Who Deserves to be in Hell?

[frangiuliano115]

**Unrepentant **mass murderers, you mean!

Our God actually allows anyone up there, as long as the person accepts His Truth and His love (both of which leads one to repent their sins).

We are no better than murderers if we insist on doing wrong. For us, our sins might seem little compared to other people’s, but to God our “small” sins are still keeping us from meeting Him.

I agree with what you’ve said re God not being able to be in the presence of sin.

But do you really mean what you say in your last sentence? I mean, could we be careful with what we say since so many readers are reading all this and I think we should, at the least, express our catholic faith.

Small sins don’t keep us from meeting God. Our non-belief in Jesus keeps us from not meeting God.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in HIm should not perish but have everlasting life?

What does that mean then?

Jesus died as a redeemer for us. To redeem means to buy back. Buy back from what?
Satan, Sin (not sins - but they do count too) hell. To buy us back into the original glory which God meant for us before the fall of Adam and Eve.

So now we sin. Any sin is a sin to God. Mortal and Venial. If we love Jesus we won’t want to sin, but sin we will. But we’re sorry for our sins and we’ll be safe in the arms of the Lord as long as He knows we’re sorry. And He does know, you can’t fool God.

So, I don’t know. Am I a stickler for words? I often times feel the correct concept is not being portrayed and I always wonder who else is reading along.

An atheist could NEVER sin (not that it’s possible) but he still isn’t going to heaven to be with God whom he doesn’t even believe exists.

Christians are trusting in Jesus to get them there even if they do sin. In other words, it’s our belief in Jesus that ultimately will get us to God. After all it’s Jesus who opened the gates of heaven after the crucifixion. Before that the just of the O.T. were waiting in Abraham’s Bossom.

Had to get that out of the way. Sorry.

Fran

 

[Alex_H]

**Unrepentant **mass murderers, you mean!

Our God actually allows anyone up there, as long as the person accepts His Truth and His love (both of which leads one to repent their sins).

We are no better than murderers if we insist on doing wrong. For us, our sins might seem little compared to other people’s, but to God our “small” sins are still keeping us from meeting Him.

Interesting. My question is this: If someone professes to be a Christian but goes on to be a mass murderer, will they go to heaven? In the same vein, if someone is a mass murderer and then professes to be a Christian, will they go to heaven?

 

[NovusFidem]

Interesting. My question is this: If someone professes to be a Christian but goes on to be a mass murderer, will they go to heaven? In the same vein, if someone is a mass murderer and then professes to be a Christian, will they go to heaven?

Of course they won’t. To think that just professing is enough to BE a Christian is silly.

To be a Christian you need to BE a Christian, period. It is not just saying “I am Catholic” or “I believe Jesus is my savior” that is going to save me. Basically, if I believe Jesus is my savior I will act according to His teachings (and if I act according to His teachings, I won’t be a mass murderer).

However, those who truly repent their decisions are also following Christ’s teachings. Perhaps they once were murderers, adulterers, abortionists, and n type of sinners, but if they truly repent and seek forgiveness, they will find forgiveness.

Which is why “unrepentant” is important.

As to Fran: no worries! I put “small” under quotation marks precisely to show I was using it to mean something else - what I said is that our “small” sins (that is, the sins we THINK are small compared to things like murder) still keeps us from God.

 

[anonymous_in_fl]

Who deserves to be in Hell? We all do for we “have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”. Who is in hell? I hope I never find out!

 

[frangiuliano115]

Well, I am taking it as a given that God is all-good and trying to come up with an explanation for why most of his sons and daughters are burning in hell in the “eternal now” (taken as another given). From my point of view, it must be either because he is not omnipotent or not omniscient, or maybe both.

Personally, I believe that God is all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing but I also don’t believe in endless hell.

If the Holy Spirit is God or part of God or a person of God, then how can he be grieved? Is he not immutable? Is grief not dependent upon change? Just out of curiosity, what specifically is my offense? What do you believe is my “unpardonable sin?” Go ahead, I welcome your judgment and appreciate your wisdom.

