Why Accept Joseph Smith?

[vickimonica]

I see.

So, when I hear someone say 'Catholics are fine, moral and upstanding people…" I should simply look at Ireland and the late scandals in the USA and 'shake my head?"

The thing is, Viki, you can’t blame the belief system for the actions of those who break the rules…and you need to watch the double standard.

You are a disgusting and vile person. Anyone who compares religion to things such as sex, and more specifically, when a woman has her period is disgusting and vile. Like many others on here, I will put you on ignore.

 

[vickimonica]

I’m afraid you might have misunderstood. This post was in response to a statement that Utah has the highest rate of multi level marketing companies than any other state.

We weren’t really discussing the theft. But yes, I know that was quite a story, and still is.

Actually, I was responding to post #586. I wanted to make everyone aware that there WAS indeed theft involved. I was a mormon for 22 years, and when I read over & over on this forum what fine and upstanding people all mormons are, I just shake my head. As I said in the initial post re: this, Not All are fine and upstanding…

 

[lax16]

Is it fair to say, then, Mormons reject the account of Emma finding them together in the barn, much to her surprise?

I don’t know if it ever happened. Who are the witnesses? Emma? Joseph? and Fanny? Who else would have seen it? I haven’t seen any proof that Emma blabbed about what she saw, if she saw. It would need Emma to blab about it. The incident was reported by an excommunicated member:

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Fanny_Alger_and_William_McLellin

Can William McLellin be believed? Perhaps not.

I don’t know if McLellin can be believed. There’s obviously more reading to be done to determine that. If Emma did see and chose to talk about her husband’s infidelity, I wouldn’t call it “blabbing”, by the way.

Did JS marry Fanny Alger? Was Emma asked about this first?
I keep going back to the question of whether or not relationships started THEN the wife was made aware or were wives part of the decision in plural marriages BEFORE a relationship began?

 

[lax16]

Difficult to say. I am sure that there is some truth in it. But the history of the LDS church was not written by Joseph Smith. Most of the history was written after his murder. He was not around to confirm or deny it or edit it.

Usually, a history is written AFTER events have taken place. I wouldn’t think JS would write a history about himself or his church while he was alive.

What is the official ruling on the accuracy of the History of the Church vol 5?
Who was it written by?

 

[twopekinguys]

I will find other articles, when I have time (not now), that I have read that indicated the statistical issue you raised about Utah is isolated to very tiny population areas in the state. These things have been able to be pin-pointed using the very techniques that led to the study you cited.

Any luck with this yet?

 

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t know if McLellin can be believed. There’s obviously more reading to be done to determine that. If Emma did see and chose to talk about her husband’s infidelity, I wouldn’t call it “blabbing”, by the way.

Did JS marry Fanny Alger? Was Emma asked about this first?
I keep going back to the question of whether or not relationships started THEN the wife was made aware or were wives part of the decision in plural marriages BEFORE a relationship began?

lax16, I recommend going through the biographies at the website wivesofjosephsmith.org. Also, picking up Todd Compton’s book, “In Sacred Loneliness: The Wives of Joseph Smith”.

To answer your question, no, Emma was not asked first. Which is in direct violation of LDS scripture. (D&C 132) Which incidently, also contains a canonized threat against Emma for not going along with Smith’s adulterous affairs.

So in essence, no Emma was not asked, when she found out, she was threatened with divine retribution if she didn’t go along. This is what LDS call “a test of faith”.

 

[twopekinguys]

Actually, I was responding to post #586. I wanted to make everyone aware that there WAS indeed theft involved. I was a mormon for 22 years, and when I read over & over on this forum what fine and upstanding people all mormons are, I just shake my head. As I said in the initial post re: this, Not All are fine and upstanding…

Gotcha!! I totally see where you’re coming from now

 

[AtticusFinch]

I see.

So, when I hear someone say 'Catholics are fine, moral and upstanding people…" I should simply look at Ireland and the late scandals in the USA and 'shake my head?"

