Why aren't atheists joyful?

[AnAtheist]

Lisa4Catholics:

Hello,AnAtheist,I will give you a few references now and if you want more I will certainly provide them. God Bless
learninc.org/articles/eugenics.html/

all.org/issues/eugenics.htm

eugenics.net/papers/3rdreich.html/

blackgenocide.org/sanger.html

pro-choicenazi.com/Pro-Choice_Nazi_Abortion_Facts/

First, I had a typo in my post. It’s 12weels of course. :whacky:

I strongly doubt some of the references. Nazi Germany was far from pro-abortion. I’ve never heard of that. In fact women were encouraged to get as many children as possible. Hitler needed soldiers and settlers for the conquered and depopulated East. :nope:

I am very much for planned parenthood, if that means using contraception. I am very much against abortion (with* very* few exceptions) for a simple reason. Pro-abortionists often claim, embryos are just a bunch of cells. Well, to me, as an atheist who does not believe in a soul or stuff like that, every human is just a bunch of cells. So I fail to see the difference between a born and an unborn bunch of cells.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I just read this article “How to Talk to An Antheist” and thought some of you may find this interesting. It’s written by former atheist Mike Adams. www.townhall.com/columnists/mikeadams/ma20050124.shtml

(By the way, I don’t mean to imply your not already doing a fine job. Lisa4Catholics–keep up the good work and prayer! The facts are on your side, and so is God!)

 

[Tlaloc]

Darrel:

Yes,
Like every country we have done a million things that are wrong, the list can go on forever. Yet I love my country and I wouldn’t wish to live anyplace else short of heaven. If you examine any countries history or even the churches history you will find some list of wrongful things done.

Amen to that. It goes a long way towards explaining why I’m an anarchist. Organizations of man are always the worst offenders in history. No serial killer can come close to the atrocities of countries, churches, unions, corporations, etc.

In spite of the atrocities committed by the US we still have the right to post how horrible it is right here in this forum without the secret police kicking in our door. In the days when Christ was walking the Earth before his crucifixion you would be crucified for speaking against Rome.

Well depends on what you mean. Rome was actually very religiously diverse and tolerant. The Christians got in trouble for a number of reasons, some that were not their fault and some that were. But if you specifically mean sedition that’s becoming more and more of a crime here. Did you notice that a news organization was declared a terrorist organization by the state department based solely on what they chose to say?

I totally agree that the United States has done a slew of evil things, yet we still seem blessed. The people don’t actually reflect the government’s actions. If you take a drive through any town in the United States you will see a Christian Church of one sort or another. That can’t be said about Iran or Iraq. There are still some good things about this country. The whole world seems to have a problem with the US, we are called arrogant and power hungry by most of Europe. In a way they are correct, yet when they need something who do they come to? People run countries, so there will obviously be corruption and evil.

There are many good things about the US. I don’t deny that at all. I just can’t understand someone saying, with our history, that the US is a “Christian” nation. If it really is that reflects terribly on Christianity. I’d rather be fair to Christians and not blame them for the stuff done by politicians and generals and spooks.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

AnAtheist:

First, I had a typo in my post. It’s 12weels of course. :whacky:

I strongly doubt some of the references. Nazi Germany was far from pro-abortion. I’ve never heard of that. In fact women were encouraged to get as many children as possible. Hitler needed soldiers and settlers for the conquered and depopulated East. :nope:

I am very much for planned parenthood, if that means using contraception. I am very much against abortion (with* very* few exceptions) for a simple reason. Pro-abortionists often claim, embryos are just a bunch of cells. Well, to me, as an atheist who does not believe in a soul or stuff like that, every human is just a bunch of cells. So I fail to see the difference between a born and an unborn bunch of cells.

Will you do me a favor and look at the links and read them and please do not make any decisions on the facts until you look and do research on the assertions God Bless

 

[Bixbyg]

Tlaloc:

Your argument is really that “Christian” nations commit atrocities with slightly lower body count than atheists? Well if that really passes your standard of good government welcome to it. Personally I’d shoot a bit higher. For one thing I wouldn’t describe any nation as “Christian” that engages in any atrocities whatsoever. Might be a better starting point. Just a suggestion.

Not Necessarily…humans by nature commit terrible acts…humans with lots of power commit even worse acts. Humans can also do good, but nobody is perfect. As a christian…I at least have a definition of what is good, though I may not always follow it due to my own weakness.

