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Sufjon
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I’m not sure what it is you want to know Can you explain?
Why are the New Age movement and other exotic ideas so attractive?
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PRmerger
Guest
Amen!
What if someone decides the rule about not committing adultery is wrong? Do you think God would care? What about if the spouse cares? Does God care about that?
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PRmerger
Guest
What austerities are some New Age practitioners doing that comes from your faith tradition?
How does it bring them closer to God?
How do they know God wants them to do this?
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PRmerger
Guest
This, Sufjon, is absolutely not true.
There is a man here in the States who is a self-proclaimed pastor who goes around spewing hateful vitriol against a group of people, while quoting our Scriptures, and claiming that God is on his side.
I do not believe that his hateful, odious message is valid.
'Tis true, this.
Well, there are a multitude of ways that it “can be”.
One is that you are worshiping what you think is god, but you are actually not.
The other is that you are worshiping the One True God among the shadows and images of Truth. All the goodness and truth that you profess is “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.” CCC 843
And there are a whole host of other possibilities that I can’t address here.
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Sufjon
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Oh - okay: Here are some of them that are required of a practitioner:
raditional yamas are:[4][unreliable source?] [1]
- Ahimsa (अहिंसा): Nonviolence. Abstinence from injury; harmlessness, the not causing of pain to any living creature in thought, word, or deed at any time. This is the “main” yama. The other nine are there in support of its accomplishment.
- Satya (सत्य): truthfulness, word and thought in conformity with the facts.
- Asteya (अस्तेय): non-stealing, non-coveting, non-entering into debt. This means only owning what you can pay for at the moment.
- Brahmacharya (ब्रह्मचर्य): divine conduct, continence, celibate when single, faithful when married. This can also mean celibate when married.
- Kshama (क्षमा): patience, releasing time, functioning in the now.
- Dhriti (धृति): steadfastness, overcoming non-perseverance, fear, and indecision; seeing each task through to completion.
- Daya (दया): compassion; conquering callous, cruel and insensitive feelings toward all beings.
- Arjava (अर्जव): honesty, straightforwardness, renouncing deception and wrongdoing.
- Mitahara (मितहार): moderate appetite, neither eating too much nor too little; nor consuming meat, fish, shellfish, fowl or eggs. This means vegetarian diet every day for the rest of your life, nit just during holy days or seasons and NO junk food.
- Shaucha (शौच): purity, avoidance of impurity in body, mind and speech. (Note: Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras list Shaucha as the first of the Niyamas.)
These activities do bring one closer to God, but it is something you have to experience for yourself and want badly enough to go through the trouble of experiencing. We know it comes from God because it is prescribed in the scriptures by God Himself. Once you;ve seen Him, it’s worth it.
Your friend
Sufjon
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PRmerger
Guest
To answer your question, those who practice the above “austerities” are no more slack than I am. In fact, most are quite consonant with the Catholic tradition.
So my question is: what New Age Practitioners follow these austerities, and how do you know they do this? And how do they know that your God wants them to do this?
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Sufjon
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Sufjon
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I know a number who do. A few of them are some sort of Taoists Christians according to what they tell me. Some of them started doing these things because they are interested in my religion. Some just show up at temple I go to. As far as God wanting me to do these things, I think I explained that these practices were prescribed to us by God about 1,000 years before Christ, although Christ did stay consistent with these, so I am sure he would not disagree, being that He was an incarnation of God Himself.
Your friend,
Sufjon
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PRmerger
Guest
Do you have a verse that says that Christ was a vegetarian and proposed NO JUNK food?
At any rate, if there are a few New Age Practitioners who espouse these austerities, I have no problems with that.
It is when they decide that something they want to do (i.e. marry their homosexual lover) is forbidden by their religion, so they decide to find a religion that conforms to their own agenda.
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Sufjon
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Regarding Christ and vegetarianism, I have no idea about that. I know that some Christians practice it on certain holy days. We just do it all the time. It is what God has called us to do.
Regarding homosexuality, I really don’t spend much time thinking about the sexual behavior of others. Any love based on marriage or kinship is a beginners level of love anyway. It’s a good starting place, because that’s where you learn how to love someone, but that’s only a start. Most people don’t move much past that. In my faith it s believed that my task is in fact to move past all that. Well past that. The point is, you start by loving someone. A man who loves a man more than another man has some growing to do. A man who loves a woman more than other women or other men also has some growing to do. The point is that in either case, they have at least learned to love someone. I know a woman who has only learned to love her cats. That is a start.
