Why are people mormon considering it is obvioulsy fabricated?

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why_me said:
And yet, there is no independent testimony that Jesus performed his miracles. We only have the bible which was written long after the events mentioned. All is based on faith.

With the book of mormon we have 11 witnesses to the book of mormon who never denied what they saw and never denied their testimony.
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You are serious? Perhaps you truly need psychiatric help! 11 people saying ‘yup, I saw gold plates’ is in no way a serious testimony to events that supposedly happened over a thousand years before!

I could get thousands of people to say ‘Yes! I saw the bible being printed, it must be true!’

Get a grip and compare apples to apples.
 
zaffiroborant said:
And it is quite obvious from Mormon missionary efforts that they also do not believe that it is okay for people to believe as they see fit. Mormons give a great deal (personally to support their children missionaries) to spread their understanding of the gospel. They believe it is important for people to come to their understanding. And yet again it is bad when Catholics feel that their beliefs matter and that they should not declare them and defend them to others, but it’s perfectly okay for mormons to shout their beliefs and proclaim them as the “truth”.
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I have heard many Mormon leaders state (only partially jesting) that the LDS Church must be true because the missionaries haven’t destroyed it yet.

Don’t be too hard on missionaries, after all they are 19-20 year old boys out on their own. I’m not saying to agree with them, but just be nice. I’ll not convert but the missionaries still know that when it is hot or cold out they can stop by my house for a glass of water and/or decaf soda when it is too hot or a glass of cocoa when it is cold outside. 99% of them are good kids and the rest get sent to Oregon.😃
 
ParkerD said:
Hi, Paul,
I’m interested in the source of this particular quote?
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The idea is from St. Augustine. His letter 211 (c. 424) contains the phrase Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum, which translates roughly as “With love for mankind and hatred of sins.”

The phrase has become more famous expressed as “Love the sinner but hate the sin” or “Hate the sin and not the sinner” (the latter form appearing in Mohandas Gandhi’s 1929 autobiography).
 
MelanieAnne said:
Just out of curiosity ~ and since I have WhyMe on ignore it’s hard to know when all you see are the quotes in the posts of others ~ .
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Yes, putting someone on ignore is very christian. I am sure that if christ had an ignore button he too would have used it. 🙂 And saint therese too, not to mention mother theresa and dorothy day. I am sure that they would use an ignore button too.

And is defending mormonism a reason not to take communion? Where is it written?
 
MelanieAnne said:
Perhaps that’s what they claimed. Cowdery? Whitmer? Harris? None of those persons has any credibility and at least two of them were involved in the whole BOM fraud. Further, since the so-called “Golden Plates” did not exist, it does raise the question as to in the world they were testifying to. Perhaps to further their own interests in perpetrating the fraud?
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And yet, many of the eight witnesses claimed to have seen and touched them. And what is credibility? When saint faustina was seeing christ in the host, was she crediable? No one else saw the visions. I must believe her. It takes faith. Now of course, we have 11 witnesses who saw the book of mormon. That is quite a lot of witnesses who never denied what they saw regardless if they had a falling out with Joseph Smith.
 
Religio71 said:
Here’s a question: do you think Saint Therese followed Catholic :eek: dogma :eek: while she did what she was doing? Good works flow from the Faith. Saint Therese would not think that you can be saved by good works and that it doesn’t matter what you believe on Faith and morals.
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saint therese believed in creating a heaven on earth by doing simple things for others. It was based on good works and yes she did believe in god even though she did go through the dark night of the soul. But I don’t remember her bible bashing protestants or mormons.
 
why_me said:
And is defending mormonism a reason not to take communion? Where is it written?
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If you are defending a person’s right to believe and worship in what “they” believe is true, such as Mormonism, then you should be able to take communion.

However if “you” are supporting the Mormon beliefs. And you believe that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God, that he restored God’s church, and his Gospel. Then, no you should not take communion. Same thing goes for a Catholic that goes to a Morman Sarcament meeting. The Catholic member should not partake in the bread and water in a Mormon Sarcament if they do not believe in the Mormon teachings.

The Canon law has been posted several times throughout this thread.

I have read this entire thread and it sounds like you want to pick and choose what you want to believe from the Catholic Church. Such as the different Saints that you repeatly reference. However it seems that you still have strong belief in the Mormon teachings.

To partake communion you need to believe that the Catholic Church is God’s true church, and renounce your LDS faith.

I have a similar situation that I was raised Catholic however I never made my communion when I was younger. I investigated the LDS church, and married a Mormon women, with the plans on sealing in the Temple. I studied and researched the religion. I realized that the Mormon faith is a false Church and is based more on the words of Joseph Smith and not of God along with many many other reasons. I realized that the Spirit I may have felt while I was investigating Mormonism, was just God’s way to bring me back his true Church. The Spirit made me do a “u-turn” back to God’s church, the Catholic Church.

