Who will you be supporting in the U.S. presidential election with our Catholic values in mind?

[farronwolf]

This is more complex and seems unjust to people who have tried to immigrate legally. Although I do accept that deporting them is not a feasible solution.

I would be more inclined to consider a path to legal residency, but they could not become citizens. It seems a decent compromise. Not ideal, but I guess it’s like the frozen embryos there is no good solution. It’s just a mess that needs to be sorted out in the fairest way possible.

Our unemployment rate is below 4%. We have a large number of baby boomers who are going to be retiring in the next 10 to 15 years. Who is going to do their jobs?

You don’t mind they are residents, but don’t want them to be citizens. What is that? Talk about having a second class society. Sure, come here pay our taxes, abide by our laws, but you have no say so in what we do, you don’t have all the legal protections, but maybe your kids can one day be full citizens.

What is your objection to them becoming citizens?

 

[Ridgerunner]

This sounds unbelievable enough that I think some sort of support is needed for that claim. Who is to judge what is “facially valid”? I can’t imagine a law based on such a subjective determination.

It’s not easy. That’s why employers who are the “usual targets” for illegals sometimes arrange with ICE to send copies of ID to ICE. ICE can investigate ID further. I once did contract work for a large employer who did that very thing, and for that reason.

What’s a “valid document”? You usually can’t know because fake ID is very good nowadays. Back in the day I knew a prolific vendor of fake ID. She offered to make me a set just for fun. I turned her down. Later on she was prosecuted, but she’s out now.

“Federal law prohibits employers from rejecting valid documents or insisting on additional documents beyond what is required for the Form I-9 or E-Verify…”

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/practices/inquiries_citizenship.cfm

 

[Ridgerunner]

You fix the system to where it actually validates the information.

Name, SSN, DOB and mothers maiden name, just like the SSA does.

Just because the current system isn’t strong enough doesn’t mean you can’t fix it.

I don’t expect it to be fixed any time soon. It is aimed to prevent one of the two remaining recognized “mortal sins” left in this society; discrimination. Social Security used to be regarded as the “third rail” in American politics. Now it’s “discrimination”.

But anymore, fake ID has all of that (other than mother’s maiden name) and a photo besides. Mother’s maiden name shouldn’t be a problem even if it appeared on ID since SSA doesn’t make you prove it. You just tell them.

 

[farronwolf]

States like the one I live in, no longer issue drivers licenses or state id’s to people who are not in the country legally.

You must present either an original certified copy of your birth certificate, or valid green card along with foreign birth certificate/passport to get your photo id.

Employers can not tell the person filling out the I-9 which form of id from each category to provide, but they certainly can determine if whatever document is provided is valid.

It really is no longer that easy to fake the documents needed for the I-9. Now states which issue drivers licenses or id’s without making the person prove they are in the US legally, make it much easier for the person to obtain a valid document.

Funny how a Canadian drivers license is accepted on the I-9, but that is the only country’s that is accepted. Anyone every wonder why that would be?

 

[Ridgerunner]

It really is no longer that easy to fake the documents needed for the I-9. Now states which issue drivers licenses or id’s without making the person prove they are in the US legally, make it much easier for the person to obtain a valid document.

You’re assuming fake ID is created by applying for it. Most fake ID is actually stolen and then altered, if necessary, to fit the person presenting it. Ask any Hispanic young man about the dangers of getting his ID stolen. I know a lawyer who does quite a bit of getting Hispanic young men out of trouble caused by fake ID that is either their own or is being used by someone else. Some of them have been arrested on out of state warrants when they weren’t the perpetrator at all.

It’s a brisk industry.

 

[farronwolf]

What id’s are you talking about?

Drivers licenses, passports, birth certificates?

I have clients, even our God Daughter’s parents who are in the US without proper status. Once their DL expired, issued before Texas strengthened their documentation requirements, they were no longer able to get a DL.

I am not saying documents can’t be forged, but it is much harder now with the security measures on the license.

Back to my point about verification for employment.

You want a job. The employer goes to the new E verify website and the prospective employee sits at the computer. They put in their name, DOB, SSN, and mothers maiden name and hit enter. It checks against the SS database, and if it doesn’t match the info, you don’t get the certificate saying you can work.

Without the certificate to put in the employers file, they are subject to the 10% penalty for hiring you.

If by chance someone does steal all the correct information and uses it for getting the certificate, the system would have a feature tied to the new hire reporting which employers are required to do to indicate that Joe Blow, born on 12/31/2000, with SSN 123-45-6789, and mothers maiden name of Smith is working in Dallas, Texas. But he is also showing to be working in Portland, Oregon, and San Diego, CA, and any other numerous places. This info is flagged and the employer is notified.

