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Newbie2
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Especially lately, the Anglicans. Nothing like a good rift to urge them “back to Rome”.
We got a little bump from the rift in the ELCA too.
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We got a little bump from the rift in the ELCA too.
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LowOiL
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I didn’t say I was a dude or dudette, like the rest of your post, your just speculating… The odds that they just picked that “word” are about as probable as genetic material forming life in a puddle billions of years ago. It was picked for a reason and you know it.
i50.tinypic.com/nl3j2r.jpg
That is my actual page to register about 10 minutes ago and was my first and only registration.
Back on subject… NonCatholic as myself don’t dislike Mary whatsoever (you may change your title, but your original post shows original content meaning)… Mary was picked by God, that shows that as the Bible explains that her name will be remember in relevance forever. But proper relevance does not up her status to being head of parade with millions of folks parading behind her praying to her. She asked Jesus (before his time) to make wine, Jesus obeyed his mother as the Bible teaches us to show respect, but he was also quick to point out that she was not to take advantage of him (before his time). Jesus also showed respect when on the cross he (as was Jewish custom of the time) took care of his mother (appointed a careperson).
Of course most Protestants such as myself also don’t believe Mary was a virgin forever and that Joseph was a husband in sexual relations after the birth of Jesus. We don’t believe Joseph was 90 years old and Mary just 12-14 when they were married. We don’t find that information in the Bible and don’t rely on “sacred books” outside the Bible.
But most nonCatholics do still hold Mary high above your average Jane, because she was chosen, but not because she takes deity status as many on this forum seem to imply.
I think the LCMS will, too.Especially lately, the Anglicans. Nothing like a good rift to urge them “back to Rome”.
I still contend that the biggest concern the Lutheran reformers had, and that I have, is not that the marian doctrines (even invocation) do or don’t have scriptural support, but that they are a required belief, that a believer’s concsience is bound to it. We understand the difference between mediator of intercession (Mary), and mediator of salvation (Christ alone). So long as these things are not confused, and no one is required to believe or practice invocation, these things should not be Church dividing
Jon
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pismopal
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Yes…that is my personal assessment…I guess I should have mentioned that. Since you mentioned 3 which are 'closest" to Catholic…what about the other tens of thousands of denoms? There are usually a few exceptions but what about the rule?
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Lutheranteach
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I think you will find most non-Catholics are uncomfortable when anyone other than God/Jesus is given the power to be omniscient or omnipresent
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ahollars
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Now that’s paranoid! :hypno:
As for the rest of your post, our understanding of Our Lady comes from the role of a certain woman in Scripture. There is the woman clothed with the sun. You might want to review that passage before you reduce Mary’s role to a handful of events.
Revelation 12 (New International Version)
You cannot ignore the writings of the Early Church Fathers if you want to believe that you are worshiping the same way that the early Christians did before the Bible itself was even assembled. Read what they had to say regarding Our Mother.
Why do Catholics always talk about the Early Church Fathers (Apostolic Fathers)?
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Whitacre_Girl
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For the record, catholics make no claim that Mary is in anyway omniscient or omnipresent…
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peary1
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Well first, I don’t consider any of them demons, if in fact you are implying that those noncatholic Christians are such. Unless I misunderstand your statement, I would consider that as improper as the charge that Catholics “worship” Mary.
Secondly, one could only discuss this as a “rule” if one considers Protestants as a singular entity, which they are not. Lutherans have no more say or control over what Baptists, for example, believe, than Catholics do. This is the problem with the term Protestant, in that it leads to this misunderstanding. There is no rule here.
Jon
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peary1
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Then there should be *no hope *that we will share in the same as sons of God once we are resurrected. Why should we have hope? Because we are adopted to Christ through he Spirit. Everything about Marian doctrines protects a Truth about Christ and our salvation.
For example, the Immaculate Conception tells us that Mary was born without the stain of Original Sin on her soul so that God could bring forth Himself through Her. We experience the same when we are baptized and the Spirit moves within us.
The Assumption tells us that sin separates us in death and is the cause of death. By the Lord allowing Mary to assume into Heaven - both body and soul - is the prefigurement of what will happen to us on the Last Day. This is not due to her own omniscience or omnipresence (if that were possible) any more than our own, but to the power of Christ.
There is quite a bit of misunderstanding with regard as to why the Church defines certain doctrines with regard to Mary. It is, again, to protect the Truth of Christ and of cour salvation.
I don’t think even that was the nature of the disagreement in the Apology. And much of the disagreement had to do with the abuse of invocation, which, more so now, the Catholic Church distances itself from.
bookofconcord.org/defense_20_saints.php
Jon
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AmateurPianist
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But when you have a person in heaven who listens and responds to all prayers directed to her from all four corners of the globe, it does seem like omniscience and omnipresence.
