Who do you say that I am as a Muslim?

[underdog]

And yet you cannot see how Muhammed could be the wolf in sheep’s clothing?

Ralph,

It sure seems you want it both ways. You posted the Muslims have the Spirit of God, yet you state that Muhammed is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. What’s up with that?

1 Corinthians 2

Wisdom from the Spirit

Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[ralphinal]

Ralph,

It sure seems you want it both ways. You posted the Muslims have the Spirit of God, yet you state that Muhammed is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. What’s up with that?

1 Corinthians 2

Wisdom from the Spirit

Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

I cannot deny that God has the ability to impart grace upon whom he chooses. Can you?

I did not ever EVER say that Muslims have anything from God because they are Muslims. I am saying that there may be Muslims, who by the Mercy of God, shall be saved and may be counted as rightous.

Are you saying that God does not have that authority?

 

[ralphinal]

Are you saying that the Catholic Church teaches that non-Christians can have the Spirit of God? I believe the Bible clearly teaches that we receive the Spirt of God upon faith in Christ as a deposit of faith. Please help me understand because the Spirt of God is just another name of God the Holy Spirit, or Spirit of Christ.

Ephesians 1

Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [2] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known [3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Romans 5

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith** into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.**

I love how you ask my opinion than make it Catholic dogma. I said that I beleive that some may have the Spirit working in them. I never said that the Church teaches that.

Sometimes, I think your hate makes you blind.

 

[underdog]

Some do, some do not. However, it should be understood that they have the same level of "Spirit of GOd’ as a rightous gentil would in the Bible. That is to say, not like a baptised Christian or even a Jew.

For those apparent Muslims that you think have the Spirit of God, are they in the Spirit or are they in the flesh? How do you reconcile your statement with Romans 8 and life in the Spirt? Can an apparent Muslim walk in the Spirit without faith in Jesus Christ?

Romans 8

Life in the Spirit

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [1] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you [2] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, [3] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[ralphinal]

For those apparent Muslim whom you think have the Spirit of God, are they in the Spirit or are they in the flesh? How do you reconcile your statement with Romans 8 and life int the Spirt?

Romans 8

Life in the Spirit

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [1] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you [2] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, [3] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

I aksed you a question. Can God grant grace upon whomever he wishes?

Yes or No.

 

[underdog]

I aksed you a question. Can God grant grace upon whomever he wishes?

Yes or No.

Grace is a very broad term. All human beings receive common grace each and every day. We are all alive by the grace of God because God is the creator and sustainer of all life. What kind of grace are you talking about?

Matthew 5:45
For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

[ralphinal]

Grace is a very broad term. All human beings receive common grace each and every day. We are all alive by the grace of God because God is the creator and sustainer of all life. What kind of grace are you talking about?

Matthew 5:45
For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Can God show mercy upon a non-Christian and they then be saved?

 

[underdog]

I love how you ask my opinion than make it Catholic dogma. I said that I beleive that some may have the Spirit working in them. I never said that the Church teaches that.

Sometimes, I think your hate makes you blind.

I’m just confused in what Catholics are allowed to believe. I didn’t know Catholic Christians have an option to believe differently than official Roman Catholic doctrine. I thought the Magisterium decides what is truth on issues like this. Can Catholic Christians believe differently in regards to Muslims than what the church teaches?

 

[ralphinal]

I’m just confused in what Catholics are allowed to believe. I didn’t know Catholic Christians have an option to believe differently than official Roman Catholic doctrine. I thought the Magisterium decides what is truth on issues like this. Can Catholic Christians believe differently in regards to Muslims than what the church teaches?

No, we cannot if it is a defined dogma. If it is not dogmatic, I have freedom to disagree.

What I am trying to explain to you is that Muslims intend and profess to worshiping the same God as the Jews and as us. However, when we look at Allah, we can see that there are major issues that make him different. That does not change the fact that God may show mercy to whomever he chooses.

Do you accept that GOd can show mercy to whomever he chooses?

 

[underdog]

Can God show mercy upon a non-Christian and they then be saved?

God’s salvation is based on justice being served. He is just and the justifer at the same time. God can only show mercy together with being just. It would be unjust for God to show mercy apart from being just, because that would make God immoral and unjust.

