Who was the first Christian?

[1believer1]

Sorry I disagree with you.

Any particular point or my whole message?

 

[jmcrae]

I didn’t make the claim of hijack, Xavierlives did in post 92

That does not prove that they knew he was God.To me it proves that they thought him to be a prophet or a good teacher, but not God.
Lets get it straight I said in my original post that I thought Christ was the first Christian. Then it blew up because some one said that Mary was the first Christian and that she knew he was God. And that’s where it all started. Because of the other person.
John 2:1-5 Weddings in Jesus’ day wer week long festivals. Banquets would be prepared for many guests and the week would be spent celebrating the new life of the married couple. To run out of wine was more thatn embarrasing, it broke the strong unwritten laws of hospitality, Jesus responded to a heartfelt need. Now Mary was probably not asking Jesus to do a miracle, she was sismply hoping that her son would help solve this major problem and find some wine. Tradition says that Joseph was dead so she probably was used to asking for he son’s help in certain situatuons. Jesus’ answer to Mary is diffucult to understand, but maybe that is the point. Although Mary didn’t understand what Jesus was going to do, she trusted him to do what was right. Mary submitted to Jesus’ way of doing things. She recognized that Jesus was nore than her human son, he was the Son of God.

We believe that God is in the Tabernacle, and yet how often we see people simply walk by it without acknowledging Him, in their rush to do this or that for the Church. It is perfectly possible for them to have known that Jesus was God, and yet not been down on their faces in worship the entire time that He was among them, living with them as a boy in Nazareth, even to the point of losing track of Him and having to go back to get Him. From our vantage point, we can criticize the family in Nazareth and say, “How could you let this happen?” but when we look at ourselves, we see the same thing going on - we forget that God is there, or we simply become so used to Him being there that we forget to give Him the honour that He is due, because our minds are on other things.

 

[rev_kevin]

Okay. Let’s break this down. The Pharisees understood Jesus to mean “I am God” when He said, “I am the Son of God.” Right? That’s why they crucified him.

Mary also, therefore, (because she came from the same culture and held the same assumptions about what things mean) should have understood, when the Angel Gabriel told her, “You will give birth to the Son of God” - same phrase, notice - she should have understood from that, that her Son was God. Notice how she believed what he told her and said, 'Be it done unto me according to thy word," instead of “Pshaw, you’re kidding me. Try another one.”

Mary believed it; that’s why she said “Yes.”

The Pharisees did not believe it; that’s why they crucified Him.

Ok lets keep beating this dead horse.
Yes correct. Now the main part of what you are saying it that the pharisees understood Jesus meant he was God. Two main words “understood and meant” I see no believe here.
Nice try but no.
See they, the priests and pharisees, did not believe he was God but that he claimed to be God. Once again believe and knowing are two different things. So sticking with your logic when the angel said you will give birth to the Son of God and because she came from the same culture and held the same assumption that the priests and pharisees had it would stand to reason that she thought the same as they did and they did not believe Jesus was God.
Now the notice part of your statement only proves that she was told that it was the Son of God not God himself.
Now by saying “be it done to me according to thy word” don’t prove anything except that she agreed to giving birth to the Son of God.
Your statements are just assumptions, no proof.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Ok lets keep beating this dead horse.
Yes correct. Now the main part of what you are saying it that the pharisees understood Jesus meant he was God. Two main words “understood and meant” I see no believe here.
Nice try but no.
See they, the priests and pharisees, did not believe he was God but that he claimed to be God. Once again believe and knowing are two different things. So sticking with your logic when the angel said you will give birth to the Son of God and because she came from the same culture and held the same assumption that the priests and pharisees had it would stand to reason that she thought the same as they did and they did not believe Jesus was God.
Now the notice part of your statement only proves that she was told that it was the Son of God not God himself.
Now by saying “be it done to me according to thy word” don’t prove anything except that she agreed to giving birth to the Son of God.
Your statements are just assumptions, no proof.

Did you see my response? Would you mind commenting on it, please?

 

[jmcrae]

Ok lets keep beating this dead horse.
Yes correct. Now the main part of what you are saying it that the pharisees understood Jesus meant he was God. Two main words “understood and meant” I see no believe here.

I never said they did. I said, They knew that the phrase “Son of God” means that He is God. We know that they knew that, because they reacted by plotting to have Him crucified for blasphemy.

Once again believe and knowing are two different things. So sticking with your logic when the angel said you will give birth to the Son of God and because she came from the same culture and held the same assumption that the priests and pharisees had it would stand to reason that she thought the same as they did and they did not believe Jesus was God.