The real Joe Blow is easily enough identified because they will have a valid birth certificate. All the other ones will not be, and must be terminated from employment. The real Joe Blow is issued a PIN, which is sent to his real address, which changes every year and is updated by the SS office. The new E-verify system would require this PIN to get the certificate for employment. All those folks using the fake info would not have the PIN, thus would not be able to get the certificate.

This stuff is not that complicated, if the lawmakers would just get off there behinds an implement it. But both parties want the undocumented people here for different reasons. Thus it becomes a political football.

 

[Ridgerunner]

But both parties want the undocumented people here for different reasons.

I agree with this assertion, though I think with the Repubs it’s the hiring elites while with the Dems it’s more broad-based, to change the demographics as well.

I did not say it’s impossible to have a good identification system for employment, just that we don’t have one and are unlikely to get one. If we can’t even get reliable voter ID without hearing condemnations of “racism”, we’re not likely to get one for employment either.

 

[farronwolf]

So on voter ID.

I can request an absentee ballot, simply based on my voter registration going off of the info I used to register with the county, and send it in without any ID, but when I show up at the polls, my voter ID card isn’t good enough, I must present my DL or State issued ID.

My mom before her dementia was too bad for her to vote, voted absentee with an expired DL before we got her State ID. Should her vote not have counted? Or if I took her to the polling place should she not have been able to vote without a valid DL?

 

[Willing_Spirit]

Hahaha, I might vote for Trump, but it is funny how many people defend him as if he is perfect.

 

[Jeanne_S]

I don’t think it’s that we who support him think he’s perfect ,we know he isn’t.Its more at least for me, a matter of supporting him in spite of the relentless attacks that he has endured since even before taking office. If those opposed to his policies were more judicious in their criticisms they might actually get some validity.As it is now everything is a negative re Trump and it’s falling on deaf ears
Additionally,if anyone outside of his supporters ever would give him credit for the good he’s done then too the criticism would be received differently

 

[Willing_Spirit]

I understand that, but some of the comments I’ve seen here are right along the lines of the comment I just replied to, only in a dead serious tone.

 

[Convert3]

I have never known an illegal who didn’t return to the home country frequently.

Many illegals get caught for the free trip home care of the US taxpayer. Giving them residency will save billions in enforcement costs, require them to pay taxes and allows us to know who’s here. Of course, criminal record should be the ticket back to their home or jail.

 

[Metis1]

What about the harm he’s done, much of which is in violation of Catholic teachings, or doesn’t that matter? If one asks which, then let me direct them to reread the Sermon On the Mount (Matthew 12-14) and see how Trump compares.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Giving them residency will save billions in enforcement costs, require them to pay taxes and allows us to know who’s here

I think it’s a mistake for a country to reward lawbreaking, regardless of how well-intentioned. What are they, then, to think of any other laws; that they only matter if one gets caught?

 

[Ridgerunner]

What about the harm he’s done, much of which is in violation of Catholic teachings

Tell us what harm he has done. No myths, please. Real, tangible harm.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I don’t think it’s that we who support him think he’s perfect ,we know he isn’t.Its more at least for me, a matter of supporting him in spite of the relentless attacks that he has endured since even before taking office. If those opposed to his policies were more judicious in their criticisms they might actually get some validity.As it is now everything is a negative re Trump and it’s falling on deaf ears
Additionally,if anyone outside of his supporters ever would give him credit for the good he’s done then too the criticism would be received differently

I don’t see how any potential future Repub candidate can think it’s a good idea to run for president. And perhaps that’s at least part of the point of all of this. I don’t believe the Dems or their media or their embedded bureaucrats would have treated any other Republican better unless he was their lapdog. After all, they didn’t treat Kavanaugh any better or more fairly than they did Clarence Thomas; and perhaps worse.

 

[Convert3]

I think it’s a mistake for a country to reward lawbreaking, regardless of how well-intentioned. What are they, then, to think of any other laws; that they only matter if one gets caught?

I think we need to consider moral law, not only civil law. But ultimately the civil law should be changed, and would have to be to give them residency.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think we need to consider moral law, not only civil law. But ultimately the civil law should be changed, and would have to be to give them residency.

Does the moral law say the wages of Americans should be maintained at a lower than necessary level in order to accommodate illegal immigrants?

The civil law regarding lawful entry and residence is dead. It no longer exists. Our borders are open to the world, and so is employment.

 

[Convert3]

This is a problem that began long before Trump. It’s wrong to blame it any one President or political party. No one has handled it well.

 

[Convert3]

Does the moral law say the wages of Americans should be maintained at a lower than necessary level in order to accommodate illegal immigrants?

There are many jobs that have been offered to Americans that can’t be filled because Americans don’t want to work that hard, even if the pay is good. If people want to work, let them.