The thing is, Viki, you can’t blame the belief system for the actions of those who break the rules…and you need to watch the double standard.

the difference is, Catholics do not justify and make excuses for those criminal acts when all Mormons can do is justify and make excuses for Joseph and other LDS criminal acts

 

[RebeccaJ]

the difference is, Catholics do not justify and make excuses for those criminal acts when all Mormons can do is justify and make excuses for Joseph and other LDS criminal acts

This is true. But I don’t see, or hear of, any mormons defending the mormon ponzi-schemers. I don’t see them speaking out against them either. Just sort of ignored, and hopefully it will all go away.

They don’t go away. Unfortunately UT is very lucrative location for con artists. LDS are the main victims. One guy recently, who had a major ponzi scheme going (in the millions), used a ward directory to write in the margins how much money people had given him.

 

[why_me]

the difference is, Catholics do not justify and make excuses for those criminal acts when all Mormons can do is justify and make excuses for Joseph and other LDS criminal acts

What criminal acts? Now I do know that in Wisconsin, a priest molested countless deaf boys. What excuses can be given for that? And yet, no one disciplined that priest and he was allowed to molest more boys. Now that is criminal, not just for the priest but for those who covered it all up.

But it was a nice try in generalizing in your post.

 

[SteveVH]

I see.

So, when I hear someone say 'Catholics are fine, moral and upstanding people…" I should simply look at Ireland and the late scandals in the USA and 'shake my head?"

The thing is, Viki, you can’t blame the belief system for the actions of those who break the rules…and you need to watch the double standard.

I agree with you completely Diana. In fact, this discussion seems unhealthy to me. We are all sinners. I don’t go to Church because I am holy, but becasue I completely rely on God’s mercy to save me from my sins. I know plenty of wonderful Mormons and plenty of really poor Catholics. The majority in both camps are mostly very good people. I would hate to have the Catholic faith measured in terms of personal holiness of its members. I don’t think anyone has a corner on that market.

 

[why_me]

I don’t know if McLellin can be believed. There’s obviously more reading to be done to determine that. If Emma did see and chose to talk about her husband’s infidelity, I wouldn’t call it “blabbing”, by the way.

Did JS marry Fanny Alger? Was Emma asked about this first?
I keep going back to the question of whether or not relationships started THEN the wife was made aware or were wives part of the decision in plural marriages BEFORE a relationship began?

Well, the story came from McLellin, an apostate with an axe to grind. I don’t think that emma was the type to talk about such things. But McLellin certainly had a motive…to be famous for 15 minutes.

You can do your own research for your questions. Search the mormon sites and the antimormon sites. However, as I have shown , antimormons will pick up on any story that paints Joseph Smith in a bad light. In this case a story by an apostate. And of course, no critic mentions that it came from an apostate.

 

[dianaiad]

You are a disgusting and vile person. Anyone who compares religion to things such as sex, and more specifically, when a woman has her period is disgusting and vile. Like many others on here, I will put you on ignore.

uhm…what?

I don’t see where I mentioned anything anywhere about a woman’s menstrual cycle…or what on earth that would have to do with anything.

The point is, Viki, when you talk about how awful all Mormons are because some of them have been dishonest or have broken the law, you are putting yourself, and ALL Catholics, in a bind–because if all Mormons are horrific people because of pyramid schemes that some have fallen for/perpetrated, then what does that say about “All Catholics” because of the recent pedophile/sex scandals in the Catholic church?

If you have paid any attention at all to what I HAVE said about those, you would know better. I actually come down rather hard on those who say that Catholics as a whole are tainted because of the sex scandals…because they are not.

If you had paid any attention, you would know that my position is that the priest pedophiles are not the fault of the Catholic church. It’s quite the other way around; pedophiles, who are evil in themselves, seek out positions where they have access to victims–it is BECAUSE the Catholic priesthood is such a force for good and guidance that pedophiles find it a fertile hunting ground, and innocent priests and their supervisors simply don’t know what to do with the sort of evil that is taking advantage of them and their organization.

It happens to everybody.