What??!! NO!! Mary heard the phrase “Son of God” and knew (as the Pharisees knew) that it (the phrase) means, He is God.

Mary (unlike the Pharisees) believed this word, and knew that Jesus is God.

Now the notice part of your statement only proves that she was told that it was the Son of God not God himself.

Which is exactly the same thing that the Pharisees were told - no difference.

Now by saying “be it done to me according to thy word” don’t prove anything except that she agreed to giving birth to the Son of God.

Which she knew was God, because in that culture, the phrase “Son of God” means, He is God.

 

[rev_kevin]

We believe that God is in the Tabernacle, and yet how often we see people simply walk by it without acknowledging Him, in their rush to do this or that for the Church. It is perfectly possible for them to have known that Jesus was God, and yet not been down on their faces in worship the entire time that He was among them, living with them as a boy in Nazareth, even to the point of losing track of Him and having to go back to get Him. From our vantage point, we can criticize the family in Nazareth and say, “How could you let this happen?” but when we look at ourselves, we see the same thing going on - we forget that God is there, or we simply become so used to Him being there that we forget to give Him the honour that He is due, because our minds are on other things.

I agree with you that God is the Tabernacle and that we forget that God is there, or we simply become so used to him being there that we forget to give him the honor that he is due, because our minds are on other things. Now you say it is perfictly possible for them to have known that Jesus was God. Now the word possible means it could be but I’m not sure. Perfictly meaning for sure no doubt. So you are saying that they have no doubt that he could possibly be but I’m not for sure that they believed he was God. We don’t know what Jesus was like or what he did in the 12 years. We can only assume what he was like and what he did, but we don’t know for sure. The reason Jesus was not with Joseph and Mary was because Mary and Joseph assumed that Jesus was traviling back with his friends. Found in Luke 2: 43-44 So it was not a point of forgetting him, more a misunderstanding.

 

[rev_kevin]

I never said they did. I said, They knew that the phrase “Son of God” means that He is God. We know that they knew that, because they reacted by plotting to have Him crucified for blasphemy.

What??!! NO!! Mary heard the phrase “Son of God” and knew (as the Pharisees knew) that it (the phrase) means, He is God.

Mary (unlike the Pharisees) believed this word, and knew that Jesus is God.

Which is exactly the same thing that the Pharisees were told - no difference.

Which she knew was God, because in that culture, the phrase “Son of God” means, He is God.

Sorry but I disagree with you on all accounts.

 

[Benadam]

Now you say it is perfictly possible for them to have known that Jesus was God. Now the word possible means it could be but I’m not sure. Perfictly meaning for sure no doubt. So you are saying that they have no doubt that he could possibly be but I’m not for sure that they believed he was God.

 

[rev_kevin]

Did I mention that Peter, Paul, the apostles, etc. were all of the culture? Yet they believed he was God therefore it is possible for many people to move beyond the culture and see Jesus as He really is. The NT itself is proof of this.

Taking your logic to the extreme, the only people could now Jesus is God is only the Trinity or the Gentiles or only the believers today but the existence of the NT and how Christianity has flourished is proof that this theory doesn’t fly.

Therefore, it is not possible to use Jewish culture as proof. If Paul, the Pharisees of the Pharisees, could believe is possible (and logically) that Mary knew that Jesus is God.

Your thoughts…

You never mentioned anything to me.
Of course they were all of the same culture.
Matthew 8:25 {Jesus calms the storm} The disciples went to him and woke him shouting, Lord save us! We’re going to drown! {26} And Jesus answered. Why are you afraid? You have little faith! Then he stood up and rebuked the wind and waves and suddenly all was calm. {27} The disciples just sat there in awe. Who is this? they asked themselves. Even the wind and waves obey him!
Didn’t know then.
Matthew 11: 2 {Jesus eases John’s doubt} John the Baptist who was now in prison heard about all the things Jesus was doing. So he sent his disciples to ask Jesus, Are you really the Messiah we’ve been waiting for, or should we keep looking for someone eles.
John didn’t know for sure.
Matthew 14:28 {Jesus walks on water} Peter called to him Lord if its really you tell me to come to you by walking on water. {29} All right come, Jesus said. So Peter went over the side of the boat and walked on the water toward Jesus. {30} But when he looked around ad the high waves he was terrified and began to sink, Save me Lord1 he shouted. {31} Instantly Jesus reached out his hand and grabbed him. You don’t have much faith, Jesus said. Why did you doubt me?
Didn’t know then
Matthew 16:13 {Peter says Jesus is the Messiah} Who do people say the Son of Man is?
{14} Well they replied some say John the Baptist, some say Elijah, and others say Jeremiah or one of the other prophets.{15} Who do you say I am? Peter answered. You are the Messiah, the Son of God.
Peter knew he was the Son of God. Now Messiah Literally Anointed One. Messiah transliterates the Hebrew word that refers to the ruling King or coming Savior. Christ transliterates the Greek word for the Anointed One or Messiah.