Your friend,
Sufjon
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PRmerger
Guest
Ok. I was almost certain that Christ did not espouse vegetarianism.
This is Catholic teaching, too. The self-sacrificial relationship between husband and wife is only an icon, or an image of the relationship we have with God.
I’d like to go back to an earlier point you proferred:
I asked:
What if someone decides the rule about not committing adultery is wrong? Do you think God would care? What about if the spouse cares? Does God care about that?
Do you really believe that if someone “gets some rule wrong” God sees it a bit differently? God doesn’t care if a man commits adultery?
meltzerboy
New member
Beautifully stated, Sufjon. I’d also like to think that Judaism–like Hinduism–is not limited by its own specific beliefs in Torah Law. The true spiritual interpretation of Torah, probably the interpretation held by Jesus and the interpretation of famous rabbis such as Rabbi Akiva and Maimonides, gives us the allowance of individual conscience in deciding matters of morality in extenuating circumstances. Those Torah (Orthodox) Jews who abide by the Law by saying it is G-d’s Will without questioning, even though strict obedience to certain laws (not many) may cause suffering, have not, in my view, understood the Torah correctly. The leniencies of not keeping the Sabbath and not keeping the kosher laws when life is imperiled are known and understood by all Torah Jews; but there are a few other laws that are kept despite their unpleasant consequences. No moral justification can be offered based on modern definitions of harshness and cruelty; however, those who keep these laws say that the Law is not temporal but eternal. I find certain Christians (Catholics and Protestants) say much the same thing with regard to their own doctrines based on New Testament scripture, Apostolic tradition, and the Magisterium. All of these groups (Torah Jews, traditional Catholics, and fundamentalist Protestants, as well as fundamentalist Muslims) are restrictive in their own ways and believe they have a monopoly on the absolute Truth and the One, True G-d. I disagree with all of them on this point. And I believe that the essence of Judaism–with which I am most familiar–also disagrees.
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PRmerger
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Greetings, meltzerboy! I appreciate your comments, but wonder if you see the irony in them?
You seem to be promoting a restrictive truth here: no one has a monopoly on the absolute Truth.
And another restrictive truth: there is One, true God.
And another restrictive truth: The true spiritual interpretation of Torah, probably the interpretation held by Jesus and the interpretation of famous rabbis such as Rabbi Akiva and Maimonides, gives us the allowance of individual conscience in deciding matters of morality in extenuating circumstances.
So why are the truths you proclaim liberating, but the truths proclaimed by, say, Catholicism restrictive?
meltzerboy
New member
I am finding more similarities between Hinduism and Judaism every time I read your posts. There is a case in Torah Judaism for vegetarianism, and some Orthodox Jews are vegetarians.
meltzerboy
New member
In a sense, I suppose, taking a stand or making a commitment on anything is being restrictive. But there are gradations, I believe. My perspective on the issue of G-d is encompassing other points of view: there are several paths to Heaven, so to speak, and no one has a monopoly on absolute truth. Following one’s individual conscience as well is less restrictive than blind obedience, is it not? Spiritual interpretation is, by and large, also less restrictive than legalistic interpretation. So much so that many traditionalists label my way of thinking as subjective moral relativism. I would say Traditional Catholicism, Protestant Fundamentalism, Islamic Fundamentalism, and Torah Judaism are all more restrictive in their approach to G-d. While they may enable others to be saved by the grace of G-d (much debate on this issue in Catholicism, as you know) and, in the case of Judaism, non-Jews need follow only seven commandments of the Noahide Law rather than 613 Torah commandments to achieve morality and salvation, there is still a certain preference given to those of one’s own religion since they alone are thought to practice the true faith.
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Sufjon
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Hi Meltzerboy: I am seeing the same thing as well. The more I learn about Judaism, the more convinced I am of a connection between your faith and mine. The conclusions are very similar. I have head that there was contact between the two cultures via the silk roads. These are two very ancient religions, and I think they may go back to when there was some inherent wisdom of the species, hence the similarities Just speculation on my part. The odd thing is that not only do the early teachings match, but later Judaic teachings and later Hindu teaching also match very closely. There is not only similarity, but continuity as well.
Your friend,
Sufjon
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Sufjon
Guest
That’s a huge subject and I have to go to bed. I’ll check in tomorrow hopefully , and I’ll follow up.
Your friend
Sufjon
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Sunny_Swanblack
Guest
“An it harm none, do what thou wilt.
An it harm all, do what you must”
Heres your answer, if it harms no one then its okay, if its harming no one, physically, mentally or emotionally then its ok.