A chrisitian Nation is one whose core values are based on Christian beliefs…whether they actually follow them or not. Yes, this leaves open many cases of incredible abuse and atrocity (cite the wars of religion in which whole towns were wiped out in Germany…though it wasn’t really Germany yet), but it also allows something to be compared to…a question that must be asked if defining the best basis form of government:
“Which kind of governments have the least tendancy for abuse and atrocity?”
and additionally:
“Which kind have the greatest tendancy for abuse and atrocity?”

I submit the theory that a Democracy based on chrisitian values is the answer to the first one…and a totalitarian government with an atheist ruler is the answer to the second…

Soooo…the point I was making is that our nation is based on Chrisitian values of what is right and wrong (even if we don’t always live up to them) and that defines us as a christian nation. Whereas a Nation such as North Korea is an Atheist nation and is notorious for abuse and horrible attrocity.

History seems to point to “Christian” Nations having a better track-record for failing in ways that are much less severe than ones that are not…yes…atrocities with less of a body count…and not to sound too pragmatic…but isn’t that better than atrocities with higher body counts?

 

[AnAtheist]

gardenswithkids:

I just read this article “How to Talk to An Antheist” and thought some of you may find this interesting. It’s written by former atheist Mike Adams.

Mike Adams:

I still remember the night I publicly declared my atheism. It was April 3rd, 1992. I was a long-haired musician

, playing guitar at a bar called “The Gin” in Oxford, Mississippi.
Yeah, sure. He missed out “drug-addicted” to the list of stereotypes. I wonder how many of those “former atheists” do know, what the term atheist really means.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

gardenswithkids:

I just read this article “How to Talk to An Antheist” and thought some of you may find this interesting. It’s written by former atheist Mike Adams. www.townhall.com/columnists/mikeadams/ma20050124.shtml

(By the way, I don’t mean to imply your not already doing a fine job. Lisa4Catholics–keep up the good work and prayer! The facts are on your side, and so is God!)

Thankyou so much and I welcome anything you can add God Bless

 

[Tlaloc]

Bixbyg:

Not Necessarily…humans by nature commit terrible acts…humans with lots of power commit even worse acts. Humans can also do good, but nobody is perfect. As a christian…I at least have a definition of what is good, though I may not always follow it due to my own weakness.

I’d disagree. Groups of humans commit terrible acts. Individual humans are usually quite decent. For some reason its when they give up their personal responsibility to the group that they engage in atrocities.

A chrisitian Nation is one whose core values are based on Christian beliefs…whether they actually follow them or not.

I don’t see that the US is. The Constitution has at least as much in common with philosophies of the enlightenment as with Christian doctirine. What are the core US values you believe come from Christianity?

“Which kind of governments have the least tendancy for abuse and atrocity?”
and additionally:
“Which kind have the greatest tendancy for abuse and atrocity?”

I submit the theory that a Democracy based on chrisitian values is the answer to the first one…and a totalitarian government with an atheist ruler is the answer to the second…

To the first one the answer is “no government.” The lack of a government can’t commit an atrocity. To the second one I’d suggest that a tyrant who is a member of a religion that persecutes others will have all the motivations of an atheist to commit atrocities plus those of his faith.

Soooo…the point I was making is that our nation is based on Chrisitian values of what is right and wrong (even if we don’t always live up to them) and that defines us as a christian nation. Whereas a Nation such as North Korea is an Atheist nation and is notorious for abuse and horrible attrocity.

My point would be the opposite. The US is a secular nation and one of the better examples of the world (sad as that truly is).

 

[AnAtheist]

Lisa4Catholics:

Will you do me a favor and look at the links and read them and please do not make any decisions on the facts until you look and do research on the assertions God Bless

I have looked up another source regarding planned parenthood:
Adolf Hitler:

Wer also dem deutschen Volke das Dasein sichern will auf dem Wege einer Selbstbeschränkung seiner Vermehrung, raubt ihm damit die Zukunft.

I try to translate that:

Who tries to ensure the existence of the German people by self -restraint of its propagation, thus loots its future.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Tlaloc:

I’d disagree. Groups of humans commit terrible acts. Individual humans are usually quite decent. For some reason its when they give up their personal responsibility to the group that they engage in atrocities.

I don’t see that the US is. The Constitution has at least as much in common with philosophies of the enlightenment as with Christian doctirine. What are the core US values you believe come from Christianity?

