Why are nonCatholic Christians indifferent to Mary?

[Whitacre_Girl]

But when you have a person in heaven who listens and responds to all prayers directed to her from all four corners of the globe, it does seem like omniscience and omnipresence.

I can see how it would seem like omniscience but when deali g with Mary we have to remember that she is in heaven. She is in an exalted state and a different state than ours. Is it possible that in our exalted state in heaven we can percieve more than we do now? I certaiy don’t rule that out. Mary is not all knowing or everywhere at once. She exists in heaven and in her exalted state it seems apparent that god has given her and others the ability to, in some way, be mindful of our prayers and petitions to her. She doesn’t have the same powers as God, rather any extra perception she may have has been given to her by God.

 

[peary1]

Do you believe Mary knows the things in your heart?

Mary knows the things in my heart because She is in Heaven with the Lord and the Saints.

Do you believe Mary can hear your prayers even if said silently?

If Christ is in us, and if we are all within the Body of Christ, and make up the body of Christ, then whether in Heaven or on earth, we are connected in Christ. As Mary is the Mother of the Church, yes, if I am in a state of grace, she can hear my prayers to her, even if said silently.

Do you believe Mary can hear only one prayer at a time from one place and one individual…or can she hear thousands of silent prayers offered from all over the world?

She is in Heaven with the Lord. What do YOU think? Does that mean she is “cut off” from the Body of Christ on earth? Show me in the Bible where that is stated.

 

[adelore]

I have been pondering this question. My answer…

I’m not sure they are “indifferent” to Mary.

I just think they don’t Know her as well as we (Catholics) do. We look deep into the Scripture about her and pause to think about what the Scripture says. Not just the words, but the very “meanning and examples” of the Scriptures. /SIZE] We also look into the History of the World at the time.

As someone pointed out…there isn’t a lot about Mary in the Bible…

But…

If a person was to Really Read the Bible where you find her in Scripture…and then really take the time to digest, or really take in the meaning of the words…

All Non-Catholics would come away with a clearer understanding of Mary.

 

[grace_singh]

adelore:

If a person was to Really Read the Bible where you find her in Scripture…and then really take the time to digest, or really take in the meaning of the words…

All Non-Catholics would come away with a clearer understanding of Mary.

well, what Scripture tells us about Mary is that she was a descendant of David, a young woman engaged to be married to a man from David’s line, that she was chosen by God to bear the Saviour, that she was blessed, that she raised the child Jesus, witnessed a number of His miracles and much of His public ministry, was present at the crucifixion, and spoke to her Son while He hung on the cross.

yet none of those facts about Mary give us any indications that we are to pray to, venerate, or revere her. Jesus says that we are to honor Him as we honor the Father, and points to Himself as God made Man, and worthy of our worship and adoration and attention. what He says of His mother and to His mother are as follows (in part):

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, His mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to Him. Someone told Him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” He replied to him, “Who is My mother, and who are My brothers?” Pointing to His disciples, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers. For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” (Matthew 12:46-50)

His parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. And when He was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem according to the custom of the feast. When they had finished the days, as they returned, the Boy Jesus lingered behind in Jerusalem. And Joseph and His mother[l] did not know it; but supposing Him to have been in the company, they went a day’s journey, and sought Him among their relatives and acquaintances. So when they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking Him. Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously.” And He said to them, “Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?” But they did not understand the statement which He spoke to them.Then He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was subject to them, but His mother kept all these things in her heart. (Luke 2: 41-51)

And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” (Luke 11:27-28)

On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.”Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.” Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” And they filled them up to the brim… (John 2:1-7)

Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. (John 19:25-27)

now, nothing in these passages indicates that we are to venerate or pray to Mary, or that Mary can in any way save us or help us spiritually. she was and is a blessed and unique woman, chosen by God to bear the Saviour into the world. she had the amazing privilege of being the eye-witness to Jesus’ entire life, from His first cry to His final breath, and of being called His mother.

yet it is Christ who saves, Christ who died, and Christ who rose again, who alone is to be honored as the Father is honored, and who as God is worthy of our worshipful veneration, and prayers. so that is why i direct my attention spiritually to Christ and of course to the Father, my Creator, and not to Mary, or any other saint or blessed person.

