reformation. To whom can I defer in the protestant sphere for the correct answer?
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Joe

I’ve been studying the thread and if I’ve missed this question/answer please forgive me.

Why do want to know, what is it you are seeking?

I’ve noted that the Lutheran Church has come up a few times, apparently because they believe in transubstantiation. Since I’ve been attending an LCMS church for some time this interests me because something I’ve noticed in the denomination is the importance placed on the source/authority of any Biblical question and answer. Which is what I gather this thread is primarily, if not manifestly, about. That and the question as to whether or not the Bible is to be always interpreted literally or how much room there is for symbolic meaning? When the people of NT times spoke were they completely literal? When Jesus said I have to pick up my cross and follow Him, I don’t think he meant we would all be picking up literal crosses.

I could be wrong but I doubt I’ll be asked if I believe in transubstantiation at the Judgment Seat or who my personal Biblical source was. I do believe that truth is available to all through the Holy Spirit and that what I did with the gifts given me by God will be the subject.

Any way it’s late and I’m tired, the thread interests me so this is my two cents worth. I’ve written this with the hope that I’ve offended none; have I done so please let me know so we can work it out. For the foregoing, and because I’m a disabled Veteran and a shutin, I badly need to be involved with other believers and CAF is always an excellent place for this.
 
Simeon_Hovey said:
Joe

I’ve been studying the thread and if I’ve missed this question/answer please forgive me.

Why do want to know, what is it you are seeking?

**I’ve noted that the Lutheran Church has come up a few times, apparently because they believe in transubstantiation. **Since I’ve been attending an LCMS church for some time this interests me because something I’ve noticed in the denomination is the importance placed on the source/authority of any Biblical question and answer. Which is what I gather this thread is primarily, if not manifestly, about. That and the question as to whether or not the Bible is to be always interpreted literally or how much room there is for symbolic meaning? When the people of NT times spoke were they completely literal? When Jesus said I have to pick up my cross and follow Him, I don’t think he meant we would all be picking up literal crosses.

I could be wrong but I doubt I’ll be asked if I believe in transubstantiation at the Judgment Seat or who my personal Biblical source was. I do believe that truth is available to all through the Holy Spirit and that what I did with the gifts given me by God will be the subject.

Any way it’s late and I’m tired, the thread interests me so this is my two cents worth. I’ve written this with the hope that I’ve offended none; have I done so please let me know so we can work it out. For the foregoing, and because I’m a disabled Veteran and a shutin, I badly need to be involved with other believers and CAF is always an excellent place for this.
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Just a clarification: Lutherans do not confess the Catholic doctrine of Transubstantiation. What we do confess is that when Christ says the bread **is **His body, we believe it in a literal sense.

Jon
 
The doctrine of scripture and scripture alone is a false Christ. I would suggest avoiding any teaching that comes with such insanity.
 
Hi Simeon…🙂
=Simeon Hovey;7216085]
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Joe

I’ve been studying the thread and if I’ve missed this question/answer please forgive me.

Why do want to know, what is it you are seeking?/]

As a former protestant I was just wondering if there was a way to know the truth regarding the Eucharist. Was there someone, one could defer to in the protestant sphere for some sort of resolution, as there is in the Catholic church. I guess I always knew there wasn’t and I just wondered why that fact didn’t bother other non-Catholics as it use to bother me as a non-Catholic.
[ack]I’ve noted that the Lutheran Church has come up a few times, apparently because they believe in transubstantiation.
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From what I have learned Martin Luther believed in consubstantiation, and present day Lutherans won’t use the word transubstantiation but pretty much believe the catholic position regarding the Eucharist.
Since I’ve been attending an LCMS church for some time this interests me because something I’ve noticed in the denomination is the importance placed on the source/authority of any Biblical question and answer. Which is what I gather this thread is primarily, if not manifestly, about. That and the question as to whether or not the Bible is to be always interpreted literally or how much room there is for symbolic meaning? When the people of NT times spoke were they completely literal? When Jesus said I have to pick up my cross and follow Him, I don’t think he meant we would all be picking up literal crosses.
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I agree with you…
[k]I could be wrong but I doubt I’ll be asked if I believe in transubstantiation at the Judgment Seat or who my personal Biblical source was. I do believe that truth is available to all through the Holy Spirit and that what I did with the gifts given me by God will be the subject./
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Agreed…
black]Any way it’s late and I’m tired, the thread interests me so this is my two cents worth. I’ve written this with the hope that I’ve offended none; have I done so please let me know so we can work it out. For the foregoing, and because I’m a disabled Veteran and a shutin, I badly need to be involved with other believers and CAF is always an excellent place for this./
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You have not offended me or anyone else here at CAF; I promise. 👍 If you ever want to PM me and discuss Jesus, or the CC or any church for that matter, and the teachings of the various churches, that would be great. I am so sorry to hear about your disability friend.