Hi PumpkinCookie,

I always answer any question to the best of my ability if asked in a sincere way. You sound very mad and, of course, I don’t know you so I can’t know why. You sounded like an angry atheist, and I tend not to want to debate, so I just stated what I thought.

Now you say you believe in God but do not believe that hell exists. Okay. This is good. Why? Because it’s not your beliefs that will ultimately save you. There’s no use in debating whether or not hell exists. If you believe that Jesus is God, that He died for the redemption of your sins, and that He was resurrected - that’s all you need to believe!

Now there are catholics who’ll tell you that you have to believe each and every dogma in order to get to heaven. Well, then, I have news for them - there won’t be too many people in heaven. Almost everyone I know doesn’t believe in one doctrine, dogma, or another. If I can’t believe in purgatory - that means I’m going to be damned forever? We do love to put God into that little box, don’t we?

So if you don’t want to believe in hell, that’s okay. What I’m more concerned with is a lack of understanding of your christian faith. I mean, do you have those beliefs mentioned above? I’m just not sure how to address you… I don’t like debating after a certain point; it’s useless.

For instance you say: (to another poster)

“So, grace allows us to do the right thing because without it we can only do wrong things. But, we’re not “robots.” We just require special divine intervention to have the freedom to do the right thing in the first place. But, even if we have been given that freedom, we can still choose not to use it I guess. Does that sound right to you? But, where does the ability to choose to reject grace come from? Is it some kind of “slavery?” If it is slavery and we are coerced, how can we be morally blameworthy?”

This entire pp shows a complete misunderstanding of christianity. OR are you just being sarcastic to get your point across? See what I mean.

I, being a sinner, am in no position to judge anyone. I said that you were commiting the unpardonable sin because the bible speaks of this; Mathew 12:31. The unpardonable sin is simply unbelief. Unbelief cannot be pardoned because forgiveness was not asked. And why ask forgivess of a God you don’t believe in? Grieving the Holy Spirit is when we sin.

What you’re referring to with the omni’s is why does God allow evil, and thus sin, to exist in the first place. So He’s either not Good, and thus doesn’t care what happens to us OR
He’s not omnipotent and he CANNOT stop the evil. ( I had said that His knowing everything has nothing to do with this problem).

So, my dear PumpkinCookie, you’ve hit on the million dollar question. If you find out the answer, let me know!

Because we know this for sure: God is good (or we’re in deep trouble) God is omnipotent (He created all we see). So what gives? We’ll never know the answer because there is no answer for us here on this planet. It’s beyond our understanding. At some point, you just have to accept something that is not understandable.

So I apologize if I misunderstood you. If you care to exchange ideas re the above pp or any of your thoughts, that’s fine with me - but I won’t debate with you; to me that’s a whole different story that will come to no conclusion.

In Christ
Fran

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Hi PumpkinCookie,

I always answer any question to the best of my ability if asked in a sincere way. You sound very mad and, of course, I don’t know you so I can’t know why. You sounded like an angry atheist, and I tend not to want to debate, so I just stated what I thought.

Now you say you believe in God but do not believe that hell exists. Okay. This is good. Why? Because it’s not your beliefs that will ultimately save you. There’s no use in debating whether or not hell exists. If you believe that Jesus is God, that He died for the redemption of your sins, and that He was resurrected - that’s all you need to believe!

The two highlighted sentences are in contradiction. If beliefs don’t save us, why is a belief “all you need?”

Now there are catholics who’ll tell you that you have to believe each and every dogma in order to get to heaven. Well, then, I have news for them - there won’t be too many people in heaven. Almost everyone I know doesn’t believe in one doctrine, dogma, or another. If I can’t believe in purgatory - that means I’m going to be damned forever? We do love to put God into that little box, don’t we?

You are in agreement with most Catholic saints. Pretty much everyone is going to hell, “like snowflakes in a blizzard.” The message of the Church is a message a fear, doom, and gloom, not “good news” at all.

So if you don’t want to believe in hell, that’s okay. What I’m more concerned with is a lack of understanding of your christian faith. I mean, do you have those beliefs mentioned above? I’m just not sure how to address you… I don’t like debating after a certain point; it’s useless.