To the first one the answer is “no government.” The lack of a government can’t commit an atrocity. To the second one I’d suggest that a tyrant who is a member of a religion that persecutes others will have all the motivations of an atheist to commit atrocities plus those of his faith.

My point would be the opposite. The US is a secular nation and one of the better examples of the world (sad as that truly is).

 

[gardenswithkids]

Groups of humans commit terrible acts. Individual humans are usually quite decent. For some reason its when they give up their personal responsibility to the group that they engage in atrocities.

I believe that the quality of “greatness” goes both ways. Anything capable of great good is also capable of great evil. That is why groups of humans can commit far worse acts than individuals alone–because as a group they have the synergy to accomplish more. It seems atheists look at the worst acts of those claiming religion and therefore draw the conclusion that there must be no God. But you fail to look at the best that religion accomplishes. If you studied the great good that is done by in the name of God and religion, you would probably change your position.

World War II shows us great evil done by a collection of very talented individuals who combined their effort to accomplish horrible attrocities. Anatheist is quoting Hitler to dispute the influence of the Nazi’s on planned parenthood. But I point out that Hitler refered to the “German people”, and he did not consider all people who lived in Germany to be “worthy” of reproduction. Forced sterilization (and much worse) occured to some, while others were encouraged to breed.

The organization that later became Planned Parenthood originally only encouraged the “undesirables” to limit their reproduction. (Catholics were included in the list of undesirables.) Someone also asked how eugenics can take place through a voluntary activity. Birth control is encourage so strongly that everyone is expected to use it. In the U.S. those of us who do not use birth control are heavily pressured to do so. This happens in doctor’s offices, in hospitals, at family functions, at neighborhood functions, and on television and in parenting magazines.

I’d like to ramble on more about the good that faith in God does, but I need to go care for those “products of conceptions” of mine before they engage in any atrocities. I have more than just an individual to raise; I have an entire group. And I hope to raise them right in a God-loving home so that they can accomplish great good and live joyful lives.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

AnAtheist:

I have looked up another source regarding planned parenthood:
I try to translate that:

Does that mean you will look at the links please?If you don’t agree fine but to be fair I went to the trouble to do the search for them and put them down,would you please read them?God Bless
PS you can look at them at your leisure

 

[Tlaloc]

gardenswithkids:

I believe that the quality of “greatness” goes both ways. Anything capable of great good is also capable of great evil. That is why groups of humans can commit far worse acts than individuals alone–because as a group they have the synergy to accomplish more.

But the enduring nature of groups and the truism that Power corrupts (than you lord Acton) means groups not only can but will do great evil. An individual may remain uncorrupted throughout their life.

It seems atheists look at the worst acts of those claiming religion and therefore draw the conclusion that there must be no God.

For the record I’m not an atheist but I generally feel that Religion (a man made instituion) doesn’t reflect at all on God. Spritiuality is about God. Religion is about Churches.

But you fail to look at the best that religion accomplishes. If you studied the great good that is done by in the name of God and religion, you would probably change your position.

I believe a lot of good has been done by spiritual men and women and some of them have been in the Church. But take away the church (or nation, or corporation, or whatever) and the good stuff remains while the bad stuff decreases exponentially.

"Someone also asked how eugenics can take place through a voluntary activity. "

not eugenics, genocide.

Birth control is encourage so strongly that everyone is expected to use it. In the U.S. those of us who do not use birth control are heavily pressured to do so. This happens in doctor’s offices, in hospitals, at family functions, at neighborhood functions, and on television and in parenting magazines.

Whatever pressure you feel is there to get those who believe in it but fail to practice it to actually do it. Not to force it on anyone who disagrees.

 

[wolpertinger]

I said: “so for balance look at what what Planned Parenthood has to say” (emphasis added)…

You reply:

Lisa4Catholics:

Just as a side note do you expect planned parenthood to be unbiased?