Please let me explain this is human terms. Let’s say there was a serial killer who murdered innocent people for 30 years. Finallly they caught the serial killer and he confessed to the numerous murders. During the trial, the jury convicts the killer on all charges of first degree murder. The judge comes back with the penalty for his crime. He tells everyone that the killer deserves the death penalty but I will be merciful and let him go because I AM the judge. We would all cry out that the judge was insane, unjust and corupt. The judge would lose all honor and respect of the people for his injustice. We would demand that the judge to step down from his authority because he was Incompetent.

Now let’s change this senario just a little bit. The judge comes back with the penalty for the crimes of mass murders. He tells everyone that the killer deserves the death peanlty, and justice will be served. But I want to show mercy to this sinner because I am a mericful and loving judge. Therefore,I have sent my one and only son whom I love to pay the penalty of the crimes of the killer. My Son will be executed for the crimes commited by the killer on his behalf. Justice we be served and I will show mercy who I want to show mercy to.

Here is the same truth in the Scriptures:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. - Rom 3

God would be unjust to show mercy to Muslims who do not have the Son to pay for their sins. Justice has to be served for sin, either by Jesus Christ or the sinner.

 

[underdog]

No, we cannot if it is a defined dogma. If it is not dogmatic, I have freedom to disagree.

What I am trying to explain to you is that Muslims intend and profess to worshiping the same God as the Jews and as us. However, when we look at Allah, we can see that there are major issues that make him different. That does not change the fact that God may show mercy to whomever he chooses.

Do you accept that GOd can show mercy to whomever he chooses?

Please see my answer above.

 

[planten]

Grace is a very broad term. All human beings receive common grace each and every day. We are all alive by the grace of God because God is the creator and sustainer of all life. What kind of grace are you talking about?

Matthew 5:45
For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

**Underdog, Very wise words. We have same in Quran and even more than that. please see below:

Allah is 1. Rabb, 2. Al- Rehman, 3.Al-Raheem, 4.Al-Maalik. That means God is Rabb, Al- Rehman, Al-Raheem, Al-Maalik.

Rabb: The originator, creator, sustainer, developer, maintainer of all things in the Universe. This attribute of God covers all things including ideas and diseases and cures and reptiles and planets… Nothing is left out. God is the Rabb of all things. This is the biggest set (Main set).

Al-Rehman: This is attribute of mercy. It concerns the living things only, plants, birds and beasts including mankind. they may be believers or disbelievers, Hindu, Jew or a Christian or a Muslim. This attribute of the Mercy of God covers (Helps) all of them, as has been described above in the post of underdog. It covers the atheists too. They also receive from the mercy of God under this attribute.
Please remember that this set of creation (living things) benefit from the previous attribute of Rabb too. Living things are a subset of all things.

Al-Raheem: This an attribute of special Mercy. It concerns the mankind only. Other living speciies are excluded from this attribute of mercy. This attribute helps the believers only, may they be a Jew, a christian, a budhist or a Hindu or a Muslim, they all benefit from this attribute of God. Atheists do not benefit from this mercy. It concerns those who believe in God and pray to him, whatever their faith. They get some special treatment from God due to their belief and prayers.

These believing people benefit from the attribute Rabb and Al-Rehman too. These are the subset of all living things.
Some of the impossible things become possible for them by the Grace of God.

Al-Maalik: The Owner, The Master, it is the special highest attribute for the limited class (Few). God is not a judge of the day of Judgement. But He is the Owner, the Master of the day of judgement. Judges are never free. They are always given a law and they are bound to decide matters according to (and within the limits of) those laws. The common judges have no liberty.

God is the Maalik, is free to decide what He likes and may reward any one more than he deserves. this attibute is for the very special people (Men and women) who are prophets, messengers of God, who are saints and friends (Aulia) of God. Surely such persons are only from the previous set of believers. So these people benefit from all the four attributes mentioned here.**

 

[ralphinal]

God’s salvation is based on justice being served. He is just and the justifer at the same time. God can only show mercy together with being just. It would be unjust for God to show mercy apart from being just, because that would make God immoral and unjust.