 

[Hesychios]

I decided on a different approach to the ‘dislike’ thread. I am not using that word. The word I am choosing instead is ‘indifferent’. By the use of this word I mean having no bias, prejudice, or preference; impartial; disinterested. Keeping this in mind now, the question becomes: why are nonCatholic Christians indifferent to Mary, the mother of Jesus?

I have a theory that it is because not much is known of her beyond the scripture references. We have some apocryphal writings (the Pro-Gospel of James being the most important) which simply cannot be vouched for complete accuracy.

Saint Mary of Nazareth, then, is an historic figure behind the story of Jesus of Nazareth, about whom little can be known with certainty.

We likewise do not know much about the mother of Alexander the Great, nor the mother of Marcus Aurelius. Nor for that matter the mothers of Aristotle, Qin Shi Huang, Śākyamuni, Kong Qiu or Moses. For all of these important historical personages having a mother is a given fact, and we can appreciate their roles in the lives of their sons. But there is really very little one can say about them with accuracy, that is relevant to their sons later lives.

A lot of what people around the world actually think they know about the Holy Theotokos (Saint Mary) cannot be traced to an Apostolic origin. Therefore it is difficult to preach on these things with the kind of certainty and forcefulness that we have about Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity of God.

What we do know, or can assume, is that she herself would point us directly to her son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and step aside in deference to Him. She is a lighthouse on the way to the port of Jesus, if it is bright enough and clear enough some boats will not refer to the lighthouse, but it is good to know she is there when needed.

http://www.theotokos.org/images/ChurchIcons/04-TheHolyVirginMary-B.jpg

Virgin, rejoice, Mary full of grace,
the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
for thou hast borne Christ the Savior,
the Deliverer of our souls.

 

[peary1]

MARY’S QUEENSHIP, PART ONE

What we DO know here in the West, is that devotion to Mary had its initial beginnings with the early Jewish Christians who saw in the Church the New Israel and Christ as the New King, Eternal. In the Davidic Kingdom (very important to the Jews, by the way), it was the mother of the king who was queen, not his wife. In the Church, Jesus is King and His mother is Queen. This is quite biblical.

A number of Old Testament passages reflect the important role of the queen mother in the Davidic kingdom. For example, almost every time the narrative of 1 and 2 Kings introduces a new monarch in Judah, it mentions the king’s mother as well, showing the mother’s intimate involvement in her royal son’s reign. Similarly, the queen mother is listed among the members of the royal court whom king Jehoiachin surrendered to the king of Babylon in 2 Kings 24:12.

Her royal office is also described by the prophet Jeremiah, who tells how the queen mother possessed a throne and a crown, symbolic of her position of authority in the kingdom: “Say to the king and the queen mother: ‘Take a lowly seat, for your beautiful crown has come down from your head. . . . Lift up your eyes and see those who come from the north. Where is the flock that was given you, your beautiful flock?’” (Jer. 13:18, 20). It is significant that God directed this oracle about the upcoming fall of Judah to both the king and his mother. Addressing both king and queen mother, Jeremiah portrays her as sharing in her son’s rule over the kingdom.

Probably the clearest example of the queen mother’s role is that of Bathsheba, wife of David and mother of Solomon. Scholars have noted the excellence of Bathsheba’s position in the kingdom once she became queen mother during Solomon’s rule. Compare the humble attitude of Bathsheba as spouse of King David (1 Kgs. 1:16–17, 31) with her majestic dignity as mother of the next king, Solomon (1 Kgs. 2:19–20). As spouse of the king, Bathsheba bows with her face to the ground and does obeisance to her husband, David, upon entering his royal chamber. In striking contrast, after her son Solomon assumed the throne and she became queen mother, Bathsheba receives a glorious reception upon meeting with her royal son:

“So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. Then she said, ‘I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.’ And the king said to her, ‘Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you’” (1 Kgs. 2:19–20).