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AmericanJosiah
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Ah. Then perhaps you too are wondering about the one billion + “non-Catholic Christians” (including all Orthodox Christians and the Protestants) and this claim that they are all “indifferent” toward Mary.
I’m still looking for the substantiation for this claim; it seems moot to discuss a point if there is zero evidence for it.
Where is the evidence that all non-Catholic Christians are “indifferent” toward Her - a number in excess of one billion, including all Orthodox and Protestant Christians.
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izoid
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You sir are obnoxious. Is your entire purpose here to cause trouble? If so, please leave. YOu did this same thing on the original thread and now you do it again. You are a broken record and where I come from, we throw away broken records. Next time, try to add to the conversation.
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Newbie2
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I’m quite sure that everyone here doesn’t believe that “all” of the non-Catholic Christians are indifferent towards Mary. You can stop asking for the evidence now, we get the point.
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peary1
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Hey, AJ, you pulled the same drivel in the other thread forum. The other forum was called “Why Do NonCatholics dislike Mary?” All you have done is substitue the word ‘dislike’ with ‘indifferent’ now, and are still arguing about the same irrelevant stuff you did on the other thread. From this point forward you are going on my ignore list because the same nonsense you pulled in the other thread you are doing here. I suggest others do the same.
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AmericanJosiah
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It’s not my thread.
I didn’t start it.
I didn’t “substitute” anything for anything.
I’m doing what we are suppose to do: Discuss the question or point of the thread.
Read the title of this thread, it defines the question we are to discuss.
It is this: “Why are non-Catholic Christians indifferent to Mary?”
Since there is a rule here about not hijacking threads, THAT is what we are to discuss.
The position is that non-Catholic Christians are indifferent to Mary.
Who are non-Catholic Christians? Well, they number in excess of one billion.
Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox - all the various other Orthodox…
Protestants of all types (including me - and all those posting in this and the other thread)
Roughly half of all Christians in the world.
Seems to me if we are going to discuss a position, the first thing on the agenda is to discuss if the position is correct. How can we discuss why those one billion Christians are all indifferent to Mary unless we can document that all of them ARE?
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AmericanJosiah
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- Can we discuss if the whole premise of the thread is correct? If so, that IS what I’m doing. IF we MUST accept that the premise is correct and can ONLY post what are the reasons why all one billion non-Catholics are indifferent, then I don’t find that impossible to discuss since it’s simply not the case. I can’t discuss why all non-Catholics are indifferent to Our Lady any more than I can discuss why all Americans ride horses to work.
- While this “re-do” thread is better, it still is the same sweeping, incorrect and to a great extent offensive point made by some Catholics - how we hate Mary (or soften that to “dislike” or “indifferent toward.”). In the orginal (and more typical form) there was at least one, maybe two, Catholics who posted to protest the premise as simply a FALSEHOOD. Look, if I were to post, “Why do all Catholics worship Mary?” Or “Why do all Catholics think they are justified by their good works instead of Jesus?” I wouldn’t be TOO surprised if you would object to the premise, the question itself - but actually, you’d have PROTESTANTS (including me) protesting the thread and its premise, stating the question cannot be discussed because the premise of it is wrong. You MIGHT be correct and the original poster was entirely unaware of the original thread here (although the opening post here strongly suggests otherwise), and simply poorly worded the question; that IS a possibility. My suggestion in such cases is to ask Staff to close the thread and start a new one - one based on at least a honest, respectful understanding of the situation. IF the opening poster wanted Protestants to share their views of Mary - that might have been constructive and a good discussion for us. But telling all the world’s Greek Orthodox that they are indifferent to Mary - and then “asking” why they all are they, is not a good approach - to conversation or understanding (or perhaps even to the sixth commandment and the Great Commandment?). But, what is most revealing to me, is that while is suspect SOME Catholics here had the EXACT SAME reaction to the title and issue of this thread as I did, and in spite of my TRYING to get them to speak up, they instead defended it. Just as in the original thread with the more popular claim (that Protestants dislike or hate Her).
Josiah,
It is often the case that there is a tendency to generalize about Protestants. It usually takes a reminder, normally a gentle one, to straighten it out. I think you and I have already done so.
No sense belaboring the point, in my view. 
Jon
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Lutheranteach
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Do you believe Mary knows the things in your heart?
Do you believe Mary can hear your prayers even if said silently?
Do you believe Mary can hear only one prayer at a time from one place and one individual…or can she hear thousands of silent prayers offered from all over the world?
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