Who killed Jesus and why?

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underdog said:
Please forgive me if I misunderstand your posting. It seems Catholics are still trying to appease God for your sins throgh the mass, or in other ways through the sacraments. Do you see why our theologies is worlds apart? Christ actually satsified and bore the wrath of God for those who are His. It is finished and the price has been paid in full. Therefore, we have peace with God. . [9]
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the price has been paid in full,that is why one is in a state of grace after baptism.
it is through our baptism that we are washed of sin.this is what Christ bore.now how is this applied today for certainly we were not all at the foot of the cross.
what of sin commited after being washed of sin.one can not be rebaptised for the remission of sin now can we?
 
underdog said:
Our sins were transfered to Jesus. How about the scapegoat and all the animals sacrificed in the Old Testament altars? Those animal sacrifices were foreshadow of the sacrifical lamb of God who was without blemish (without sin).

This is the gospel: 2 Cor 5:21

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
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True but again you confuse punishment and atonement and the need for sacrifice of blood.
A need for sacrifice is not done out of anger, but out of necessity. Jesus was not angry, God was not angry. He loves us. It was done out of love for us.
 
happilycatholic said:
**No, Christ was not being punished at all. He was giving the gift of everlasting life. **
It’s hard to think of something such as His crucifixion being a gift, but it was.
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I think you guys are going beyond official Roman Catholic theology.
 
happilycatholic said:
True but again you confuse punishment and atonement and the need for sacrifice of blood.
A need for sacrifice is not done out of anger, but out of necessity. Jesus was not angry, God was not angry. He loves us. It was done out of love for us.
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God’s anger is clear in both the Old and New Testaments. Do you understand what the 2nd comming of Christ is about?

The Judgment at Christ’s Coming - 2 Thes

5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from [2] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
underdog said:
Our sins were transfered to Jesus.
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Hi

I don’t agree with you.

The Concept of Sin and Atonement as held by Catholics is not based on anything Jesus said, did or taught, in my opinion. It is invented by Paul.

Thanks
 
underdog said:
Our sins were transfered to Jesus. How about the scapegoat and all the animals sacrificed in the Old Testament altars? Those animal sacrifices were foreshadows of the sacrifical lamb of God who was without blemish (without sin).

This is the gospel: 2 Cor 5:21

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Click to expand...
Just out of curiosity, what is your need to attach anger and wrath to Christ’s crucifixion?
Do you somehow believe that only an angry God could do such a thing? Do you have a need to reconcile it in that way?
 
underdog said:
The price or our debt for sins have been paid in full. It is the perfect substituitional sacrifce and payment required by God for divine justice. .

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. - Colossians 2
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Your post does not explain why you said "it is finished " in regarding to my post about “using crucifix” – You are contradicting yourself as you still talk about Jesus’ death and seem to have problem understanding the Crucifix.

You can probably generate more pages on this thread, but sometimes it only takes a Crucifix for someone to know Jesus’ love for him.

http://www.cilice.co.uk/images/CRUCIFIX WOOD1.jpg
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

I don’t agree with you.

The Concept of Sin and Atonement as held by Catholics is not based on anything Jesus said, did or taught, in my opinion. It is invented by Paul.

Thanks
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Do you determine truth by the Quran? I determine truth by the Holy Bible.
 
AshleyBelle said:
I agree completely, happilcatholic:)

I am asking underdog to clarify his understandings about “the wrath of God” and other such questions, to try and get an idea of where he is coming from, and where his questions to us are founded.

But as I said before… Christ could not be “punished” for He was guilty of nothing.
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I knew you and I were on the same page. I just wanted to clarify before things got out of hand 😃
 
underdog said:
God’s anger is clear in both the Old and New Testaments. Do you understand what the 2nd comming of Christ is about?

The Judgment at Christ’s Coming - 2 Thes

when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance
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sounds like ‘the wrath of the Lamb’ Rev 6:16 ?
 
The wrath of the lamb, and the wrath of God in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 6:16
calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,

Revelation 6:17
for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Revelation 11:18
The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants,[1] the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

Revelation 12:12
Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Revelation 14:8
Another angel, a second, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion[1] of her sexual immorality.”

Revelation 14:10
he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Revelation 14:19
So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 15:1
The Seven Angels with Seven Plagues
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

Revelation 15:7
And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever,

Revelation 16:1

The Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”

Revelation 16:19
The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.

Revelation 19:15
From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
 
underdog said:
I think you guys are going beyond official Roman Catholic theology.
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Please show me how.
To answer your post on the second coming of Christ:
Christ’s second coming is going to be about one of two things. For Christians it will be about being with Him in everlasting life. For those who are not Christians, it will be about eternal Hell.
It’s more about you and me than it is about God’s wrath. Remember, first comes sin. No sin, no wrath. We should still be in Eden.
 
happilycatholic said:
Please show me how.
To answer your post on the second coming of Christ:
Christ’s second coming is going to be about one of two things. For Christians it will be about being with Him in everlasting life. For those who are not Christians, it will be about eternal Hell.
It’s more about you and me than it is about God’s wrath. Remember, first comes sin. No sin, no wrath. We should still be in Eden.
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I think the focus on who killed Jesus is to grow in knowledge in what Christ did on our behalf, so we can grow in our love and affection for God. It’s been a wonderful time discussing these things with all of you today. All of you blessed my day. Christianity is about Christ and Him crucified on behalf of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 2:2

For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
 
underdog said:
The wrath of the lamb, and the wrath of God in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 6:16
calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,

Revelation 6:17
for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Revelation 11:18
The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants,[1] the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

Revelation 12:12
Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Revelation 14:8
Another angel, a second, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion[1] of her sexual immorality.”

Revelation 14:10
he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Revelation 14:19
So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 15:1
The Seven Angels with Seven Plagues
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

Revelation 15:7
And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever,

Revelation 16:1

The Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”

Revelation 16:19
The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.

Revelation 19:15
From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
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**What does this have to do with the topic? No one said God doesn’t make His wrath known. **
Even the Church doesn’t attempt to interpret the Book of Revelation so I’m certainly not going to.
 
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