I did not use the Jewish culture as proof, jmcrae did I just responded.
If Paul, the pharisees of the pharisees could believe is {it} possible and logically that Mary knew that Jesus is God. Here you use 2 different words “possible” Paul knew and Mary “knew”. Possible-could be, maybe. Knew-deinite.
Your proof isn’t there your theory don’t fly

 

[Dancelittleewok]

You never mentioned anything to me.
Of course they were all of the same culture.
Matthew 8:25 {Jesus calms the storm} The disciples went to him and woke him shouting, Lord save us! We’re going to drown! {26} And Jesus answered. Why are you afraid? You have little faith! Then he stood up and rebuked the wind and waves and suddenly all was calm. {27} The disciples just sat there in awe. Who is this? they asked themselves. Even the wind and waves obey him!
Didn’t know then.
Matthew 11: 2 {Jesus eases John’s doubt} John the Baptist who was now in prison heard about all the things Jesus was doing. So he sent his disciples to ask Jesus, Are you really the Messiah we’ve been waiting for, or should we keep looking for someone eles.
John didn’t know for sure.
Matthew 14:28 {Jesus walks on water} Peter called to him Lord if its really you tell me to come to you by walking on water. {29} All right come, Jesus said. So Peter went over the side of the boat and walked on the water toward Jesus. {30} But when he looked around ad the high waves he was terrified and began to sink, Save me Lord1 he shouted. {31} Instantly Jesus reached out his hand and grabbed him. You don’t have much faith, Jesus said. Why did you doubt me?
Didn’t know then
Matthew 16:13 {Peter says Jesus is the Messiah} Who do people say the Son of Man is?
{14} Well they replied some say John the Baptist, some say Elijah, and others say Jeremiah or one of the other prophets.{15} Who do you say I am? Peter answered. You are the Messiah, the Son of God.
Peter knew he was the Son of God. Now Messiah Literally Anointed One. Messiah transliterates the Hebrew word that refers to the ruling King or coming Savior. Christ transliterates the Greek word for the Anointed One or Messiah.

I did not use the Jewish culture as proof, jmcrae did I just responded.
If Paul, the pharisees of the pharisees could believe is {it} possible and logically that Mary knew that Jesus is God. Here you use 2 different words “possible” Paul knew and Mary “knew”. Possible-could be, maybe. Knew-deinite.
Your proof isn’t there your theory don’t fly

You’ve used “Son of God” as a negative against Mary knowing but it’s ok since Paul knows “Son of God” means “God” but Mary, whom is being informed by an angel, cannot?

 

[rev_kevin]

rev kevin;5934493:

Rev this sentence: it is perfictly possible for them to have known

means this*: they have no doubt that he could possibly be*
according to you. And then you argue that is what Jmcrae meant and call ot a contridiction:shrug:

What was the lesson of faith in this event if it is simply an event that a wrong assumption is made? what moral teaching is happening here?

Perfectly- In a perfect manner {understanding perfectly}. to an adequate extent {perfectly willing to go}

Possible- being something that can be done or brought about. being something that may or may not occur. able or fitted to be or to become. {Middle Frence, from Latin “possibilis” from posse “to be abel” from potis “able” esse "to be.

Knew- past for know

Know- to preceive directly, have direct awareness. to preceive and rememver the identity. to be aquainted or familiar with. to be able to declare truthfully. to have a practical understanding of. to have knowledge. to be or become aware {Old English “cnawan.”

I didn’t bring it up jmcrae did. I quoted what he was talking about from the Bible. If you want to know ask him not me.

Don’t twist my words, you know exactily what I was saying. Right now its 2 Catholics baggering a non-Catholic and I am getting the blamed for jmcrae qotes. You won’t go after jmcrae because he is a Catholic.

 

[rev_kevin]

You’ve used “Son of God” as a negative against Mary knowing but it’s ok since Paul knows “Son of God” means “God” but Mary, whom is being informed by an angel, cannot?

