Who do you say that I am as a Muslim?

[underdog]

These are mere opinions and not supported by divine revelation. So in your view, what happens to Protestants?

 

[Gatell]

You are trying to make God into what you want Him to be like. The alternative is to learn about God as He revealed Himself to be like in His Word. What part do you think cannot be supported in the Scriptures?

Hello:

I have always had a problem with the line of thinking that people who, through no fault of their own, missed the Gospel and end up in Hell. That is not in line with God, our Father.

And just because one hears the Gospel does not mean that one understands it. For example, a child born into a Hindu family will hear the Gospel a million times and reject it due to his parents teachings.

This my friends is why we need to leave the judging to God. The Church prays for those people and claims them as her own, event though in an imperfect communion.

The Aztec born in 400 AD did not choose to ignore Christ, whatever his fate, we will not know. We trust in the mercy of God, our Father, with such matters. In either case, the Aztec would prefer to be judged by God the Father rather than by God the Master.

God Bless,

Victor

 

[cathopologist]

Didn’t God instruct the Israelites to destroy the pagans, men, women and children too? God’s justice is right and severe, consider the flood.

Yes, but that is because they chose to rebel God, not because they were born pagans or did not know about God of the Israelites. Would you condemn yourself to hell if you were born an Aztec in 400 AD?

 

[underdog]

Hello:

I have always had a problem with the line of thinking that people who, through no fault of their own, missed the Gospel and end up in Hell. That is not in line with God, our Father.

And just because one hears the Gospel does not mean that one understands it. For example, a child born into a Hindu family will hear the Gospel a million times and reject it due to his parents teachings.

This my friends is why we need to leave the judging to God. The Church prays for those people and claims them as her own, event though in an imperfect communion.

The Aztec born in 400 AD did not choose to ignore Christ, whatever his fate, we will not know. We trust in the mercy of God, our Father, with such matters. In either case, the Aztec would prefer to be judged by God the Father rather than by God the Master.

God Bless,

Victor

Hi Victor,

I agree that God will judge all. But who will not be found guilty as a sinner in all mankind, regardless of hearing and receivng the gospel? How many did God judge in the Old Testament without hearing about the God is the Israelites? What happened to all of the men, women, and children who perished in the flood? You seem to say the Aztecs will be found not guilty as sinners. Why did the Catholic Church spend so much energy in Central and South America as missionaries? Was there work done in vain as they brought the good news to them? I think Catholic have difficulties, because as we know, Catholicism is not really biblical in many of her doctrinal positions. Please make a bibilcal case on how you thinks sinners who have not heard the gospel will be shown mercy.

 

[underdog]

Yes, but that is because they chose to rebel God, not because they were born pagans or did not know about God of the Israelites. Would you condemn yourself to hell if you were born an Aztec in 400 AD?

Did Adam represent the Aztecs and the rest of mankind in His act of disobedience? I know the Catholic Chruch believes in original sin and the eternal consequences of those who die apart from Christ. Why baptize your infants if does not infuse justifying grace? Who needs to be justified but condemned sinners.

 

[underdog]

So an Aztec from 400 AD may be in heaven now?

Maybe you can say that God applied the person and work of an Aztec without hearing the gospel, and the name of Christ? I’m not saying that, but that’s the best you can say as a Christian. If you choose this position, you are implying that a person does not need to believe in Christ to be saved by Christ, correct? I believe certain infants who die receive the work of Christ upon death. The problem with the Aztecs, they all have sinned against God; therefore they all need a savior. It’s the same with the Muslims and Jews.

 

[Gatell]

Hi Victor,

I agree that God will judge all. But who will not be found guilty as a sinner in all mankind, regardless of hearing and receivng the gospel? How many did God judge in the Old Testament without hearing about the God is the Israelites? What happened to all of the men, women, and children who perished in the flood? You seem to say the Aztecs will be found not guilty as sinners. Why did the Catholic Church spend so much energy in Central and South America as missionaries? Was there work done in vain as they brought the good news to them? I think Catholic have difficulties, because as we know, Catholicism is not really biblical in many of her doctrinal positions. Please make a bibilcal case on how you thinks sinners who have not heard the gospel will be shown mercy.