The one who believes that dialogue and debate are useless has abandoned reason. Ironically, the abandonment of reason is the only thing that makes a debate pointless!

For instance you say: (to another poster)

“So, grace allows us to do the right thing because without it we can only do wrong things. But, we’re not “robots.” We just require special divine intervention to have the freedom to do the right thing in the first place. But, even if we have been given that freedom, we can still choose not to use it I guess. Does that sound right to you? But, where does the ability to choose to reject grace come from? Is it some kind of “slavery?” If it is slavery and we are coerced, how can we be morally blameworthy?”

This entire pp shows a complete misunderstanding of christianity. OR are you just being sarcastic to get your point across? See what I mean.

My understanding of grace comes straight from Augustine, Aquinas, the Council of Trent, the Baltimore Catechism, and the 1993 Catechism. The Catholic church teaches that we are unable to do any good works without grace. The teachings about grace are far more sophisticated and complex than I have time to detail here, but I stand by my assertion above.

I, being a sinner, am in no position to judge anyone. I said that you were commiting the unpardonable sin because the bible speaks of this; Mathew 12:31. The unpardonable sin is simply unbelief. Unbelief cannot be pardoned because forgiveness was not asked. And why ask forgivess of a God you don’t believe in? Grieving the Holy Spirit is when we sin.

The two highlighted sentences are in tension. You have judged me to have committed the unpardonable sin but also maintain that you can’t judge me.

What you’re referring to with the omni’s is why does God allow evil, and thus sin, to exist in the first place. So He’s either not Good, and thus doesn’t care what happens to us OR
He’s not omnipotent and he CANNOT stop the evil. ( I had said that His knowing everything has nothing to do with this problem).

So, my dear PumpkinCookie, you’ve hit on the million dollar question. If you find out the answer, let me know!

The answer is in the book of Job. Only God knows why bad things happen to good people, or at all for that matter.

Because we know this for sure: God is good (or we’re in deep trouble) God is omnipotent (He created all we see). So what gives? We’ll never know the answer because there is no answer for us here on this planet. It’s beyond our understanding. At some point, you just have to accept something that is not understandable.

We should not accept beliefs that are unreasonable however. To do so does violence to our humanity and leads us down the wrong path. God gives wisdom to the humble. To arrogantly assert an irrational belief (hell), and then insist that others believe it without sufficient reason is certainly not humble, in my opinion.

So I apologize if I misunderstood you. If you care to exchange ideas re the above pp or any of your thoughts, that’s fine with me - but I won’t debate with you; to me that’s a whole different story that will come to no conclusion.

In Christ
Fran

I’m a little angry, sure. I used to be extremely angry and vicious about this, and I repent! I’m angry because those who preach hell blaspheme the goodness, wisdom, and power of God. I love God, and to see his name continually dragged through the mud generation after generation, making him an object of either terror or derision, angers me.

I don’t mean to upset you, but I do hope to awaken your reasoning and make you uncomfortable. Go ahead and read Ezekiel chapter 18 and ask yourself the following questions:

Is this the same God of original sin? Is this the same God of eternal hell? Is this the same God of human sacrifice? Is this the same God of the several species of grace?

 

[frangiuliano115]

I’m a little angry, sure. I used to be extremely angry and vicious about this, and I repent! I’m angry because those who preach hell blaspheme the goodness, wisdom, and power of God. I love God, and to see his name continually dragged through the mud generation after generation, making him an object of either terror or derision, angers me.

I don’t mean to upset you, but I do hope to awaken your reasoning and make you uncomfortable. Go ahead and read Ezekiel chapter 18 and ask yourself the following questions:

Is this the same God of original sin? Is this the same God of eternal hell? Is this the same God of human sacrifice? Is this the same God of the several species of grace?

Hi,

Dontcha worry; you won’t upset me.

Ezekiel, Isaiah and Jeremiah are my favorite prophets.

So I see you really like Ezekiel 18. Is it 18:23 that interests you? What exactly is it about this book that attracts you so much?

