Why are they still protesting? What do they want?

[TULIPed]

What is that last line supposed to mean?

Not meant to be accusatory. Meant to start a conversation.

 

[blackforest]

I believe all lives matter so there is the issue.

“All lives matter” reminds me of pro-choicers pointing fingers at pro-lifers: “What about born children? Don’t you care about them?”

Focusing on one cause doesn’t mean that others are unimportant. But that African-Americans are 2.5-3 times more likely to be killed by police officers just happens to be the focus of Black Lives Matter and the problem they’re trying to solve.

And as I always say, if all lives matter, get out there and march with them!

The group isn’t a monolith and most use it because it is a catchy slogan and not because they are part of the group so any negative attributes can only be given to people that show them.

I’m trying to explain this in another thread, but it’s like slinging mud at a brick wall.

#blacklivesmatter = a movement
Black Lives Matter website = an official organization

There. Is. A. Difference.

I may show up at the March for Life as part of the pro-life movement. That doesn’t mean that I support a particular pro-life organization. Some - such as those that promote brandishing photos of aborted fetuses - I won’t go near with a 10-ft pole.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

The bible. We are to love each other equally. Give
All you have and Follow me. The phaorasis (sp)protested against Jesus.
Huh look what happened there.

That’s an ideal that is not fully realized in America.

 

[Peeps]

Interesting points.

Just as a minor observation, I believe December has the shortest days in the northern hemisphere as it is the month in which the solstice occurs.

For the next time it comes up during trivia night at the bar.

Yes, December can be pretty dark up here in Northern Illinois! But so many people put up Christmas lights that it seems light and cheerful. Then comes January, and it feels like night all the time, especially if you work a first shift. You get up in the dark, go to work in the dark, and by the time you get off work at 3:30 p.m., it’s beginning to get dark.

So I do hope that maybe someone else besides me, someone with influence in the educational field, will get the idea that Black History Month would work out better in a warmer, lighter month!

And personally, I think that ALL history should be studied and enjoyed year around. My brother, who is a welder (trade school!) loves reading histories of Native American groups, and he can tell a lot of interesting facts and stories about Native Americans and their lives in OUR area of Northern Illinois! If he can do it, then surely the rest of us can pick up some books or websites or films on groups that we are interested in and learn as much as we can.

In our city, we have an ethnic museum. For a long time, it only had Scandinavian artifacts and displays, since the town has many ties to Scandinavia, especially Sweden. (The church I grew up in had a Swedish worship service, and many of the old folks would speak Swedish when they were in their social groups. And lots of people had names like Ragnar and Annefred, etc.!).

But for quite a few years now, the Ethnic Museum has added displays about many of the ethnic groups that make up our city, including an excellent black history display. I hope that other cities and towns will consider doing the same with their museums if they haven’t already.

 

[Freddy]

Thanks for posting. I haven’t read it, have no idea if I would agree with the list or not, but I appreciate that someone is answering the question with specifics.

I read the eight points and my immediate reaction was: What the…? Aren’t they part of policing policy right now? Can the police fire with no warning? Don’t they have to exhaust all possibilities before shooting someone? Aren’t there reports to be filed if they even draw their weapon?

The very fact that these could be considered good ideas to implement has me totally nonplussed.

 

[Poet]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) TULIPed:

And you feel this way because human beings have value and worth. They are made in the image of God. (I think maybe people of color might have something to say about this if you asked them.)

Not meant to be accusatory. Meant to start a conversation.

I will state and support my position forever on abortion because unborn babies have value and worth. I believe the vast majority of people (99% or more) of people believe that every life has worth, of whatever race or color.

So what is the conversation you hope to start?

 

[Servant31]

I’m going to assume good intent.

 

[Servant31]

If I had to make a quick list of what I think the protesters want.

• Equal treatment by law enforcement and justice
• Addressing cultural and societal biases affecting all areas of life. Finance, opportunities, discrimination, work, social hierarchy etc.
• To be heard and respected as equals in all ways
• Recognition for the difficulties racial bias has caused for centuries

I heard a comment “is this what you would want for yourself?” I thought that was pretty good overall.

Edit: hopefully someone can modify/edit the list to improve it.

 

[Zaccheus]

How about more accountability for their own actions? If curfew is at 8 pm and I “choose” to stay out later, should I not be held accountable for my decision to stay out later?

This is the decision I “chose” which leads to the police coming to me in the first place. I started this. I “chose” to stay out. No one made me stay out. If I go home at 7:45 pm, I am not putting myself in any sort of position for a negative consequence. I would need to “choose” to abide by the law for this to play out safely which is the issue.

1. And George Floyd ‘chose’ to be murdered?
2. If I ‘choose’ to stay out after curfew, and the police then ‘choose’ to beat the crud out of me or put out my eye by shooting me with rubber bullets, am I the only one at fault?
3. The protesters are ‘choosing’ to stay out in order to protest racially-motivated harassments, beatings, and sometimes murders. In most cases the curfews were declared solely to obstruct them from so protesting.
4. In some cases the police ‘chose’ to attack journalists and medical workers. One journalist, a woman, lost her eye to a rubber bullet.
   The police are supposed to aim those rubber bullets at the legs of their targets, to hamper them from running away. Instead some police are aiming at faces, which can result in loss of eyes. Are not the police responsible for what they ‘choose’ to do?