This account reveals the sovereign prerogatives of the queen mother. Note how the king rises and bows as she enters. Bathsheba’s seat at the king’s right hand has the greatest significance. In the Bible, the right hand is the place of ultimate honor. This is seen in particular in the messianic Psalm 110 (“Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool”). In fact, many New Testament passages refer to the right-hand imagery of Psalm 110 to show Christ’s divinity and his reign with the Father over the whole universe (e.g., Hebrews 1:13). Thus, the queen mother sitting at the king’s right hand symbolizes her sharing in the king’s royal authority and illustrates how she holds the most important position in the kingdom, second only to the king.

This passage regarding Bathsheba also shows how the queen mother served as an advocate for the people, carrying petitions to the king. In 1 Kings 2:17, Adonijah asks Bathsheba to take a petition for him to King Solomon. He says to her: “Pray ask King Solomon—he will not refuse you—to give me Abishag the Shunammite as my wife” (1 Kgs. 2:17). It is clear that Adonijah recognizes the queen mother’s position of influence over the king, so he confidently turns to Bathsheba as an intercessor for his request.

A few Old Testament prophecies incorporate the queen mother tradition when telling of the future Messiah. One example is Isaiah 7:14, which originated during a time of dynastic crisis in Judah when Syria and Israel were threatening Jerusalem and plotting to overthrow King Ahaz. God offers Ahaz a sign that the kingdom will continue: “Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also? Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Emmanuel” (Isa. 7:13–14).

 

[peary1]

MARY’S QUEENSHIP, PART TWO

On one level, this passage points to the next king (Hezekiah) as a pledge that the Davidic dynasty will continue despite the threats of invading armies. At the same time, the royal son who is to be named “Emmanuel” points to the future messianic king (cf., Isa. 9:6–7, 11:1–2). This is why the New Testament says Jesus fulfills this prophecy from Isaiah (Matt. 1:23).

For our purposes we should note how this prophecy links the mother to her royal son. Since the oracle is addressed specifically to the Davidic household and concerns the continuation of the dynasty, the young woman bearing forth the royal son would be understood as a queen mother. This has implications for our understanding of Mary. Since the mother of the king always ruled as queen mother, we should expect to find the mother of the messianic king playing the role of the true queen mother in the everlasting Kingdom of God.

With this Old Testament background, we can now more clearly see how the New Testament portrays Mary in light of the queen mother tradition.

The Gospel of Matthew has often been called the “Gospel of the Kingdom.” Matthew emphasizes that Jesus is “the Son of David,” who is the true King of the Jews establishing the “Kingdom of Heaven.” With all this kingly imagery, it should not be surprising to find queen mother themes as well.

Right away, Matthew shows explicitly how the infant Jesus is the “Emmanuel” child as prophesied in Isaiah 7:14 (Matt. 1:23). As we saw above, this prophecy links the royal messianic child with his queen mother. Further, Matthew singles out the intimate relationship between the mother and her royal son by using the phrase “the child and his mother” five times in the first two chapters, recalling the close association between queen mother and royal son as described in the Books of Kings. Just as the queen mother was constantly mentioned alongside the Judean kings in 1 and 2 Kings, so Mary is frequently mentioned alongside her royal son, Jesus, in Matthew’s infancy narrative (Matt. 1:18; 2:11, 13, 14, 20, 21).

We find Mary portrayed against the background of Davidic kingdom motifs in Luke’s Gospel as well, especially in his accounts of the Annunciation and Visitation. First, the angel Gabriel is said to appear to a virgin betrothed to a man “of the house of David” (1:27). Then the angel tells Mary, “And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there will be no end” (Luke 1:31–33).

Hear the strong Davidic overtones describing Mary and her royal son: a woman from the house of David giving birth to a son who will be the new king whose reign will never end. With echoes from the queen mother tradition of the Davidic kingdom and the mother-son prophecy of Isaiah 7:14, we can conclude that Mary is being given the vocation of queen mother.