You see, you’ve misunderstood everything I said in my previous letter. So unless we could sit down with a cup of coffee and discuss this, how is it possible for us to continue?

Make a deal with you. Tomorrow is my granddaughters birthday. This evening we’re preparing. I’m in a different time zone, I would assume from you.

Could you reread my previous post to you because everything you answered me shows there was no understanding.

I’ll go through Ezekiel 18 and see if I could gleen something new from it. It speaks of the the Israelites at the time of the babylonian captivity and how we’re each responsible for our own sins.

If you’re interested…

Fran

 

[Rynard]

Sinners – easy answer.

“For 100,000 that continue in sin until death, scarcely one will be saved.” I can’t find which saint said this.

 

[truetofaith]

I’m a little angry, sure. I used to be extremely angry and vicious about this, and I repent! I’m angry because those who preach hell blaspheme the goodness, wisdom, and power of God. I love God, and to see his name continually dragged through the mud generation after generation, making him an object of either terror or derision, angers me.

I don’t mean to upset you, but I do hope to awaken your reasoning and make you uncomfortable. Go ahead and read Ezekiel chapter 18 and ask yourself the following questions:

Is this the same God of original sin? Is this the same God of eternal hell? Is this the same God of human sacrifice? Is this the same God of the several species of grace?

You must be angry with Jesus because He preached about hell. I gave a couple of places in my earlier post.

 

[littlestsouls2]

Sinners – easy answer.

“For 100,000 that continue in sin until death, scarcely one will be saved.” I can’t find which saint said this.

St. Jerome.

But it is only an opinion. “I saw too that, by prayer and the offering of sufferings for others, many souls that have done no good upon earth may be converted and saved at the hour of death.” (Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich)

 

[987mk]

Hell exists because God is not willing to let His own home be polluted by neer-do-wells and troublemakers.

Then why did he choose to create a flawed being that is populated with neer-do-wells and troublemakers?

If he didn’t want them around, he shouldn’t have created them.

It would be like me getting a puppy and then booting the pup out of the house after it pee’d on the carpet.

 

[eazyduzit]

Then why did he choose to create a flawed being that is populated with neer-do-wells and troublemakers?

If he didn’t want them around, he shouldn’t have created them.

It would be like me getting a puppy and then booting the pup out of the house after it pee’d on the carpet.

When a third of the angels chose to follow Lucifer, God booted them out of heaven.They don’t have an opportunity to be redeemed, but we do. Praise God.

Why did God choose a people who constantly messed up?

 

[frangiuliano115]

for pumpkincookie

originally posted by frangiuliano115 view post
hi pumpkincookie,

i always answer any question to the best of my ability if asked in a sincere way. You sound very mad and, of course, i don’t know you so i can’t know why. You sounded like an angry atheist, and i tend not to want to debate, so i just stated what i thought.

Now you say you believe in god but do not believe that hell exists. Okay. This is good. Why? Because it’s not your beliefs that will ultimately save you. There’s no use in debating whether or not hell exists. If you believe that jesus is god, that he died for the redemption of your sins, and that he was resurrected - that’s all you need to believe!

the two highlighted sentences are in contradiction. If beliefs don’t save us, why is a belief "all you need?"

now there are catholics who’ll tell you that you have to believe each and every dogma in order to get to heaven. Well, then, i have news for them - there won’t be too many people in heaven. Almost everyone i know doesn’t believe in one doctrine, dogma, or another. If i can’t believe in purgatory - that means i’m going to be damned forever? We do love to put god into that little box, don’t we?

**you are in agreement with most catholic saints. Pretty much everyone is going to hell, “like snowflakes in a blizzard.” the message of the church is a message a fear, doom, and gloom, not “good news” at all.
**

so if you don’t want to believe in hell, that’s okay. What i’m more concerned with is a lack of understanding of your christian faith. I mean, do you have those beliefs mentioned above? I’m just not sure how to address you… I don’t like debating after a certain point; it’s useless.