Please let me explain this is human terms. Let’s say there was a serial killer who murdered innocent people for 30 years. Finallly they caught the serial killer and he confessed to the numerous murders. During the trial, the jury convicts the killer on all charges of first degree murder. The judge comes back with the penalty for his crime. He tells everyone that the killer deserves the death penalty but I will be merciful and let him go because I AM the judge. We would all cry out that the judge was insane, unjust and corupt. The judge would lose all honor and respect of the people for his injustice. We would demand that the judge to step down from his authority because he was Incompetent.

Now let’s change this senario just a little bit. The judge comes back with the penalty for the crimes of mass murders. He tells everyone that the killer deserves the death peanlty, and justice will be served. But I want to show mercy to this sinner because I am a mericful and loving judge. Therefore,I have sent my one and only son whom I love to pay the penalty of the crimes of the killer. My Son will be executed for the crimes commited by the killer on his behalf. Justice we be served and I will show mercy who I want to show mercy to.

Here is the same truth in the Scriptures:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. - Rom 3

God would be unjust to show mercy to Muslims who do not have the Son to pay for their sins. Justice has to be served for sin, either by Jesus Christ or the sinner.

Jesus told us a story of a man hiring workers. Some were hired in the morning, some mid day, some in the afternoon, and some in the evening…

 

[underdog]

Jesus told us a story of a man hiring workers. Some were hired in the morning, some mid day, some in the afternoon, and some in the evening…

I don’t see the connection, please help me understand your point in regards to Muslims who do not believe in the biblical Jesus Christ.

 

[ralphinal]

I don’t see the connection, please help me understand your point in regards to Muslims who do not believe in the biblical Jesus Christ.

To man, God may not be fair. However, God is fair, just and merciful.

IN the parable I mentioned, the landowner hired people at different times, then paid them all the same wage. Those who were hired first complained.

If God chooses to allow Muslims to be saved, he can.

Do all Muslims who had no chance to learn of Christ go to hell?

All native Americans?

All Asians?

 

[underdog]

To man, God may not be fair. However, God is fair, just and merciful.

IN the parable I mentioned, the landowner hired people at different times, then paid them all the same wage. Those who were hired first complained.

If God chooses to allow Muslims to be saved, he can.

Do all Muslims who had no chance to learn of Christ go to hell?

All native Americans?

All Asians?

Christ died for all peoples. He died for all tongues, tribes, and nations. You will find native american Christians. You will find Asian Christians in every Asian country where the gospel has been proclaimed and preached. You will not find Muslim Christians because Muslim is a religion and not a people group. I think you have confused the two. Here is why God cannot show mercy to Muslims. He has to be just in his mercy.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,* through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. - Rom 3*

 

[ralphinal]

Christ died for all peoples. He died for all tongues, tribes, and nations. You will find native american Christians. You will find Asian Christians in every Asian country where the gospel has been proclaimed and preached. You will not find Muslim Christians because Muslim is a religion and not a people group. I think you have confused the two. Here is why God cannot show mercy to Muslims. He has to be just in his mercy.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,* through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. - Rom 3*

So an Aztec from 400 AD may be in heaven now?

 

[underdog]

So an Aztec from 400 AD may be in heaven now?

Did they hear the gospel and receive Jesus Christ through faith? Are you saying people who died without hearing the gospel have a better chance in being in Heaven than those who heard the gospel and rejected it? Doesn’t that change the good news to accountable bad news? Reflect on Romans 10, and how the gospel of Christ is always considered great good news to sinful mankind. Do you understand my passion? We need to keep the gospel to be the greatest good news to all mankind. John 3 tells us that Jesus did not come to condemned the world but to save the world. The world was already condemned before Christ came. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a rescue mission for our already condemned condition. Look on this one verse.

Matthew 1:21

She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

Save means rescue and not condemnation. We are on the Titanic sinking toward the bottom of the sea. God sends the coast guard to save us, and He does not send the battleship destroyer to sink us, because we are already sinking.

 

[underdog]

God didn’t even save all the Israelites. Please read Romans chapter 9, 10, and 11. God had a remanant chosen by grace for His vessel of mercy within the Old Testament Church. There are accounts of non-jews being saved such as Ruth and Rahab, as well as others. Didn’t God instruct the Israelites to destroy the pagans, men, women and children too? God’s justice is right and severe, consider the flood.

 

[underdog]

You are trying to make God into what you want Him to be like. The alternative is to learn about God as He revealed Himself to be like in His Word. What part do you think cannot be supported in the Scriptures?