Who will you be supporting in the U.S. presidential election with our Catholic values in mind?

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Ridgerunner said:
Killing innocent children or not is a binary choice, though, isn’t it?
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Having an abortion, or not, is a binary choice. In politics, the question is what the law needs to be.

In trying to understand the legal and political path, you jumped away from that to the issue of the actual act, not the law surrounding the act. If I decide to smoke marihuana tonight, or not, that is a binary decision. However, the legislation surrounding that act is more complicated, and more to the point here, is not the same topic as the act.

No, you do not have to make any attempt to understand anyone that disagrees with you, or try and understand why your own position has opposition. However, such a path will make discussion fruitless. “Dems” you know will remain Dems. No ground on abortion will be gained.
 
pnewton said:
No, you do not have to make any attempt to understand anyone that disagrees with you, or try and understand why your own position has opposition. However, such a path will make discussion fruitless. “Dems” you know will remain Dems. No ground on abortion will be gained.
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How am I supposed to understand willful killing of innocent children? There are simply moral choices that are wrong every time and in every way, and that’s one of them.

No ground will be gained with pro-abortion supporters by compromise. But now and then and here and there one is converted.
 
Ridgerunner said:
A candidate can do a lot. But you’re okay with killing millions because it’s probably not possible to save them all?

The multiple Dem media slanders against Trump are well known, and it’s also well known that the Dems try to fool Catholics into rejecting a prolife candidate because he has committed sins of other sorts, most of which he didn’t actually commit.

Dems really do think Catholics are moral idiots and are banking on that to persuade them to vote for killing children.
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I am not ok with abortion. I think it should be banned. However that isn’t going to happen. Have been through this conversation too many times. The courts have ruled it is and will remain legal in some form in this country. Short of a Constitutional amendment, that is the way it is.

Most of what sins he didn’t actually commit? Adultery, yes, lies, yes, theft, yes, bullying, yes, sewing division, yes. No point in going on.

I vote for the person I feel is best suited to govern our country. That is the job they are elected for. Are any of the perfect, nope. Do we have to look at the whole candidate package in making our decisions, yep.

When a candidate acts in a manner which would keep me from inviting them to dinner with my family at my house because of their character, they will not get my vote. Exactly the reason I didn’t vote for either of the major Presidential candidates in the last election.

When there is a ballot proposition allowing or banning abortion you can bring up the argument of Catholics voting for abortion. Until then, not so much.
 
There are lots of reasons people give to reconcile themselves with abortion. And this is certainly one of them.
farronwolf said:
When there is a ballot proposition allowing or banning abortion you can bring up the argument of Catholics voting for abortion. Until then, not so much.
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Trump admitted to adultery with his second wife while still married to his first. All other allegations are just allegations.

You can let us know what thefts he has committed and the reasons why he was never convicted of them. And after “bitter clingers” and “deplorables” and “need to change their religion” and “smelly Walmart shoppers” you think TRUMP is a sower of discord? The Dems got there long before he did.
 
farronwolf said:
When there is a ballot proposition allowing or banning abortion you can bring up the argument of Catholics voting for abortion. Until then, not so much.
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I would like to point out though, that the Church in the United States (at least), through the shepherds we have over us, still believe that abortion is the most important consideration we are to have in deciding who to vote for. In some countries, perhaps in the U.S. if we survive long enough, we might be in a position where it is entrenched beyond the point of being worth considering in a candidate.
 
Even though the Pope and the USCCB have repeatedly stated that we are not to be single-issue voters, the mantra of some on the right is that any time they want to defend their right-wing politicians it’s “abortion, abortion, abortion…”-- like nothing else really matters.
 
Metis1 said:
Even though the Pope and the USCCB have repeatedly stated that we are not to be single-issue voters, the mantra of some on the right is that any time they want to defend their right-wing politicians it’s “abortion, abortion, abortion…”-- like nothing else really matters.
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Tell us which other issues now presenting are “proportionate” to killing a million children a year, If you can’t, then “single issue” IS the only alternative.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Trump admitted to adultery with his second wife while still married to his first. All other allegations are just allegations.

You can let us know what thefts he has committed and the reasons why he was never convicted of them. And after “bitter clingers” and “deplorables” and “need to change their religion” and “smelly Walmart shoppers” you think TRUMP is a sower of discord? The Dems got there long before he did.
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So I guess we agree that he is sewing division, and a bully since you didn’t argue those points.

How many people you know that pay porn stars over 100k? Pretty certain he got something for that kind of money. Maybe he was making a movie and that was her fee.

Bankruptcy is theft. May be a legal form, but it is theft. You get something you didn’t pay for in full. When contractors win lawsuits and are able to file liens on your property, you have committed theft by not paying them. Folks just don’t get to go file liens on other peoples property without either a contract or court approval. You don’t get convicted in civil court, you get judgments against you. He has plenty.

You can make all the excuses you would like for him, but the facts are out there. If you choose to ignore them, that is on you. You can argue there is no evidence all you want but that is simply ignorance. Educate yourself if you choose. Stick your head in the sand if you choose. I know the facts.
 
farronwolf said:
So I guess we agree that he is sewing division, and a bully since you didn’t argue those points.
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You don’t speak for me.
farronwolf said:
Bankruptcy is theft. May be a legal form, but it is theft. You get something you didn’t pay for in full. When contractors win lawsuits and are able to file liens on your property, you have committed theft by not paying them. Folks just don’t get to go file liens on other peoples property without either a contract or court approval.
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You might do well to read up on Chapter 11 bankruptcy and mechanics’ and materialmens’ liens. In Chapter 11, you either pay your creditors in full or lose your ownership. Trump did not lose his ownership. But you don’t have to pay everybody what he cares to claim. If challenged, the judge rules on the claims.