Mary’s royal office is made even more explicit in Luke’s account of the Visitation. Elizabeth greets Mary with the title “the mother of my Lord” (Luke 1:43). This title is charged with great queenly significance. In the royal court language of the ancient NearEast, the title “Mother of my Lord” was used to address the queen mother of the reigning king (who himself was addressed as “my Lord”; cf., 2 Sam. 24:21). Thus with this title Elizabeth is recognizing the great dignity of Mary’s role as the royal mother of the king, Jesus.

Finally, Mary’s queenship can be seen in the great vision described in Revelation 12: “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery” (Rev. 12:1–2). Who is this newborn child? He is described as the messianic king exercising his dominion. In verse 5, the author of Revelation chose the messianic Psalm 2 to describe how this child will “rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (Rev. 12:5, Ps. 2:9). This royal son is taken up to heaven to sit on a throne (Rev. 12:5), and he ushers in the kingdom of God by defeating the devil: “Now the kingdom of our God has come, for the accuser has been throne down” (12:10). Certainly, this newborn child is the royal Messiah, King Jesus.

-compliments of Catholic Answers, Is Mary’s Queenship Biblical? By Edward P. Sri

 

[JonNC]

I have a theory that it is because not much is known of her beyond the scripture references. We have some apocryphal writings (the Pro-Gospel of James being the most important) which simply cannot be vouched for complete accuracy.

Saint Mary of Nazareth, then, is an historic figure behind the story of Jesus of Nazareth, about whom little can be known with certainty.

We likewise do not know much about the mother of Alexander the Great, nor the mother of Marcus Aurelius. Nor for that matter the mothers of Aristotle, Qin Shi Huang, Śākyamuni, Kong Qiu or Moses. For all of these important historical personages having a mother is a given fact, and we can appreciate their roles in the lives of their sons. But there is really very little one can say about them with accuracy, that is relevant to their sons later lives.

A lot of what people around the world actually think they know about the Holy Theotokos (Saint Mary) cannot be traced to an Apostolic origin. Therefore it is difficult to preach on these things with the kind of certainty and forcefulness that we have about Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity of God.

What we do know, or can assume, is that she herself would point us directly to her son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and step aside in deference to Him. She is a lighthouse on the way to the port of Jesus, if it is bright enough and clear enough some boats will not refer to the lighthouse, but it is good to know she is there when needed.

http://www.theotokos.org/images/ChurchIcons/04-TheHolyVirginMary-B.jpg

Virgin, rejoice, Mary full of grace,
the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
for thou hast borne Christ the Savior,
the Deliverer of our souls.

As usual, Michael, well said.
And what a beautiful song of praise the “Virgin, rejoice” is.

Jon

 

[Libertarian_FL]

She is the mother of Jesus so is important as the vessel of God, but is not divine or flawless like her child so is as much a Saint as any other believer in Christ, you or me or the poorest begger in the street that accepted Him.

I and most do admire her as a fine role-model for young girls and women and do think highly of her in her virtues.

 

[peary1]

*Originally Posted by ***Hesychios **

I have a theory that it is because not much is known of her beyond the scripture references. We have some apocryphal writings (the Pro-Gospel of James being the most important) which simply cannot be vouched for complete accuracy.

That is true. However, next to Christ Himself, the next person in the Gospels who has been written about the most is His mother.

We likewise do not know much about the mother of Alexander the Great, nor the mother of Marcus Aurelius. Nor for that matter the mothers of Aristotle, Qin Shi Huang, Śākyamuni, Kong Qiu or Moses. For all of these important historical personages having a mother is a given fact, and we can appreciate their roles in the lives of their sons. But there is really very little one can say about them with accuracy, that is relevant to their sons later lives.

A lot of what people around the world actually think they know about the Holy Theotokos (Saint Mary) cannot be traced to an Apostolic origin. Therefore it is difficult to preach on these things with the kind of certainty and forcefulness that we have about Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity of God.