 

[Zaccheus]

I read the eight points and my immediate reaction was: What the…? Aren’t they part of policing policy right now ? Can the police fire with no warning ? Don’t they have to exhaust all possibilities before shooting someone? Aren’t there reports to be filed if they even draw their weapon?

The very fact that these could be considered good ideas to implement has me totally nonplussed.

These are things the police are supposed to do. The problem is that some police just ignore the list, and others at least are very selective in their compliance.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

I read the eight points and my immediate reaction was: What the…? Aren’t they part of policing policy right now ? Can the police fire with no warning ? Don’t they have to exhaust all possibilities before shooting someone? Aren’t there reports to be filed if they even draw their weapon?

The very fact that these could be considered good ideas to implement has me totally nonplussed.

These are things the police are supposed to do. The problem is that some police just ignore the list, and others at least are very selective in their compliance.

So is it that people want these rules simply to be enforced? That they are already in place? They seem to be basic, common sense ‘rules of engagement’ to me.

 

[Zaccheus]

So is it that people want these rules simply to be enforced? That they are already in place? They seem to be basic, common sense ‘rules of engagement’ to me.

Pretty much, yes.

 

[Peeps]

If I had to make a quick list of what I think the protesters want.

• Equal treatment by law enforcement and justice
• Addressing cultural and societal biases affecting all areas of life. Finance, opportunities, discrimination, work, social hierarchy etc.
• To be heard and respected as equals in all ways
• Recognition for the difficulties racial bias has caused for centuries

But none of these are measurable! Don’t you see that? Or is that a “white thing?”

Argh! Tearing out my hair reading this! (And from what I have heard in various “racial sensitivity” workshops and classes over the years, black people feel that it’s racist when white women twirl their straight blonde hair!)

This list is IMPOSSIBLE!! It’s not a list of changes in policy, it’s a list of attitude changes that absolutely cannot be measured as long as people’s brains and hearts cannot be constantly monitored.

E.g., how can “to be heard and respected as equals in all ways” be measured?!! I’ve heard black people say that they are uncomfortable when driving because they observe the police “watching them.”

Well, news for black people!–every time I drive (and I’m very pale and blondish and in my 60s!), I observe the cops watching ME!

Every morning, I see “Barney Fyfe” watching all of us drive to work, waiting like a spider for one of us to go 2 miles over the speed limit so they can squeeze $200.00 out of us for the city coffers!

And how on earth are we supposed to "address cultural and societal biases affecting all areas of life?! It seems to me that thinking that the police are constantly watching us is a “bias” against the police! But obviously, THAT bias is OK.

Financial–what is this all about? I don’t care how black people manage their money! Are we talking about the people who condemn them for leasing a flashy Cadillac and defaulting on the payments after only a few months instead of getting an easy loan ($200/month) on a cute little used Ford Focus?

Well, news for black people!–white people spend money on some pretty fluffy stuff, too–just watch HGTV and see white people (and black people and other colors of people) spend $10,000 on a kitchen countertop!!! ARRGH! They claim that their old kitchen countertop looks “dated”–well, don’t they realize that in five years, their $10,000 countertop will look dated, too?!

Honestly, I am not being contentious here–I’m just angry, yes, angry, that this list contains NOTHING that can be quantified unless you count the number of classes and workshops in “Racial Sensitivity” that all of us will be required to attend in the next few years.

And I’m even angrier that if I said ANY of this in a real-life (not online) setting, I would probably be in big trouble, possibly even fired from my job for “racist thinking.”

As the Wicked Witch of the West said, “What a world, what a world!”

 

[Welshrabbit]

Freddy:

I read the eight points and my immediate reaction was: What the…? Aren’t they part of policing policy right now ? Can the police fire with no warning ? Don’t they have to exhaust all possibilities before shooting someone? Aren’t there reports to be filed if they even draw their weapon?

The very fact that these could be considered good ideas to implement has me totally nonplussed.

These are things the police are supposed to do. The problem is that some police just ignore the list, and others at least are very selective in their compliance.

Police are justified in using deadly force only when they believe that such force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to themselves or another. Depending on the situation, this may or may not involve a verbal warning. Situations can and do go from “officer presence” to “deadly force” without escalating through the other stages of the use of force continuum.

There is no “report” to be filed if a weapon is drawn because even if a weapon is drawn and pointed at a suspect, it is still considered “officer presence” on the use of force continuum.

 

[Freddy]

Zaccheus:

Freddy:

I read the eight points and my immediate reaction was: What the…? Aren’t they part of policing policy right now ? Can the police fire with no warning ? Don’t they have to exhaust all possibilities before shooting someone? Aren’t there reports to be filed if they even draw their weapon?