My POINT was that for exactly the same reasons you cannot taint all Catholics with the evil commited by those who are victimizing them, you cannot taint all Mormons as evil because a few of them like pyramid schemes. Indeed, given the relative difference between the seriousness of the situations, it is especially stupid of any Catholic to say 'all Mormons are evil," or “Mormonism is evil” BECAUSE some Mormons are.

You all should know better than that. You all, of all the peoples of the religious community, should understand to your bones that the actions of a few do NOT taint the whole.

You cannot blame the belief system for the actions of those who break its rules.

Not Catholicism…

And not Mormonism.

 

[dianaiad]

I agree with you completely Diana. In fact, this discussion seems unhealthy to me. We are all sinners. I don’t go to Church because I am holy, but becasue I completely rely on God’s mercy to save me from my sins. I know plenty of wonderful Mormons and plenty of really poor Catholics. The majority in both camps are mostly very good people. I would hate to have the Catholic faith measured in terms of personal holiness of its members. I don’t think anyone has a corner on that market.

Whew.

Thanks, Steve. After Viki’s response to my post, I was beginning to wonder if I was writing in a different language. I am very glad to see an agreement on this!

 

[lax16]

Well, the story came from McLellin, an apostate with an axe to grind. I don’t think that emma was the type to talk about such things. But McLellin certainly had a motive…to be famous for 15 minutes.

You can do your own research for your questions. Search the mormon sites and the antimormon sites. However, as I have shown , antimormons will pick up on any story that paints Joseph Smith in a bad light. In this case a story by an apostate. And of course, no critic mentions that it came from an apostate.

Well, whyme, I am asking you and the other Mormons on this thread these questions for good reason. No matter what I ask/say, I am often accused of only reading anti-Mormon sites and already having my mind made up.

So, in order not to do that, I will continue to ask questions of you and the others to get the LDS point of view, and therefore, cannot be accused of putting my own spin on it. I am putting my “research” on hold so that I cannot be accused of believing anti’s.

Thanks!

 

[hosemonkey]

uhm…what?

I don’t see where I mentioned anything anywhere about a woman’s menstrual cycle…or what on earth that would have to do with anything.

Well said! And I also agree.

 

[sablouwho]

Whew.

Thanks, Steve. After Viki’s response to my post, I was beginning to wonder if I was writing in a different language. I am very glad to see an agreement on this!

I agree too, Diana, with you and Steve. I too was confused by Viki’s post. I am thinking she may have gotten Diana confused with some other poster.

 

[lax16]

What criminal acts? Now I do know that in Wisconsin, a priest molested countless deaf boys. What excuses can be given for that? And yet, no one disciplined that priest and he was allowed to molest more boys. Now that is criminal, not just for the priest but for those who covered it all up.

But it was a nice try in generalizing in your post.

I know it very tempting to want to bring up the priest sex abuse scandal that has happened in the Catholic Church and is now in the news. It should be discussed and debated and I encourage you to go onto one of the several threads that are talking about this.

This is a huge discussion and will not be well served on a thread about Joseph Smith. There is way too much information and I know it deserves way more attention then just a sound byte.

btw, satan is rejoicing in this. All of Christianity should stand united against him.

 

[why_me]

I know it very tempting to want to bring up the priest sex abuse scandal that has happened in the Catholic Church and is now in the news. It should be discussed and debated and I encourage you to go onto one of the several threads that are talking about this.

This is a huge discussion and will not be well served on a thread about Joseph Smith. There is way too much information and I know it deserves way more attention then just a sound byte.

btw, satan is rejoicing in this. All of Christianity should stand united against him.

You will need to talk with Mr. Finch. He brought it up by making a comparison between the wrong acts of catholics and mormons. And yes, satan is rejoicing but he has been rejoicing for quite a long time, especially when catholics post contentious, negative posts about the lds church.

 

[SteveVH]

Whew.

Thanks, Steve. After Viki’s response to my post, I was beginning to wonder if I was writing in a different language. I am very glad to see an agreement on this!

Diana, you seem to have a very healthy view on this. Viki is way off on this one and as a Catholic I don’t appreciate her comments one bit. Her attitude kind of flies in the face of the very point she was trying to make.

God bless you.

Steve