**the one who believes that dialogue and debate are useless has abandoned reason. Ironically, the abandonment of reason is the only thing that makes a debate pointless
**
for instance you say: (to another poster)

“so, grace allows us to do the right thing because without it we can only do wrong things. But, we’re not “robots.” we just require special divine intervention to have the freedom to do the right thing in the first place. But, even if we have been given that freedom, we can still choose not to use it i guess. Does that sound right to you? But, where does the ability to choose to reject grace come from? Is it some kind of “slavery?” if it is slavery and we are coerced, how can we be morally blameworthy?”

this entire pp shows a complete misunderstanding of christianity. Or are you just being sarcastic to get your point across? See what i mean.

**my understanding of grace comes straight from augustine, aquinas, the council of trent, the baltimore catechism, and the 1993 catechism. The catholic church teaches that we are unable to do any good works without grace. The teachings about grace are far more sophisticated and complex than i have time to detail here, but i stand by my assertion above.
**

i, being a sinner, am in no position to judge anyone. I said that you were commiting the unpardonable sin because the bible speaks of this; mathew 12:31. The unpardonable sin is simply unbelief. Unbelief cannot be pardoned because forgiveness was not asked. And why ask forgivess of a god you don’t believe in? Grieving the holy spirit is when we sin.

**the two highlighted sentences are in tension. You have judged me to have committed the unpardonable sin but also maintain that you can’t judge me.
**

what you’re referring to with the omni’s is why does god allow evil, and thus sin, to exist in the first place. So he’s either not good, and thus doesn’t care what happens to us or
he’s not omnipotent and he cannot stop the evil. ( i had said that his knowing everything has nothing to do with this problem).

So, my dear pumpkincookie, you’ve hit on the million dollar question. If you find out the answer, let me know!

the answer is in the book of job. Only god knows why bad things happen to good people, or at all for that matter.

because we know this for sure: God is good (or we’re in deep trouble) god is omnipotent (he created all we see). So what gives? We’ll never know the answer because there is no answer for us here on this planet. It’s beyond our understanding. At some point, you just have to accept something that is not understandable.

we should not accept beliefs that are unreasonable however. To do so does violence to our humanity and leads us down the wrong path. God gives wisdom to the humble. To arrogantly assert an irrational belief (hell), and then insist that others believe it without sufficient reason is certainly not humble, in my opinion.

so i apologize if i misunderstood you. If you care to exchange ideas re the above pp or any of your thoughts, that’s fine with me - but i won’t debate with you; to me that’s a whole different story that will come to no conclusion.

In christ
fran
i’m a little angry, sure. I used to be extremely angry and vicious about this, and i repent! I’m angry because those who preach hell blaspheme the goodness, wisdom, and power of god. I love god, and to see his name continually dragged through the mud generation after generation, making him an object of either terror or derision, angers me.

I don’t mean to upset you, but i do hope to awaken your reasoning and make you uncomfortable. Go ahead and read ezekiel chapter 18 and ask yourself the following questions:

Is this the same god of original sin? Is this the same god of eternal hell? Is this the same god of human sacrifice? Is this the same god of the several species of grace?

one

 

[frangiuliano115]

TWO

I don’t know how to work the quote thingy too well, so you’ll have to string along.

The two sentences re belief are not in opposition. I said that you don’t have to believe a lot of doctrine and dogma to be saved by God. I said that the only thing you do have to believe in is the One He sent: His son Jesus Christ. If you don’t believe in hell you could be wrong, and it could be discussed, however God will not send you to the hell you don’t believe in because you don’t believe it exists. No contradiction.

Re saints. I don’t read the saints - what they personally believed is of no interest to me. I’ve studied a few - I’m not against them. St. Teresa of Avila, St. Francis de Salles. My problem is that we’re not supposed to be getting our beliefs from different saints - this is why you’re all upset to begin with. I think we should stick to the bible - maybe the CCC - I’m not even sure about that but you do need something to make you understand your faith. I like using the Holy Spirit myself and my own rapport with Jesus - but maybe that doesn’t work for everyone? So I’m not putting anyone down.