I’m getting tired of this Mary thing. All we are doing is going round and round, saying the same thing over and over again. When I first posted here I said Christ was the first Christian, then your buddy jmcrae started with the Mary thing. So if you want to discuss, argue, match witts, about it do it with jmcrae I’m tired of beating a dead horse trying to get it to walk. I stand by my first post CHRIST WAS THE FIRST CHRISTIAN. Now find someone eles to argue with. Have a good day.

 

[Benadam]

Benadam;5934792:

Perfectly- In a perfect manner {understanding perfectly}. to an adequate extent {perfectly willing to go}

Possible- being something that can be done or brought about. being something that may or may not occur. able or fitted to be or to become. {Middle Frence, from Latin “possibilis” from posse “to be abel” from potis “able” esse "to be.

Knew- past for know

Know- to preceive directly, have direct awareness. to preceive and rememver the identity. to be aquainted or familiar with. to be able to declare truthfully. to have a practical understanding of. to have knowledge. to be or become aware {Old English “cnawan.”

I didn’t bring it up jmcrae did. I quoted what he was talking about from the Bible. If you want to know ask him not me.

Don’t twist my words, you know exactily what I was saying. Right now its 2 Catholics baggering a non-Catholic and I am getting the blamed for jmcrae qotes. You won’t go after jmcrae because he is a Catholic.

Well the sense of the statement was in the vernacular not theological. As in " She is perfectly capable as any man to do the job." It’s not used in the theological sense of the word but as an expression of the author’s certainty not descriptive of the subject of the statement

 

[Benadam]

Benadam;5934792:

Don’t twist my words, you know exactily what I was saying. Right now its 2 Catholics baggering a non-Catholic and I am getting the blamed for jmcrae qotes. You won’t go after jmcrae because he is a Catholic.

I’m sorry, I certainly don’t want to make anyone here feel ganged up on. Not worth damaging our bond as human beings and fellowship in Christ. Peace of Christ Rev Kevin

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I’m getting tired of this Mary thing. All we are doing is going round and round, saying the same thing over and over again. When I first posted here I said Christ was the first Christian, then your buddy jmcrae started with the Mary thing. So if you want to discuss, argue, match witts, about it do it with jmcrae I’m tired of beating a dead horse trying to get it to walk. I stand by my first post CHRIST WAS THE FIRST CHRISTIAN. Now find someone eles to argue with. Have a good day.

Kevin, it wasn’t my intention to gang up on you. Actually, my answer was God was the first Christian so we are in agreement. I understand that Mary is the first Christian idea didn’t originate with you but I was responding to your disagreement of it. If I’ve offended you, I apologize.

 

[Xavierlives]

I’m getting tired of this Mary thing. All we are doing is going round and round, saying the same thing over and over again. When I first posted here I said Christ was the first Christian, then your buddy jmcrae started with the Mary thing. So if you want to discuss, argue, match witts, about it do it with jmcrae I’m tired of beating a dead horse trying to get it to walk. I stand by my first post CHRIST WAS THE FIRST CHRISTIAN. Now find someone eles to argue with. Have a good day.

Can one follow himself?

 

[djeter]

Pascal: The First Modern Christian by Edward T. Oakes

essay here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/pascal-the-first-modern-christian-by-edward-t-oakes/

dj

 

[rev_kevin]

rev kevin;5934903:

Well the sense of the statement was in the vernacular not theological. As in " She is perfectly capable as any man to do the job." It’s not used in the theological sense of the word but as an expression of the author’s certainty not descriptive of the subject of the statement

Not discussing Mary part any more. I’v been beating this dead horse for 4 days and nothing has been accomplished.

 

[rev_kevin]

rev kevin;5934903:

I’m sorry, I certainly don’t want to make anyone here feel ganged up on. Not worth damaging our bond as human beings and fellowship in Christ. Peace of Christ Rev Kevin

No hard feellings and nothing damaged. It takes a big person to say I’m sorry. We may not agree on everything, but I believe we can agree that God comes first in our lives.
God Bless you Benadam

 

[rev_kevin]

Kevin, it wasn’t my intention to gang up on you. Actually, my answer was God was the first Christian so we are in agreement. I understand that Mary is the first Christian idea didn’t originate with you but I was responding to your disagreement of it. If I’ve offended you, I apologize.

Accepted. Really wasn’t offended just felt ganged up on, but I’m glad that we at least agree on something, See this Mary thing was getting out of hand and needed to stop after 4 days of back and forth and nobody getting anywhere. It takes a big person to apologize and you are one. By the way I like your name here, you must like star wars. God Bless you