As much as I want to partake in the communion at Mass. I know I can’t. Since my wife and I were not married in the Catholic Church I am not able to take communion. I will have to wait until we are divorced and complete the RCIA classes. But during Communion I always recite the Spritual Communion prayer,

“My Jesus, I believe that You are in the Blessed Sacrament. I love You above all things, and I long for You in my soul. Since I cannot now receive You sacramentally, come at least spiritually into my heart. As though You have already come, I embrace You and unite myself entirely to You; never permit me to be separated from You.”
 
why_me said:
And yet, many of the eight witnesses claimed to have seen and touched them. And what is credibility? When saint faustina was seeing christ in the host, was she crediable? No one else saw the visions. I must believe her. It takes faith. Now of course, we have 11 witnesses who saw the book of mormon. That is quite a lot of witnesses who never denied what they saw regardless if they had a falling out with Joseph Smith.
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Yes, they all claimed to have “seen” (meaning spiritually, not actually) and touched them (through a cloth). Yes, it is true St. Faustine saw Christ when no one else saw her see Him. And you are willing to beleive her just one that. But you likely would not know her had she not been a Saint (and her cause for Saintfhood was up for many years before she was named a Saint). And the Chruch woudl never have named her a Saint on her saying what she saw. It was her impeccable life, and impeccable doctrine, a doctrine which taught with a brand new fullness a pre-existing truth.

The Church never would have named Joseph Smith a Saint or a Prophet of God becasue heis life was not only not impeccable, but it was grossly immoral. Joseph Smith taught a new doctine, that was opposed to the doctrine of God.

They are similar in that they “saw things”. But Satan is an imitator of God. He immitates. But his mark is always left.
 
PaulDupre said:
The idea is from St. Augustine. His letter 211 (c. 424) contains the phrase Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum, which translates roughly as “With love for mankind and hatred of sins.”

The phrase has become more famous expressed as “Love the sinner but hate the sin” or “Hate the sin and not the sinner” (the latter form appearing in Mohandas Gandhi’s 1929 autobiography).
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Paul and also Rebecca J,

I would fully expect that Augustine would rather be remembered for having written the following (as translated into English) than that particular quote:

“What does love look like? It has the hands to help others. It has the feet to hasten to the poor and needy. It has eyes to see misery and want. It has the ears to hear the sighs and sorrows of men. That is what love looks like.”

Now there is a quote worth quoting.👍
 
Eliza10 said:
Yes, they all claimed to have “seen” (meaning spiritually, not actually) and touched them (through a cloth).

.
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You are wrong:

The 2nd account came from what was probably John Whitmer’s final interview before his death. It’s funny how all these witnesses who leave the church keep reaffirming their testimonies on their deathbed. What does that tell you? Anyway, this Q&A was published a few weeks after John’s death.

Q - I am aware that your name is affixed to the testimony in the Book of Mormon that you saw the plates?
A - It is so, and that testimony is true.
Q - Did you handle the plates with your hands?
A - I did so!
Q - Then they were a material substance?
A - Yes, as material as anything can be.
Q - Were they heavy to lift?
A - Yes, and as you know gold is a heavy metal: they were very heavy.
Q - How big were the leaves?
A - So far as I recollect, 8 by 6 or seven inches.
Q - Were the leaves thick?
A - Yes, just so thick, that characters could be engraven on both sides.
Q - How were the leaves joined together?
A - In three rings, each one in the shape of a D with the straight line towards the center.
Q - In what place did you see the plates?
A - In Joseph Smith’s house; he had them there.
Q - Did you see them covered with a cloth?
A - No. He handed them uncovered into our hands, and we turned the leaves sufficient to satisfy us.

moroni10.com/witnesses/John_Whitmer.html

Do you now see the problem? You will need to become more informed about the mormon faith. John Whitmer was one of the eight witnesses who signed the following statement:

THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith
 
why_me said:
… I defend the lds church against undue criticism. I see nothing wrong in that. I view mormons as very religious who attempt to live according to what they believe is right. And they attempt to live holy lives because of it. I can think of worse things to be than mormon. I have daughters in the lds faith and they are doing fine. They are chaste, pray often, dress modestly and attempt to obey the commandments. I am proud of them. And I am sure god is also delighted with them. Any problem with what I wrote?
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I have been really wondering about the answer to the OP, and particularly yours, WhyMe, because it has been such a puzzle to me how someone could consider themselves to be lds and Catholic. Especially since the huge bulk of your posts are in defense of Mormonism or Joseph Smith. I was glad to find this buried on page 17 of this thread to help me understand why. I can’t figure if you are a mom or a dad but my guess is mom.