If you care to discuss what the bible says, fine - if you want to throw the saints at me, I’m not willing. Augustine had his to say, then Anselm contradicted it, then he himself changed his mind on some things before dying. Saints have had visions that are not in conjunction with what I read in the bible, etc etc. People here who know me a bit, know how I feel about this. Just to clarify.

Plus, you should reread my whole pp. It’s the total opposite of how you unerstood it. Your prejudice (pre judgement) affects you too much!

Debating. You don’t sound like a young kid PumpkinCookie. Neither am I. Here’s why I don’t debate: It doesn’t change anybody’s mind! I’ve spoken to many atheists. Some are sincere and you could tell. Some just want to carry on forever. No time or inclination for that. Do I sound like an unreasonable person to you?? How about a reasonable person who doesn’t like to debate at infinitum without good reason?

Grace. No need for you to explain grace to me. One quick question: Do you think God gives grace even to unbelievers? And that whole pp I quoted from a previous post of yours requires an answer all to itself. If you understand grace so well, how come your perception of it is so skewed?? And the problem with understanding free will… Once again, are you just being sarcastic?

Judging you. Much confusion about judging. Judge not lest ye be judged. OR if you see a brother sinning, correct him. Which is it? Mathew 7:1 and Galatians 6:1

We are not to judge others in the sense that how can we know if a BROTHER is lost or not. We are not to judge in this way. Only God can judge. On the other hand if someone blasphemes God or the Holy Spirit I have no doubt of the judgement since the word of God tell me this. I can say it if in discussion. And if we see a brother sinning - a whole different matter - we should go to him, but no one of us does this anymore unless it’s someone in the family or something comes up in discussion.

Job: Okay! We agree on something. Only God knows why bad things happen. You could blame it on evil on original sin the sin nature, whatever - when you get right down to the SOURCE, there is no answer.

Not accepting unreasonable beliefs. I agree with your statement; however, how is believing in hell unreasonable? Didn’t Jesus speak about it a lot? Do you believe in the New Testament? Do you not believe Jesus knew what He was talking about?

I do think that some people think about hell too much. I do think that some people are too legalistic and don’t understand grace or the sacrifice of the Lord and its implications. I do agree with you that making God a “thing of terror” is horrible when you think of all He’s done for us. But let me ask you this then: Where do you suppose Hitler is? In the same place Mother Teresa is? Just using extremes as examples and let’s assume Hitler didn’t repent at the last moment.

I read Ezekiel 18. I don’t get where your coming from. It speaks about doing good and doing bad, we’re all responsible for our own sins, death and life. I don’t get it, sorry. It’s VERY legalistic!

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Then why did he choose to create a flawed being that is populated with neer-do-wells and troublemakers?

If he didn’t want them around, he shouldn’t have created them.

It would be like me getting a puppy and then booting the pup out of the house after it pee’d on the carpet.

We’re not puppies.

Did God create a flawed being? Or did we choose do become flawed?

Fran

 

[NovusFidem]

Then why did he choose to create a flawed being that is populated with neer-do-wells and troublemakers?

If he didn’t want them around, he shouldn’t have created them.

It would be like me getting a puppy and then booting the pup out of the house after it pee’d on the carpet.

He created us like that so that we would be capable of love and loving Him.

Think of a robot. You can create one and program it to do a series of “good” things, like helping others, smiling, and praying for you. But those things are only good because YOU deem them good, and the robot only does them because that’s what you programmed it to do.

Is the robot loving you, by doing what you tell it to do? No, it is not. It doesn’t love you, it only follows its programming.

God wanted something far more than a robot. He wanted this “robot” to be capable of love. But love can’t be programmed; if the only choice you give to another person is to love you, then he won’t be loving you, he will only be doing what he **can **do. “Programming love” is like telling a child to pet the dog: she’s only doing what you asked of her, and not loving the dog.

For love to exist, it MUST be a choice. And for a CHOICE to exist, it must have more than one option.

You could say the previous version of what God wanted were the angels. They have free will like us, but their choice is permanent: they choose to love God, or they choose to betray Him. Lucifer, for example, choose to not love God. St.Michael Archangel choose to love Him.