Hi Underdog:

The Church is missionary, therefore her mission is to evangelize. This has been done since day one. That is the reason for the attention to South and Central America as well as all other countries throughout the centuries.

As to your statement that Catholicsism is not really biblical, I would say that it probably is out of the scope of this thread, but remember that the Bible is a Catholic work, and we have it because of the Catholic Church, and the test for Scripture was actually the Tradition of the Catholic Church. What is contained in the Bible is there because it was in line with what the Church taught and believed. Not the other way around.

I don’t say that there is mercy for those who don’t accept Jesus, I say that we don’t know, and the Church does not know. What does it mean to “not accept Jesus”? Would the person have accepted Jesus if given the opportunity? It is a mystery known only to God. Even when the Church excomunicates someone, she still does not affirm his/her damnation, and continues to pray for them. The Church trusts in the mercy and fairness of God.

However, there may be examples in scripture that show mercy without baptism, for example the Good Thief, the characters of the Old Testament, they clearly did not accept Christ as personal lord and savior, yet they were seen with God. And what did Jesus do when He visited Hell after His death? Who did he go there to see, or perhaps save? Perhaps others here with more biblical knowledge can assist you in that question.

God Bless,

Victor

 

[underdog]

Hi Underdog:

The Church is missionary, therefore her mission is to evangelize. This has been done since day one. That is the reason for the attention to South and Central America as well as all other countries throughout the centuries.

As to your statement that Catholicsism is not really biblical, I would say that it probably is out of the scope of this thread, but remember that the Bible is a Catholic work, and we have it because of the Catholic Church, and the test for Scripture was actually the Tradition of the Catholic Church. What is contained in the Bible is there because it was in line with what the Church taught and believed. Not the other way around.

I don’t say that there is mercy for those who don’t accept Jesus, I say that we don’t know, and the Church does not know. What does it mean to “not accept Jesus”? Would the person have accepted Jesus if given the opportunity? It is a mystery known only to God. Even when the Church excomunicates someone, she still does not affirm his/her damnation, and continues to pray for them. The Church trusts in the mercy and fairness of God.

However, there may be examples in scripture that show mercy without baptism, for example the Good Thief, the characters of the Old Testament, they clearly did not accept Christ as personal lord and savior, yet they were seen with God. And what did Jesus do when He visited Hell after His death? Who did he go there to see, or perhaps save? Perhaps others here with more biblical knowledge can assist you in that question.

God Bless,

Victor

Thanks Victor. Don’t I know you? Are you from Anahiem, CA near Catholic Answers? As a refreshers, I believe in baptism not done by hands of men, but one done by the Spirit of God. I believe the Bible is not a Catholic work, but rather God-breathed revelation from God Himself. If the Bible is a Catholic work, did the Catholic Church give us the Old Testament too? I think your position is semi-pelagius at best, since you seem to imply that God is obligated to present a salvation opportunity to all individuals. Thanks for your postings, because it is good to challenge each other with the purpose to help each one of us to see Christ better… to the praise and glory of God. The gospel needs to remain the great good news of God, and cannot be changed to be a condemning message.

 

[Gatell]

Thanks Victor. Don’t I know you? Are you from Anahiem, CA near Catholic Answers? As a refreshers, I believe in baptism not done by hands of men, but one done by the Spirit of God. I believe the Bible is not a Catholic work, but rather God-breathed revelation from God Himself. If the Bible is a Catholic work, did the Catholic Church give us the Old Testament too? I think your position is semi-pelagius at best, since you seem to imply that God is obligated to present a salvation opportunity to all individuals. Thanks for your postings, because it is good to challenge each other with the purpose to help each one of us to see Christ better… to the praise and glory of God. The gospel needs to remain the great good news of God, and cannot be changed to be a condemning message.

No that is not me, I am in South Florida.