Actually, we know that the early Christians (Jews) particularly in Rome, saw in her the fulfillment of the Davidic Kingdom as the Queen Mother, the intercessor of the common people. They saw the Church as the New Israel, Christ as the Messiah and King, and Mary as Queen. It’s all there in Kings. All the Kings of Israel had their mother as the queen, never the wife. She therefore becomes our spiritual mother, and Mother of the Church.

What we do know, or can assume, is that she herself would point us directly to her son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and step aside in deference to Him. She is a lighthouse on the way to the port of Jesus, if it is bright enough and clear enough some boats will not refer to the lighthouse, but it is good to know she is there when needed.

As she herself told the servants, and as she herself continues to tell us in her appearances as Queen of the Prophets: : “Do whatever he tells you.” AMEN

 

[Publisher]

I am not “indifferent” to Mary…she is creature…my focus is on the Creator…on the Light Within…on the Presence. In so far as Mary exemplifies a life lived fully toward God’s purpose…then she would be an ideal to emulate…but to lift her to the exclusion of my focus on the Light, I don’t see how it would benefit my spiritual development.

I am not “indifferent” toward her…my focus is on her Son…he is all and in all…and as I’ve said before…if her intention is to point us toward her Son…then it is her Son I will focus on…the Creator…not the creature…I pay her great homage by lookinig toward her Son and fulfill her desire for me to do so. I can imagine she may have quoted her nephew John…“He must increase and I must decrease.”

 

[jericho777]

I have a question in the book of Revelations it shows the future and what will be going on in heaven. It shows the throne of G-d with Jesus sitting at His right hand surrounded by the 24 elders. There are the angels with six wings crying Holy Holy Holy. And those before the throne with garments washed in the blood of the Lamb. There is no mention of a Queen of Heaven present. Where would you propose she would be and why was she not mentioned or described in this detailed description of heaven? Just asking honestly because I don’t see it.

 

[peary1]

I have a question in the book of Revelations it shows the future and what will be going on in heaven. It shows the throne of G-d with Jesus sitting at His right hand surrounded by the 24 elders. There are the angels with six wings crying Holy Holy Holy. And those before the throne with garments washed in the blood of the Lamb. There is no mention of a Queen of Heaven present. Where would you propose she would be and why was she not mentioned or described in this detailed description of heaven? Just asking honestly because I don’t see it.

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. (Rev. 12:1-5)

Who is the writer talking about here? Martha Stewart?

 

[peary1]

*Originally Posted by ***jericho777 **
I have a question in the book of Revelations it shows the future and what will be going on in heaven. It shows the throne of G-d with Jesus sitting at His right hand surrounded by the 24 elders. There are the angels with six wings crying Holy Holy Holy. And those before the throne with garments washed in the blood of the Lamb. There is no mention of a Queen of Heaven present. Where would you propose she would be and why was she not mentioned or described in this detailed description of heaven? Just asking honestly because I don’t see it.

**Go study about the Davidic Kingdom and how the early Christians (who were Jews, by the way) believed that the Church was the New Israel, that Christ became the Eternal King of the Kingdom, and then, when you read the book of Kings, keep in mind that the queen mother - the intercessor of the common people to the King - was the *mother *of the king and that the queen was never the wife of the king. The analogy can’t be invisible to you!!

 

[jericho777]

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. (Rev. 12:1-5)

Who is the writer talking about here? Martha Stewart?

No the writer is identifying the woman as Israel. Verse 6 says The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. Thats 3 1/2 years. Let’s read a little farther verse 13-17 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

This future event takes place on the earth and shows the Lords’ protection for Israel and her children during the tribulation. The evidence of this scripture points to Isreal and not Mary. The woman in v5 is the same woman in v17. The events are satan going after Israel. Most scholors point to the ancient city of Petra as the possibly hiding place.

 

[tweetymom]

No the writer is identifying the woman as Israel. Verse 6 says The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. Thats 3 1/2 years. Let’s read a little farther verse 13-17 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

This future event takes place on the earth and shows the Lords’ protection for Israel and her children during the tribulation. The evidence of this scripture points to Isreal and not Mary. The woman in v5 is the same woman in v17. The events are satan going after Israel. Most scholors point to the ancient city of Petra as the possibly hiding place.