That seems good and all, but think from the point of view of God: Lucifer can never repent. His choice was permanent (as angels live outside of time, and thus, cannot be changed with time), so now he will never love God.

But us, humans, while we can never be always good like angels, we also can never be always bad like demons. We can be changed. And that is good! I mean, now we have a chance of loving God, differently from Lucifer.

Where you see a flawed being, God sees an improvement.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Hi,

Dontcha worry; you won’t upset me.

Ezekiel, Isaiah and Jeremiah are my favorite prophets.

So I see you really like Ezekiel 18. Is it 18:23 that interests you? What exactly is it about this book that attracts you so much?

You see, you’ve misunderstood everything I said in my previous letter. So unless we could sit down with a cup of coffee and discuss this, how is it possible for us to continue?

Make a deal with you. Tomorrow is my granddaughters birthday. This evening we’re preparing. I’m in a different time zone, I would assume from you.

Could you reread my previous post to you because everything you answered me shows there was no understanding.

I’ll go through Ezekiel 18 and see if I could gleen something new from it. It speaks of the the Israelites at the time of the babylonian captivity and how we’re each responsible for our own sins.

If you’re interested…

Fran

Happy Birthday to your granddaughter!

I re-read your post. God’s omniscience is involved in this dilemma. If he is not omniscient, then he has an “out.” For instance, imagine that God doesn’t know who is going to end up in hell forever. If he doesn’t know, then we can’t blame him for creating them in the first place since he didn’t know how it was going to turn out. He can’t be responsible for things that are either of out his control (but then he is not omnipotent) or of which he has no knowledge (but then he is not omniscient). I ignored this point previously, but I hope this explanation makes it more clear.

Ezekiel’s message is of course death and catastrophe to the unfaithful Israelites of his time, but chapter 18 is a great message of hope for humanity. The prophet tells us that 1) God does not punish children for the sins of their fathers and vice-versa and 2) the ultimate punishment for sin is death (not eternal torture). Also, the prophet tells us that it is within our power to repent and to do what is right. These are all good things! No original sin, no slavery to sin unless we’re given miraculous grace, and no eternal hell. Praise God for he is good, he does not punish children for their father’s sins, he does not create us as slaves to sin, and he does not punish his enemies relentlessly and endlessly. His justice is swift, decisive, and final. May we never be on the wrong side of his judgment!

 

[PumpkinCookie]

You must be angry with Jesus because He preached about hell. I gave a couple of places in my earlier post.

You think Jesus preached about eternal hell because the 4th century church thought the translators thought he did.

I see Jesus as an out-spoken charismatic rabbi who considered himself to be a prophet. Everything else is cultural evolution and interpretation. I respect the rabbi Jesus and think of his teachings often.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

TWO

I don’t know how to work the quote thingy too well, so you’ll have to string along.

That’s OK, I like to reply “in line” anyway.

The two sentences re belief are not in opposition. I said that you don’t have to believe a lot of doctrine and dogma to be saved by God. I said that the only thing you do have to believe in is the One He sent: His son Jesus Christ. If you don’t believe in hell you could be wrong, and it could be discussed, however God will not send you to the hell you don’t believe in because you don’t believe it exists. No contradiction.

How can salvation be predicated upon belief? Beliefs are not voluntary. Is it right to punish or reward for that which is involuntary?

Re saints. I don’t read the saints - what they personally believed is of no interest to me. I’ve studied a few - I’m not against them. St. Teresa of Avila, St. Francis de Salles. My problem is that we’re not supposed to be getting our beliefs from different saints - this is why you’re all upset to begin with. I think we should stick to the bible - maybe the CCC - I’m not even sure about that but you do need something to make you understand your faith. I like using the Holy Spirit myself and my own rapport with Jesus - but maybe that doesn’t work for everyone? So I’m not putting anyone down.

If you care to discuss what the bible says, fine - if you want to throw the saints at me, I’m not willing. Augustine had his to say, then Anselm contradicted it, then he himself changed his mind on some things before dying. Saints have had visions that are not in conjunction with what I read in the bible, etc etc. People here who know me a bit, know how I feel about this. Just to clarify.