I am sure God is delighted with your daughters especially becasue they try to live in His ways. I can certainly think of many things worse than being Mormon today. A comletely different stroy is being Mormon in Smith’s times, living with 20-60 wives depending how high up you were in the Mormon heirarchy and how many riches you accululated because of your position, or being one of the polyamorous or polygamist adulterous wives - none of that deserves any respect. But Mormons today who are like your daughters have much to respect.

Its a puzzle why you feel you have to drop logic and be blind to the many facts presented to you here on Catholic Answers. But my guess is in the your answer copied in this post. You feel that you have to defend your daughters’ relgion in order to defend your daughters. You don’t - but you feel you do and thats what matters.

It reminds me of the people who defended O.J. during the trial. It was so obvious that O.J. was a lying murdereer with an anger problem, trying to get away with murder. But a lot of people inexplicitly followed the case and defended O.J., including one older woman I knew, a mother of eight. It defied logic, but she admired O.J.'s mother standing up for and defending her son no matter what. She identified with “stand my your kid no matter what”. So she was happy when O.J. won. Despite the glaring facts of truth, she took the other side.

And when facts of Mormonism and Smith are presetned to you, the truth doesn’t move you. You take the other side of truth. I guess you see your truth as being more important - your motive of defending your daughters.

Does that make sense?
 
why_me said:
You will need to become more informed about the mormon faith. …
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On the contrary! You need to learn more about the Catholic faith. And learn about the lives of Saints. I gave you a nice list of where to begin in another post. Did you ever look at them?

What a useless and time-consuming task to endlessly defending Joseph Smith and his dubious witnesses! Learning about the Saints will fill your heart with gladness for the goodness and graces of the Lord working in so many different lives.

I guess its one of the Mormon lines you hear over and over again, to read the BofM! Learn more about the Mormon faith! Well I have read the BofM (larging BORING not engaging) have learned plenty about the faith. There is the official white-washed version and then there are the facts, and much of the two are in gross disagreement. Really besides being highly offended by the founders, its dull stuff, and not rewarding.

But I have respect for today’s practioners who seek to know God and strengthen their families. God sees their hearts and their love for his Son (even if they also believe His Son came over to preach to the “lost?!” 13th Jewish tribe - like when is there 13 tirbes in the Bible! Its 12!!! - that came to America with chariots and iron and all that stuff the Smithsonian said was never here, let alone the lack of Jewish bloodline in the Native Americans, north or south. Bleeh!).
 
why_me said:
Saint Therese is my favorite. Have you seen the movie:Therese directed by Leonardo Defilippis? You should see it. Now of course, her little way is something that you should follow. Her goal was to create a heaven on earth by doing good through little everyday things. This is what makes her so special.

To be honest, the antimormon catholics do not seem to understand her life nor the life of Kathleen Drexel or Elizabeth Ann Seton. All did good and became saints. And I am sure that they would not waste their time condemning mormons.

Oh by the way, I have saint therese’s statue in my two homes and her photo in my office. But I also have saint faustina who suffered greatly from judgemental catholics in her own convent.
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I thought the movie was very good. I liked the book Story of a Soul much better, as well as one other book I read on St. Therese by a jouirnalist.

You said, “And I am sure that they would not waste their time condemning mormons.” But, WhyMe: I am SURE they would NEVER waster their time defending Mormons! (or Joesph Smith, or polygamy…)

Think about that.
 
why_me said:
Saint Therese is my favorite. Have you seen the movie:Therese directed by Leonardo Defilippis? You should see it. Now of course, her little way is something that you should follow. Her goal was to create a heaven on earth by doing good through little everyday things. This is what makes her so special.

To be honest, the antimormon catholics do not seem to understand her life nor the life of Kathleen Drexel or Elizabeth Ann Seton. All did good and became saints. And I am sure that they would not waste their time condemning mormons.

Oh by the way, I have saint therese’s statue in my two homes and her photo in my office. But I also have saint faustina who suffered greatly from judgemental catholics in her own convent.
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thought the movie was very good. I liked the book Story of a Soul much better, as well as one other book I read on St. Therese by a jouirnalist.

You said, “And I am sure that they would not waste their time condemning mormons.”

But, WhyMe: I am SURE they would NEVER waster their time defending Mormons! (or Joesph Smith, or polygamy…)

Think about that.
 
MelanieAnne said:
You’re welcome. But it’s not mine. It comes from Fr. Rutler (one of the priests quoted in my signature) who teaches the Catholic faith with an unparalleled eloquence. He teaches the basics and he teaches from a broad range of topics and draws them all together in a unified whole which is truly remarkable.
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I’ve seen and love Fr. Corapi, I don’t think I’ve had the pleasure of hearing Fr. Rutler. Is he on EWTN?
 
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