Your brother in Christ!!! 👍
 
=joe370;7218533
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From what I have learned Martin Luther believed in consubstantiation, and present day Lutherans won’t use the word transubstantiation but pretty much believe the catholic position regarding the Eucharist.
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Hi Joe,

Just a bit more clarification.
Luther specifically and clearly rejected the Duns Scotus idea of consubstantiation, and by the way, impanation. Sacramental Union is not consubstantiation.

What Lutheran do believe is that, upon consecration, the bread IS His body, as He said.
And the wine IS His blood. We avoid both transub. and consub. because they speak in metaphysical terms regarding substance and accidents, something we view as explanation of a mystery.

Jon
 
Hey Jon, I got it backwards; sorry about that. 🙂 Martin Luther defined his doctrine as the sacramental union, not consubstantiation. Yes, ML rejected consubstantiation, as he believed it substituted biblical doctrine with a philosophical interpretation. Martin Luther wrote,

Why then should we not much more say in the Supper, “This is my body,” even though bread and body are two distinct substances, and the word “this” indicates the bread? Here, too, out of two kinds of objects a union has taken place, which I shall call a “sacramental union.” because Christ’s body and the bread are given to us as a sacrament. This is not a natural or personal union, as is the case with God and Christ. It is also perhaps a different union from that which the dove has with the Holy Spirit and the flame with the angel, but it is also assuredly a sacramental union.
JonNC said:
Hi Joe,

Just a bit more clarification.
Luther specifically and clearly rejected the Duns Scotus idea of consubstantiation, and by the way, impanation. Sacramental Union is not consubstantiation.

What Lutheran do believe is that, upon consecration, the bread IS His body, as He said.
And the wine IS His blood. We avoid both transub. and consub. because they speak in metaphysical terms regarding substance and accidents, something we view as explanation of a mystery.

Jon
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The Protestant religion is devoid of the Holy Spirit and therefor there is no definitive answer for any question you may have.
 
JonNC said:
Hi Joe,

Just a bit more clarification.
Luther specifically and clearly rejected the Duns Scotus idea of consubstantiation, and by the way, impanation. Sacramental Union is not consubstantiation.

What Lutheran do believe is that, upon consecration, the bread IS His body, as He said.
And the wine IS His blood. We avoid both transub. and consub. because they speak in metaphysical terms regarding substance and accidents, something we view as explanation of a mystery.

Jon
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Jon,

From your post/s, it looks like the difference between your Lutheranism and Catholicism regarding the Eucharist is the theology behind the belief in the Real Prensence, in that how it is achieved?
And the difference in the term given to it, but if one goes back to basics, devoid of name, it is basically the same-Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

Do you also believe in the soul and divinity as part of the Real Presence?
 
agent_grey said:
The Protestant religion is devoid of the Holy Spirit and therefor there is no definitive answer for any question you may have.
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How is the Protestant religion devoid of the Holy Spirit but Protestants have the Holy Spirit? Can you clarify please?
 
agent_grey said:
The Protestant religion is devoid of the Holy Spirit and therefor there is no definitive answer for any question you may have.
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This comment is incorrect on two levels.
First, there is no such thing as “The Protestant Religion”. There is a group of faith communities that fall under the general heading of “Protestant”.
Secoindly, the Catholic Church recognizes within these various protestant communities actions of sanctification and Truth that are only possible in the presence of the Holy Spirit. I call your attention to para 819 of the Catholic Church Catachism.
819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”
Therefore it is incorrect for a catholic to say that protestant faith communities are “devoid” of the Holy Spirit.

That said, this thread has demonstrated that there is no clearly defined “authority” within the protestant community capable of providing a specific and unified answer to the OP’s question.

Peace
James
 
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