But what if someone is doing something that harms a great many people and no solution has been reached? Then you do what you must. You attempt to resolve it in the way the brings the least amount of harm and suffering to everyone. Including the perpetrator, and only if its in your power to do something about it and no soution can be reached.
Then theres law of threefold. What you do good will come back to you three times, and what you do bad comes back to you three times. good brings more good, bad brings more bad.
Its in us to live in peace and harmony with nature, but mans pride and mans ignorance has brought the desctruction of the rainforest, and the extinction of species for sport. Of course her ways are different from our ways.
Blessed be.
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Sunny_Swanblack
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First of all you conveniently only quoted what would support you. Second of all, I would have a hard job convincing a white supremacist because im indian/malaysian.In the area of social justice, then, Sunny, you would have a hard time telling a white supremacist that his views are wrong. You would not be able to tell a person who proclaims that women have no souls that he is wrong. You can not tell someone that even throwing a plastic soda bottle into the ocean is wrong…
because they’ll just tell you that this is what their “intuition” has told them is the right thing to do.
And in your paradigm, that’s all that is required.
Intuition is only an example that I used, here is what I originaly said.
What is relevant here is everything from the but (refering to quote) onwards.well in wicca at least theres the rede
“an it harm none do what thou wilt.
an it harm all do what you must.”
Then theres the law of threefold.
Theres so many different interpretations of morality,
For some its black and white, set on stone, its the rules in the book set out for you to follow.
For others its something that doesnt exist.
For others its made up in their head and they follow it.
But for me, its when you are pointed in the right direction and you walk the path, you make your own share of mistakes and its faith. Faith in yourself, and faith in the Goddess.
I dont think morality is black or white, but a complex and delicate balance of shades of gray. Im guided by the rede, law of threefold, my judgement, the actions of others under similar circumstance, and by my heart.
You seem to think that people need to have it set in stone. In black or white, on or off, with us or not with us.
In Wicca we strive to be more understanding, tolerant, and empathatic. It may not seem like a change for you, but its a change for us.
While your intuition might tell you one thing, someone elses intuition might tell them wholly another. Morality can have so many different meanings, more than I can put down, and life shapes us to be who we are. One mans trash is another mans treasure.
I see no reason to convert her because one disapproves. If she finds it fufilling and deep down she knows that this is her calling and her path then let her follow it. If you are concerned about morality then ask her what her interpretation is
You mightnt agree with it but if its her path, then its her path.
Blessed be.
I said morality for me was a delicate balance of shades of gray, im guided by the rede, the law of threefold, my judgement, the actions of people under similar circumstance, and by my heart. I forgot to mention, these as well earlier, other factors would be, the effects on others and their opinions should also be considered.
Throwing a soda bottle into the sea, is not intuition.
Its either laziness,ignorance or delibaretly wanting to harm the environment.
Saying women have no souls is not intution its belief in the topic.
White supremacy is an ideology, not intuition.
I would only intervene in the case of the soda bottle, because its an action that results in harm of the environment. I would then ask the person theur reasons behind it and usuallty in that case its simply because its conveineint.
Saying women have no souls is just some one saying something. If thats what he believes and its not harming anyone, ie killing a woman then using this belief to justify it then its okay as long as he keeps his mouth shut about it,if only because other men will object and if men have souls then presumably he will take their opinions into account. As long as he dont harm anyone, then let him think whatever it is he wants to think.
White supremacy is an ideaology, a theory not intuition. Personally as a colored person I couldnt really care less what he thinks of me and others. Im okay as long as he isnt harming anyone. Personally as long as hes harming no body and being civil, then I dont really mind what he believes.
Have you ever read the book rosies walk by pat hutchins? Its a good idea for when people are deliberatly trying to be offensive and not having civil debates like this one.
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rinnie
Guest
I think because like all thing’s that come from the devil are his empty promises. We pray alot in Church and if you recall when we renew our Baptism promises the one thing we pray for is to stay away from the devil and his empty promises.
It is these empty promises that seem to lure them. The devil loves to lure people, especially when they are at their weakest moment. That is when he moves in and confuses them. If you think back when most people make the worst mistakes in their lives is when they are at their lowest or taken by surprise.
The problem most people have with God is he answers our prayers when and how he feels is the best for us. Not in the time frame and way that we always want them answered.
But we tend to say we trust God but really try to be our own god sometimes in our own lives. that is when we get in trouble. We must learn that trust and faith takes time, God works in his time and his way. But his love for us is never failing.
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