**

I encourage you to read carefully before laughing. Where did I say that Planned Parenthood is unbiased regarding Margaret Sanger?**

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

wolpertinger:

I said: “so for balance look at what what Planned Parenthood has to say” (emphasis added)…

You reply:

I encourage you to read carefully before laughing. Where did I say that Planned Parenthood is unbiased regarding Margaret Sanger?****wolpertinger, I have a sense of humor,I do not bite,I just got tickled and expressed it on the key board.Lighten up and be happy I am not trying to offend you I just have I guess a strange sense of humor.God Bless You

 

[AnAtheist]

Lisa4Catholics:

Does that mean you will look at the links please?If you don’t agree fine but to be fair I went to the trouble to do the search for them and put them down,would you please read them?God Bless
PS you can look at them at your leisure

I did look at the links. And I tell you, what bugs me:
In the US you would probably not notice that, but here in Germany the comparison with Nazis is often used to silence the other side of a debate. Nazi == SUPEREVIL, hence if you say or do something remotely identifiable as something, the Nazis said or did, you are SUPEREVIL. Which is nonsense of course, Nazis brushed their teeth too, so should we stop doing that?
And once I find an article that uses wrong historical facts to enforce its statement, I stop reading. Fact is fact. Granted some facts are debateble, but some are not.
To claim abortion was legal in Nazi Germany to construct an argument against arbortion is wrong. It does the rightful fight against abortion no good. Unless of course you think, lying for a good cause is right, but I doubt you do that.

Now to this Margaret Sanger: It seems she had some kind of impact on the US society, but believe me, here in Germany (incl. '33 - '45) neither she nor her ideology are known. She had no influence whatsover on what the Nazis did. I don’t argue against your argument against her or her philosophy, I just argue against the connection between her and Nazi Germany. As I said that’s a cultural thing, because here in Germany connections like that are made all day to defame people as Nazis, whether they desrve it or not.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

AnAtheist:

I did look at the links. And I tell you, what bugs me:
In the US you would probably not notice that, but here in Germany the comparison with Nazis is often used to silence the other side of a debate. Nazi == SUPEREVIL, hence if you say or do something remotely identifiable as something, the Nazis said or did, you are SUPEREVIL. Which is nonsense of course, Nazis brushed their teeth too, so should we stop doing that?
And once I find an article that uses wrong historical facts to enforce its statement, I stop reading. Fact is fact. Granted some facts are debateble, but some are not.
To claim abortion was legal in Nazi Germany to construct an argument against arbortion is wrong. It does the rightful fight against abortion no good. Unless of course you think, lying for a good cause is right, but I doubt you do that.

Now to this Margaret Sanger: It seems she had some kind of impact on the US society, but believe me, here in Germany (incl. '33 - '45) neither she nor her ideology are known. She had no influence whatsover on what the Nazis did. I don’t argue against your argument against her or her philosophy, I just argue against the connection between her and Nazi Germany. As I said that’s a cultural thing, because here in Germany connections like that are made all day to defame people as Nazis, whether they desrve it or not.

I am sorry that people are called nazis over there.:crying: I will explain the Margerate Sanger connection so that you will understand.She had no influence on the Nazis,she studied the Nazi methods of dehumanization using terminology and euginics,to try to keep certain people “who were not worthy to breed” .She is the founder of planned parenthood whose ideolgies are the same all in the name of “rights” and “choices”.Abortion is the number one killer of black americans:nope: There are 36 million black americans in the US since roe V wade in 1973 15 million black were exterminated in abortion mills.Planned parenthood goes out of its way to look benign,but at its core it pushes death of “the poor,the minority’s,the disabled”,who the see as inferior.So I was not trying to throw a name out to just attack:nope: I think you are very nice and I just do not have that kind of disposition.The ideology of these radical groups are rotten to the core,and do not need to be hidden because of fear of being politically incorrect.They are wolves in sheeps clothing.God Bless
PS.If I offended you I am sorry it certainly was not my intent, I have no qualms with Germany:ehh: I will also pray that people stop using that as an insult that is really mean:nope:

 

[wolpertinger]

Lisa4Catholics:

Abortion is the number one killer of black americans

I believe what you meant to say was that poverty is the number one cause of abortions among the African American population.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

wolpertinger:

I believe what you meant to say was that poverty is the number one cause of abortions among the African American population.

Impoverished people are one of the targets for abortions.They fit under people unworthy to breed.Nice,huh?The funny thing is after the abortion they are still poor The murder of the innocent accomplished nothing except another death.

 

[Tlaloc]

Lisa4Catholics:

Impoverished people are one of the targets for abortions.They fit under people unworthy to breed.Nice,huh?The funny thing is after the abortion they are still poor The murder of the innocent accomplished nothing except another death.

Funny thing is that having another kid would have made them more poor and meant another child possibly going hungry. It makes more sense for the poor to use abortion as it is often financially motivated. Furthermore the poor are less likely to afford decent birth control as it can be seen as a luxury unfortunately.

A national system providing free birth control would help alleviate some that problem, but let me guess how you’d feel about that…