I don’t believe what many Catholic saints say either. I suppose many of them were severely mentally ill. I’m sad for the sheer amount of suffering they seem to have undergone!

Plus, you should reread my whole pp. It’s the total opposite of how you unerstood it. Your prejudice (pre judgement) affects you too much!

I’m not sure what you mean. I am definitely prejudiced about many things.

Debating. You don’t sound like a young kid PumpkinCookie. Neither am I. Here’s why I don’t debate: It doesn’t change anybody’s mind! I’ve spoken to many atheists. Some are sincere and you could tell. Some just want to carry on forever. No time or inclination for that. Do I sound like an unreasonable person to you?? How about a reasonable person who doesn’t like to debate at infinitum without good reason?

Fair enough. I used to be a serious traditionalist Catholic. I changed my mind through debate, research, reflection, and prayer. Hell is a particularly damaging belief though, so I argue against it because I think it is untrue, harmful, and blasphemous. Maybe I’m wrong, my mind is open to change.

Grace. No need for you to explain grace to me. One quick question: Do you think God gives grace even to unbelievers? And that whole pp I quoted from a previous post of yours requires an answer all to itself. If you understand grace so well, how come your perception of it is so skewed?? And the problem with understanding free will… Once again, are you just being sarcastic?

I don’t believe in grace as is it formulated by the Church. I think we all have the power to do what is right and we all have the power to disobey, by nature. I am being sarcastic (previously). I think the Catholic notion of free will is self-contradictory and self-destructive.

Judging you. Much confusion about judging. Judge not lest ye be judged. OR if you see a brother sinning, correct him. Which is it? Mathew 7:1 and Galatians 6:1

We are not to judge others in the sense that how can we know if a BROTHER is lost or not. We are not to judge in this way. Only God can judge. On the other hand if someone blasphemes God or the Holy Spirit I have no doubt of the judgement since the word of God tell me this. I can say it if in discussion. And if we see a brother sinning - a whole different matter - we should go to him, but no one of us does this anymore unless it’s someone in the family or something comes up in discussion.

I am fine with you judging me, don’t worry about it. I appreciate candor and honesty.

Job: Okay! We agree on something. Only God knows why bad things happen. You could blame it on evil on original sin the sin nature, whatever - when you get right down to the SOURCE, there is no answer.

There is an answer, but only God knows it. Our minds can’t handle it, according to the author of Job. I agree.

Not accepting unreasonable beliefs. I agree with your statement; however, how is believing in hell unreasonable? Didn’t Jesus speak about it a lot? Do you believe in the New Testament? Do you not believe Jesus knew what He was talking about?

I believe eternal hell is intrinsically unreasonable and self-contradictory, given the axiomatic beliefs of Christianity. There is a thread in the philosophy forum called “Is eternal suffering pointless?” where I have painstakingly spelled this out in many different ways. Millions or possibly tens of millions of people have had the same insights. Some people think Jesus spoke about it, but it could be the result of translation error, among other things. I do not believe the New Testament is inspired by God. I do not believe the Catholic Church knows what it is talking about, and I have no idea what Jesus himself thought or talked about. I have only a fourth hand account of what he said to go on.

CONT…

 

[PumpkinCookie]

CONT…

I do think that some people think about hell too much. I do think that some people are too legalistic and don’t understand grace or the sacrifice of the Lord and its implications. I do agree with you that making God a “thing of terror” is horrible when you think of all He’s done for us. But let me ask you this then: Where do you suppose Hitler is? In the same place Mother Teresa is? Just using extremes as examples and let’s assume Hitler didn’t repent at the last moment.

I think both Hitler and Mother Teresa are in the same place: the grave. I also believe God will give them both precisely what they deserve at the end of the world. I do not think it will be the same thing, but I also believe neither of them could possibly deserve endless hell.

I read Ezekiel 18. I don’t get where your coming from. It speaks about doing good and doing bad, we’re all responsible for our own sins, death and life. I don’t get it, sorry. It’s VERY legalistic!

I explained this in my other post to you.

Fran