Why are there mutterings of discontent within the Catholic clergy towards our Pope?

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It is absolutely OK to pray that every soul is saved also.
My question is with that hope being orthodox faith, why wouldn’t we pray for every soul?
 
Maximus1 said:
It is absolutely OK to pray that every soul is saved also.
My question is with that hope being orthodox faith, why wouldn’t we pray for every soul?
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Especially if that is what we hope for ourselves after death.

Luke 6:31 “Do to others as you would have them do to you.”
 
Well there is the shape of reality yes. There is the fact that we are all doomed if merit was the criteria for salvation.
Judgement of Mercy is life, James makes it clear judgement by the law, is frightening to contemplate.
 
I don’t think it makes sense to say that it would have been better if a person was never born, if this person is participating in the Beatific Vision with the saints, or will participate after purgatory. It could even be a sacrilege.
 
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I hear what you are saying and it persuaded enough for me to say," We don’t know for certain."
That might sound wishy washy, but it represents a departure from what would be my view without it, which tends to hope that salvation is God’s plan. As it says in Ephesians 1:3-4 for example. Or GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL. ( For example).
The Bible always has a tension of ideas when you read the whole and not the part alone. Jame’s Judgement of Freedom for example.
In this case we read your passage via a modern literalist view and you seem right.
But this was written by men in a different culture and time. They make points using hyperbole.
For example, the teachings about leaving family are " literally" in conflict with HONOR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER. If you apply simple/ literal. Many Christians derive a terrible lesson when they do this.
Truth is, it is hyperbole style. All it intends is to convey love and dedicate to Christ " A LOT". Not dishonor family and parents.
So I say, maybe you are right. In contemplating these issues of the scope of salvation. This is a continuation of an argument and tension that began with the desert fathers and still is. After 2000 years, I conclude the questions remain.
 
The situation with Judas is not like others, however.

It’s not myself making the statements about him. It’s the Lord and Scripture. So we have Jesus, Himself, calling him a lost, devil that would have been better, for him, not to have been born.

Jesus was praying when he called Judas lost. And we do not see the Apostles praying for him. John even warns not to pray for the forgiveness of mortal sins.

St Augustine, St Thomas Aquinus, St Catherine of Sienna, and others have attested to his fate, according to their interpretation of the Gospel.

I dont like debating this issue. I’m going to bow out now.
 
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You might be right.
I will leave you with this.
Judas was lost. Jesus was praying and Apostles essentially observing, and his prayers did not include lost Judas. The remaining Apostles were about to carry on his church without him.
John admonished not to pray for forgiveness of mortal sins, considering this admonishment valid, I leave you with this.
Why do we pray for every soul if Judas committed a known mortal sin?
I think it a fair question.
Peace!
 
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Yes, it’s a fine question.

My point, is that Jesus is the Judge, and He was very harsh about statements towards Judas. Language of eternal loss.

We dont have Him here to make pronouncements about someone’s soul. So, as a Church, we dont know what His judgment is about anyone. So we offer prayers of hope. And we hope they are not mortal sins on their souls. Because our prayers cannot help that.
 
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St. Paul had a disagreement with Pope St. Peter (the issue of whether Gentiles needed to be circumcized as Jewish Catholics were).
While you can definitely read about it in the Book of Acts and segments of it in several of the Pauline Epistles, you are reading about it “after the fact”; you will never see anywhere in writing or in anyone’s narrative of the times, a public exhortation by Paul to the popular opinion, that they should rise up against the Pope, against Peter.

What Paul did with Peter was done in privacy, behind closed doors, with the other Apostles, and then in a closed door Council, whose activities were after the fact made public in a letter to the Gentiles, and in Luke’s book of the Acts of the Apostles.

Today’s priests and bishops do not take Jesus seriously, as Paul, Peter, and the others did, where Jesus described the chain of activity when you had some complaint against “your brother” (your fellow bishop, priest, religious, Catholic). Jesus explicitly told the steps to take, and not once did he say to speak publicly to arouse public outcry to gain power in your complaint.

These public “mutterings” and bishops’ letters, etc., are the words of people who do not know the actuality of the Holy Spirit protecting the Church from the Gates of Hell, so they do not believe they will achieve “truth” if they follow Jesus’ instruction (Matt. 18).
 
Hmmmm…comparing Pope Francis to Donald Trump? That I could not and would not ever do. :roll_eyes:
 
I don’t know - I think Pope Francis and Donald Trump have more in common than a lot of people would like to admit. Not in their beliefs and morals, but in how they conduct themselves in their respective offices compared to their predecessors.
  • Both like to give spontaneous statements to the public/media; Trump uses Twitter, Francis uses airplane press conferences and off the cuff remarks during his appearances.
  • Both like to insult people who don’t agree with them; Trump’s are harsher and meaner, but Francis says things about people that Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI would have never dreamed of saying (calling a Cardinal a child, calling priests animals, etc.).
  • Both have a populist like backing that stands in stark contrast to their predecessors; Trump won states that Republicans haven’t won in decades, while Francis is far more popular among atheists, non-Catholics, and liberal Catholics than his predecessors.
  • Both have appointed officials with questionable qualifications and backgrounds to prominent positions in their organizations; Trump has had tons of turnover in his Cabinet, while more than Francis’ council of Cardinals has been embroiled or is currently embroiled in some kind of scandal.
  • Both are reportedly very authoritarian in personality and value loyalty over other qualities.
In many ways, they seem like two sides of the same coin.
 
I totally disgree.
Pope Francis has given his life in the service of God.
Donald Trump has given his life to acquire money and things.
God bless Jorge Mario Bergoglio! 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
 
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The Church never claims to be the judge of someone’s soul.

Judas happens to be a person involved in the Gospel message, and we hear Jesus’ words about him.

Therefore, the Church would have to interpret Scripture regarding those passages.

She most likely wont, because there is no need. Therefore, we can believe Judas was lost, or he was temporarily lost but redeemed in some mysterious fashion.

I personally believe his redemption would be made known, and his life give fruits of that. After all, he was an Apostle. Jesus would make example of his redemption. It would be cause for hope, rather than warning.

Several important Saints have expressed their understanding of the Scriptures concerning Judas. And the couple liturgical prayers, I’ve seen, are not designed as portraying hope for his fate.
 
Ammi said:
Do you consider a Dubia “muttering”?
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Me?
Why are you directing this question to me? Where did I remotely even imply that a Dubia from Cardinals of the Church is muttering.
I responded to the OP’s question about why the discontented mutter.
 
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It’s a very relative question.

There are just concerns and disappointments, which some priests may be expressing (related to the lawful dubia).

So we should not call that “mutterings”.

Distinction should be made.
 
Geez, no one, specifically.

I’m not criticizing you!

It’s a question for discussion.

It’s unfair to not make a distinction between priests, bishops, and Cardinals formally raising questions and criticism towards the Bishop of Rome, and a negative connotation of “mutterings”.

Some of these priests and laity may be disappointed that the Bishop of Rome did not respectfully respond to the dubia
 
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