I studied Rev. and thank you for the reminder. It is great.

 

[peary1]

No the writer is identifying the woman as Israel. Verse 6 says The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. Thats 3 1/2 years. Let’s read a little farther verse 13-17 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

The woman who gives birth to the Child is Mary. And as if to prove the point, when She appeared as Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico, what was the image cast upon? A pregnant woman surrounded by the sun with the moon at her feet. Or is that all just made up?

As far as Israel goes, it can be borth/and. Remember that St. John went with Mary to Ephesus according to the Church’s ancient tradition. I am sure that he also had her in mind as well as her spiritual offspring.

This future event takes place on the earth and shows the Lords’ protection for Israel and her children during the tribulation. The evidence of this scripture points to Isreal and not Mary. The woman in v5 is the same woman in v17. The events are satan going after Israel. Most scholors point to the ancient city of Petra as the possibly hiding place.

 

[Hesychios]

** … However, next to Christ Himself, the next person in the Gospels who has been written about the most is His mother.**

I think that you would have to demonstrate that assertion.

I had always thought the the next person written about would have been Peter?

Actually, we know that the early Christians (Jews) particularly in Rome, saw in her the fulfillment of the Davidic Kingdom as the Queen Mother, the intercessor of the common people. They saw the Church as the New Israel, Christ as the Messiah and King, and Mary as Queen. It’s all there in Kings. All the Kings of Israel had their mother as the queen, never the wife. She therefore becomes our spiritual mother, and Mother of the Church.

You appear to be overreaching here.

These ideas are probably traceable back as far into the distant past as Scott Hahn, or David Curie or someone like that, I have studied a lot and have never come across these ideas in the early church.

In fact, it is a certainty that Saint Mary of Nazareth was alive on earth while the Apostles were teaching and preaching, they did not teach any such thing as ‘Mary as Queen’.

Of course, it is impossible to prove a negative, so I think that you should prove the positive.

Were you actually interested in an answer to your original question in post #1, or were you looking to start a debate?

Not being a Protestant myself, and having a personal high regard for the Holy Theotokos (singing her praises daily) I tried to be impartial in my answers because you gave the impression that you were interested in listening to some of the reasoning behind what appears to be ‘indifference’.

A lot of what I can say is still only speculation on my part. I cannot speak for everyone.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I decided on a different approach to the ‘dislike’ thread. I am not using that word. The word I am choosing instead is ‘indifferent’. By the use of this word I mean having no bias, prejudice, or preference; impartial; disinterested. Keeping this in mind now, the question becomes: why are nonCatholic Christians indifferent to Mary, the mother of Jesus?

I hope that by “nonCatholic Christians” you mean most Protestants.

Orthodox, Non-Chalcedonian Churches, and Assyrians yield to NONE in devotion to the Theotokos.

 

[dvdjs]

I have a theory that it is because not much is known of her beyond the scripture references. We have some apocryphal writings (the Pro-Gospel of James being the most important) which simply cannot be vouched for complete accuracy.
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A lot of what people around the world actually think they know about the Holy Theotokos (Saint Mary) cannot be traced to an Apostolic origin. Therefore it is difficult to preach on these things with the kind of certainty and forcefulness that we have about Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity of God.

Hmmm… What are the Apostolic teachings on the Trinity, in particular the Christological and Pneumatological theologies that occupied the church for much of its early history? Fortunately - except perhaps to the Mormons - the answer doesn’t matter.

Christ instituted a Church that through the guidance of the Holy Spirit grows in understanding, and thus has the capacity to speak with certainty and forcefulness on issues not specifically addressed by the Apostles. That includes our veneration of the Theotokos, whose appellation as Queen is not recent, but goes back to luminaries like John Damascene and Ephraim of Syria. If there is an indifference to the Theotokos among some in Orthodoxy, that is modern innovation.

Orthodox, Non-Chalcedonian Churches, and Assyrians yield to NONE in devotion to the Theotokos.

One would think so.