Mechanics’ and materialmens’ liens are CHARACTERISTICALLY filed before anything is filed in court, and without court approval. That’s the nature of them. And you certainly can file one without a written contract. But filing one does not mean you’re right, and often does not.

What current judgments does Trump have against him, if any, that are not on appeal? Pretty safe to say “none” because you can execute on judgments once the appeal period passes.
farronwolf said:
Educate yourself if you choose. I know the facts.
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I have educated myself at least as to the nature of Chapter 11 and mechanics’ and materialmens’ liens. And I’m not wrong about what I said. Look it up and you’ll find that you most definitely do not know the facts as regards those things.
 
Not all creditors are paid in full under Chapter 11 in many instances. Many are paid proportionally, and if the business is later closed before the end of the bankruptcy term, the creditors are stiffed. He has a good history of that. Banks loose interest on the loans, and stock holders are stiffed out of their investments in addition.

In NY where he does most of his business contracts are required for liens. My state requires them too. Just because he appeals the liens doesn’t mean they are not valid. Simply a tactic he uses to keep from paying and trying to wear down the little guys.

Just a quick list of some of the larger cases of theft Trump has had to pay up for.

Trump University
13 settled labor cases, several others dismissed under bankruptcy or business closing.
Trump Tower in Florida.
Trump Foundation
Trump Resort Baja
 
dvdjs said:
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midge13:
yet, it doesn’t allow for, an act of killing that is,
committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.
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I am not sure what you are getting at, but I think it does.
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So murder of an innocent child committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent is permissible under Catholic moral thinking? Under which circumstances, exactly?

This from an individual who claims a general principle such as “love is fundamental to our religion” necessarily means providing health care to illegal migrants. Puzzling really.
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Elizabeth Warren Confirms Her Medicare for All Plan Will Cover Illegal Immigrants World News
You may choose to call my unwillingness to move to that discussion evasion, but I am just being consistent. That is a thornier problem that the one that I raised, and there is no point in discussing it until the the principle is accepted. It hasn’t been an evasion from that fundamental issue.
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In one case, for you, an abstract prescription to love entails tax payer provided universal health care for illegals, but meanwhile a very precise moral command such as, Do not murder innocent human beings, is subject to “limited moral culpability under many circumstances?”

No limitations to “love is fundamental to our religion” but “many circumstances” warrant the murder of innocent babies?

So your unwillingness to move regarding “love is fundamental to our religion” means you are “just being consistent” leaving “no point in discussing it until the the principle is accepted,” but we are to completely hedge on the murder of innocents because of the “many circumstances” you believe warrant that mass murder?

Hardly describes consistency. More like an asymmetric extension of an inconsistent morality in some undeterminable accordance with personal caprice.
 
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Ridgerunner said:
Tell us which other issues now presenting are “proportionate” to killing a million children a year,
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Red Herring.
No one is presenting a plan to stop :killing a million children a year".
That is not a choice.
Proportionality is measured among the actual choices.
 
Ever since 1973, Catholic Democrats have been looking for ways to vote pro-abortion. It has been amazing for me to watch.
 
JimG said:
Ever since 1973, Catholic Democrats have been looking for ways to vote pro-abortion. It has been amazing for me to watch.
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Are you actually making a judgement on others?

How have you voted? What impact has it had on the numbers of abortion?
What has it done?
 
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I don’t know how others voted. I have however been rather astonished over the years as one Catholic politician after another found reasons to favor abortion or to vote against limiting abortion, even with regard to such things as parental consent for minors seeking abortion or for late term or partial birth abortion. I think it was Ted Kennedy who even found a priest to help him craft a policy by which he could be pro-abortion yet still claim Catholicism. It has just been a sad spectacle. I continued to vote for Democrats for quite awhile until it becane clear to me that the party had fully embraced the pro-abortion plank and would not change or even allow pro-life speakers at the national convention.
 
dvdjs said:
How have you voted? What impact has it had on the numbers of abortion?
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How do you propose we change the laws in this country? Usually we elect representatives to pass amendments or bills and appoint judges, but if you have a more effective means, do tell. The passage of time does not dissuade me regarding this moral issue. It took nearly 100 years to pass the Civil Rights Bill after the Civil War. So I’ll continue to vote for candidates who oppose abortion. According to Wikipedia there were 70,412,021 Catholics in the U.S. in 2017. That’s a large voting block. If only we could all vote the same way.
 
humbleseeker said:
How do you propose we change the law in this country?
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First, through free assembly, there has to be a party in play who want prodcue the desired change. We do not have one and have not had one since RvW. The evidence for that simply fact is obvious. As recently as 2016, a party that bills itself as pro-life controlled Congress and the White House. It is not the first time that that party held all the cards. Yet, this time, like the others, aside from some showy things around the margins, the party had other priorities - tax cut for rich, increasing deficits, and driving a wedge on immigration. This is presumably because action consistent with the rhetoric, e.g., a pro-life amendment is a political loser. Over seventy percent of voters in the nation wants abortion safe, legal, and rare; Republicans are not challenging that substantial majority. Even the recent legislation in AL allowed unrestricted early abortion and even third trimester abortion consistent with RvW.

Voting for Republicans because of a pro-life platform is voting for Godot. Wedge politicization has been a failure that was easily predicted. What can be done is to push forward resolutely on all of the pro-life issues with majority support, highlight a constant, consistent pro-life theme, and work to grow the areas that enjoy that support.
 
I intend to support someone who has not been impeached by the US HOUSE OF REPRESENTITIVES
 
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