The Scriptures are God breathed and inspired, but so is His Church. And that Church was the author of Sacred Scripture. And when real men convened to examin those books being used, they used the Sacred Tradition of The Church as a test for that scripture. Perhaps it is in your understanding of what The Church is that poses a stumbling block for believing that The Church was the test for scripture. Remember we see The Church as the Body of Christ. In that capacity, she is fully capable, and has the authority to test scripture.

By the way, The Church did not give us the Old Testament, but chose to include it. That helps to make the point, doesn’t it? Perhaps you can explain to me how the Bible came about. At what point did God breath it, and at what point in history did men recognize it as such, and under what authority did men decide what to call Sacred Scripture.

I think history stands against your position here my friend.

I am not saying God is obligated to save anyone. However, if salvation is based on some capricious choice by a god that created some to save and and some to burn, then that sounds more like the god of the Muslims, that is, the master and not the Father.

God knows of course who will be saved an who won’t. But that He knows because He is God, not because we don’t have the offer of salvation. I have often wondered if that is not the cause of some of Christ’s pain on the Cross. The pain of knowing how many of His children would not choose Him?

God Bless,

Victor

 

[underdog]

No that is not me, I am in South Florida.

The Scriptures are God breathed and inspired, but so is His Church. And that Church was the author of Sacred Scripture. And when real men convened to examin those books being used, they used the Sacred Tradition of The Church as a test for that scripture. Perhaps it is in your understanding of what The Church is that poses a stumbling block for believing that The Church was the test for scripture. Remember we see The Church as the Body of Christ. In that capacity, she is fully capable, and has the authority to test scripture.

By the way, The Church did not give us the Old Testament, but chose to include it. That helps to make the point, doesn’t it? Perhaps you can explain to me how the Bible came about. At what point did God breath it, and at what point in history did men recognize it as such, and under what authority did men decide what to call Sacred Scripture.

I think history stands against your position here my friend.

I am not saying God is obligated to save anyone. However, if salvation is based on some capricious choice by a god that created some to save and and some to burn, then that sounds more like the god of the Muslims, that is, the master and not the Father.

God knows of course who will be saved an who won’t. But that He knows because He is God, not because we don’t have the offer of salvation. I have often wondered if that is not the cause of some of Christ’s pain on the Cross. The pain of knowing how many of His children would not choose Him?

God Bless,

Victor

These are very good points that deserves a well thought out answer. I do need to get some work done but I know your positons on the thread topic depends where you line-up with predestination and election. I know there is much room within the Catholic Church in these areas, including allowing Catholics to embrace a form of double-predestination. The Catholic Church may have been influenced by Augustine more than you may know and think, eventhough 21st Century Catholicism is very semi-pelagius (not to offend by how else can I describe it?). There is a grace that causes the elect only to endure to the end in official Roman Catholic doctrine.

 

[AshleyBelle]

These are very good points that deserves a well thought out answer. I do need to get some work done but I know your positons on the thread topic depends where you line-up with predestination and election. I know there is much room within the Catholic Church in these areas, including allowing Catholics to embrace a form of double-predestination. The Catholic Church may have been influenced by Augustine more than you may know and think, eventhough 21st Century Catholicism is very semi-pelagius (not to offend by how else can I describe it?). There is a grace that causes the elect only to endure to the end in official Roman Catholic doctrine.

Are you here to conform Catholic teaching more closely to calvinistic theology? Is that your purpose here at CAF?

 

[underdog]

Hi Ashley,

Whatever is written from you is concealed to me.

 

[Gatell]

These are very good points that deserves a well thought out answer. I do need to get some work done but I know your positons on the thread topic depends where you line-up with predestination and election. I know there is much room within the Catholic Church in these areas, including allowing Catholics to embrace a form of double-predestination. The Catholic Church may have been influenced by Augustine more than you may know and think, eventhough 21st Century Catholicism is very semi-pelagius (not to offend by how else can I describe it?). There is a grace that causes the elect only to endure to the end in official Roman Catholic doctrine.