The very fact that these could be considered good ideas to implement has me totally nonplussed.

These are things the police are supposed to do. The problem is that some police just ignore the list, and others at least are very selective in their compliance.

Police are justified in using deadly force only when they believe that such force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to themselves or another. Depending on the situation, this may or may not involve a verbal warning. Situations can and do go from “officer presence” to “deadly force” without escalating through the other stages of the use of force continuum.

There is no “report” to be filed if a weapon is drawn because even if a weapon is drawn and pointed at a suspect, it is still considered “officer presence” on the use of force continuum.

Pretty much the same in Australia. Officers must discount all means possible before resorting to drawing their weapons. I don’t think there’s a problem in drawing them but there’s an automatic review if shots are fired and an automatic colonial inquest if anyone is killed.

And they are not armed when off duty (except in specific circumstances). Guns are left at the police station. I think the average number of people killed by police in the course of their duties is around 5 or 6 per year.

 

[Welshrabbit]

Well yeah, if shots are fired and/or someone is killed by law enforcement there is a big 'ol investigation here as well.

I believe there are some law enforcement agencies in the U.S. that do not permit their officers to carry their weapons when they are off duty, but the vast majority of them do.

 

[TULIPed]

So what is the conversation you hope to start?

A conversation with a person of color about why they are frustrated. One in which we listen more than we talk. A conversation is at least a beginning towards action. Speaking of action…

I will state and support my position forever on abortion because unborn babies have value and worth.

Excellent. I’m glad you have a position on the matter (one in which we violently agree BTW). You believe that unborn babies have value and worth. What are you actually doing about it? Are you giving sacrificially to causes that support single mothers? Are you spending time with kids of single parent homes - mentoring them and picking up the slack for their parent? Are you volunteering at women’s health clinics?

Belief is one thing, doing is another. As St. James says:

“You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.”

And for the record, I’m terrible at the whole “live out your faith” thing - but I get a pass because I’m a Protestant and we believe in “faith alone”.

 

[Servant31]

So as a white male I get frustrated how I am automatically
-Republican
-racist-homophobic
-sexist
-in a fraternity
-wear polos and am a beer drinking fool
-rich

I grew up in a demographically diverse area, in a barely scraping by family, with a mom who eventually made more than my dad, and a female family member who is now a marine… lol … so yeah. The thing is if I’m depressed, anxious, tired, don’t dress well, quiet/contemplative basically not perfect in any way, I’ve lost jobs, careers. People can be like that. It’s unfortunate but I don’t think we can deny it, I certainly can’t.

Now imagine wearing that difference, which, by any account, really shouldn’t matter, all the time. I can only guess the challenges.

Some of these things are measurable. Like financial. Loans were actually tougher to get for people of color for many years due to being put into a higher risk category. And we can measure the average wealth as well as income.

So I hear your frustration about non measurable. But I don’t think we can use that criteria necessarily. I’m not saying it’s easy, but I am saying it’s necessary.

 

[blackforest]

So as a white male I get frustrated how I am automatically
-Republican
-racist-homophobic
-sexist
-in a fraternity
-wear polos and am a beer drinking fool
-rich

Yes, well, look at the bright side. At least you’re not 2.5-3 more times likely to be a victim of police violence.

But none of these are measurable! Don’t you see that?

To repeat my comment upthread, people in this thread are placing too many demands on protesters and the process of protesting. Protesting is NOT a venue for 1000s upon 1000s of people to brainstorm SMART goals (specific, measurable, etc.).

Protesting asserts a broad ideal - police accountability, in this case - that’s later followed up on with policy proposals. That’s the non-glamorous, unromantic part that doesn’t get nearly as much coverage in new stories or CAF threads.

The whole premise of this thread - all but demanding a a mission statement, goals, and objectives from protesters - is preposterous.

Honestly, I am not being contentious here–I’m just angry, yes, angry, that this list contains NOTHING that can be quantified unless you count the number of classes and workshops in “Racial Sensitivity” that all of us will be required to attend in the next few years.

First of all, for the sake of your blood pressure, take a deep breath. There are numerous ways of addressing the lack of police accountability that are far less simplistic than hoping to educate the problem away through sensitivity training. But it’s not the protesters’ job to hand over that list to you for your approval.

Defunding police militarization, more rigorous training and hiring standards with higher salaries (funding shift! - see what I did there?), and a more transparent and external review system are just some of the ideas on the table. It doesn’t matter whether you agree with these ideas or feel a knee-jerk urge to hit REPLY and pick them apart. The point is that activism by protest is invariably followed up with activism by community organizing, lobbying, drafting legislation, etc. THAT is the time to discuss possible solutions.

Hopefully, however, this thread isn’t representative of national opinion at large. Where over half of these posts are denying that there’s even a problem, clearly this thread won’t be where anyone agrees on any solution.

 

[petra22]

I hope I didn’t slight anyone when I said we had Black History Month. That isn’t the only time contributions of African Americans is celebrated… it’s just special that month.