Hi underdog:

Not that I am that well educated in such matters, but I found no association between 21st Century Catholicism and Palagianism. Perhaps when you have more time you can explain.

God Bless,

Victor

 

[underdog]

Hi underdog:

Not that I am that well educated in such matters, but I found no association between 21st Century Catholicism and Palagianism. Perhaps when you have more time you can explain.

God Bless,

Victor

I find that the work of the Spirit seems to be left out by 21st Century Christians in bringing Christ to lost sinners. But that’s my view and opinion. Do you believe it is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to remind us of what Christ taught, and to glorify God in Christ?

 

[AshleyBelle]

I find that the work of the Spirit seems to be left out by 21st Century Christians in bringing Christ to lost sinners. But that’s my view and opinion. Do you believe it is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to remind us of what Christ taught, and to glorify God in Christ?

The Holy Spirit is what guides the church into all truth. We have the promise, from Christ Himself when he breathed upon His apostles at the great commision

What does it mean to you, to be "lost?"  I think we have demonstarted that we have very different definitions of this term.

The Bible is clear we may not judge the state of ours or anyone else’s soul. Only God is the judge. When asked if we are “saved” we must appeal to scripture and respond:

“I do not judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but that does not mean I am acquitted. It is the Lord Who judges me”

 

[Gatell]

I find that the work of the Spirit seems to be left out by 21st Century Christians in bringing Christ to lost sinners. But that’s my view and opinion. Do you believe it is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to remind us of what Christ taught, and to glorify God in Christ?

Do you mean the “Holy Spirit” appart from God, or Christ? The ministry of The Church is to do the very thing you mention, among other very important things like bringing the Eucharist to the world. But I still don’t see the connection to Pelagianism. Perhaps I don’t understand you.

God Bless,

Victor

 

[underdog]

Do you mean the “Holy Spirit” appart from God, or Christ? The ministry of The Church is to do the very thing you mention, among other very important things like bringing the Eucharist to the world. But I still don’t see the connection to Pelagianism. Perhaps I don’t understand you.

God Bless,

Victor

Help me with Pelagianism and the reduced role of the Spirit, and his view of the goodness of man. I embrace more what Augustine believed on these issues. I think 21st Century Catholicism drifted away from Augustine and into a semi-pelagius foundation, don’t you?

 

[AshleyBelle]

Help me with Pelagianism and the reduced role of the Spirit, and his view of the goodness of man. I embrace more what Augustine believed on these issues. I think 21st Century Catholicism drifted away from Augustine and into a semi-pelagius foundation, don’t you?

The burden of proof rests on your shoulders due to this statement.
Please demonstrate what it is that the church of Augustine’s time believe that the Church does not believe or has “changed” today?
St. Monica, pray for us!

 

[Gatell]

Help me with Pelagianism and the reduced role of the Spirit, and his view of the goodness of man. I embrace more what Augustine believed on these issues. I think 21st Century Catholicism drifted away from Augustine and into a semi-pelagius foundation, don’t you?

Underdog, you have me at a disadvantage, for it seems I am sparring with shadows. Your write; “I think 21st Century Catholicism drifted away from Augustine and into a semi-pelagious foundation, don’t you?”

Perhaps you should add; “I believe this because and then list X,Y, and Z.” Then we can discuss it.

The Church fought Pelagianism vehemently spanning two centuries. I would like to know what Catholic practices or doctrines fall into that heresy.

God Bless,

Victor

 

[underdog]

Underdog, you have me at a disadvantage, for it seems I am sparring with shadows. Your write; “I think 21st Century Catholicism drifted away from Augustine and into a semi-pelagious foundation, don’t you?”

Perhaps you should add; “I believe this because and then list X,Y, and Z.” Then we can discuss it.

The Church fought Pelagianism vehemently spanning two centuries. I would like to know what Catholic practices or doctrines fall into that heresy.

God Bless,

Victor

Muslims, Jews, and other Christ-less faith believers being saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ is the big one.