Why be Catholic at all?

[Neophyte1780]

I don’t understand your point.

 

[Neophyte1780]

two points:

1. I have in no way said I am leaving my commitment to nor obedience to the church.
2. this does not mean those working in the church cannot make a mistake that I can’t critique.

 

[neophyte]

Please see the above arguments rather than giving a blanket statement without proof.

You’re the one who has made a blanket statement without proof. Your premise is based entirely on your own erroneous assumptions.

 

[Neophyte1780]

This is blatantly false. I have given plenty of proof above.

 

[Neophyte1780]

I just want to say. I appreciate everyone who has taken this question seriously. Some want to shoot down my points as if I am obviously wrong, while from the outside perspective, this is a serious concern.

My point is being made by many. It is serious and should be discussed.

God bless you all

 

[Gorgias]

But I haven’t recieved the sacrament of baptism. This finds the crux of my argument: if I can be saved without baptism then I don’t need it.

If you know that the Church is essential for salvation, and accept that this is true, then you cannot be saved without the graces of baptism.

There is such a thing as “baptism by desire”, of course, and this applies to you in particular: the elect – that is, you! – receive the graces of baptism if you die prior to actually participating in the sacrament of baptism.

(That’s why your line of thought doesn’t hold up; your line of logic fails to hold.)

 

[Neophyte1780]

The baptism of desire doesn’t save me now. It only is a failsafe. I am still in my sin regardless. I may be saved from eternal damnation by a baptism by desire, but correct me if I am wrong by saying that sacramental baptism is essential to live in Christ in a perfect state of grace in this life?

Ergo, how does my logic fail?

God bless

 

[Emeraldlady]

But I haven’t recieved the sacrament of baptism. This finds the crux of my argument: if I can be saved without baptism then I don’t need it. If I don’t need it, then it’s non-essential. If it’s essential, then it needs to be available.

Have you read what the Catechism says?

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
…

If it’s essential, then it needs to be available. It isn’t available, ergo, the current leaders of the church don’t seem to believe it’s truly essential.

I don’t think having such a negative attitude towards the Pope and the vast majority of the worlds Bishops, predisposes you to understanding.

 

[neophyte]

This is blatantly false. I have given plenty of proof above.

Youve given your opinions of what the actions of the Bishops mean. Those personal opinions are not proof of anything other than the fact that they are your personal opinions.

 

[Neophyte1780]

My syllogism is not an opinion. It is a demonstrative evidence which is truth preserving. (Unless you disprove the statements in the syllogism)

 

[Gorgias]

The baptism of desire doesn’t save me now. It only is a failsafe. I am still in my sin regardless. I may be saved from eternal damnation by a baptism by desire, but correct me if I am wrong by saying that sacramental baptism is essential to live in Christ in a perfect state of grace in this life?

Ergo, how does my logic fail?

Yes, you’re mistaken. You can be saved, by virtue of ‘baptism of desire’ in lieu of sacramental baptism, if you should pass away prior to the baptism that you’ve planned on participating in.

Ergo, how does my logic fail?

So, let’s look at your chain of ‘logic’:

if I can be saved without baptism then I don’t need it.

If you know and accept the necessity of the Church and the sacraments, then you need the graces of the sacraments.

If I don’t need it, then it’s non-essential.

You need it.

If it’s essential, then it needs to be available.

You can receive the graces of baptism, in your particular case, even if physical baptism is not currently available, due to a prevailing situation.

The graces are available to you, even if, in a particular situation, the administration of the sacrament isn’t possible.

It isn’t available, ergo, the current leaders of the church don’t seem to believe it’s truly essential.

Nope. The leaders of the Church recognize that the graces are available to you, even if the administration of the sacrament is not possible at current. Therefore, it does not follow that they do not believe that the graces of the sacrament are truly essential.

 

[Neophyte1780]

The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them

Nota bene

Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament

NB

The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

This does not mean that the sacrament of baptism is non-essential (which is how the Church seems to be currently acting by according with the state a non-essential status to public sacraments). This only works post-mortem, as far I know.

Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

I am not ignorant of Christ.

I don’t think having such a negative attitude towards the Pope and the vast majority of the worlds Bishops, predisposes you to understanding.

This ad hominem does nothing to further your point.

 

[neophyte]

My syllogism is not an opinion. It is a demonstrative evidence which is truth preserving. (Unless you disprove the statements in the syllogism)

The premise I noted is manifestly false. I suggest that you become more familiar with Catholic teaching.

Given that you seem unreasonably attached to your own opinion, carry on as you wish.

 

[Neophyte1780]

You can be saved, by virtue of ‘baptism of desire’ in lieu of sacramental baptism,

if you should pass away prior to the baptism that you’ve planned on participating in.

Do you see what you just said: IF I PASS AWAY. What about now? Do I not now need it while I live?

You can receive the graces of baptism, in your particular case, even if physical baptism is not currently available, due to a prevailing situation.

The graces are available to you, even if, in a particular situation, the administration of the sacrament isn’t possible.

How are they available now, in this present moment while I live? If I received the Lord now, based on a baptism of desire, alive, I would be drinking judgement on myself because I should be considered as in a state of mortal sin outside of the church due to original sin. Yes, if I die, I won’t be damned because I did desire it, but I do not receive the graces now. Unless I am mistaken.

The leaders of the Church recognize that the graces are available to you, even if the administration of the sacrament is not possible at current.

If the graces are available outside of the sacrament then the sacrament isn’t necessary.

Ergo, you are saying they are non-essential.

 

[Neophyte1780]

You still haven’t show how it is “manifestly” false. Please do demonstrate to me how my syllogism is incorrect. I truly am humble and will admit I am wrong if you show me.

The ad hominem that I am ignorant does nothing to disprove my point.

 

[Aquinas11]

Yes ok I agree now I see what you meant

I heard today this is first time since Constantine that public Mass not available

 

[Gorgias]

Do you see what you just said: IF I PASS AWAY. What about now? Do I not now need it while I live?

Well… strictly speaking…

no?

I mean, baptism is the gateway to the other sacraments. So, yeah… you need to be baptized in order that you might receive the Eucharist, or that you might participate in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, or in any of the other sacraments. But, if we’re talking solely about salvation, then actually… no. Someone who is baptized and then dies, or who dies prior to having the opportunity to participate in the baptism in which he is preparing to participate… well, he is saved, too!

So… “is it beneficial to your spiritual life?”… yeah! Is it necessary for salvation, though? That question is a more nuanced one, and one which I’m hoping we’re unveiling for you!

How are they available now, in this present moment while I live?

You are preparing for them. Your preparation makes them available to you, if you should need these graces (i.e., at the hour of death). Otherwise, your preparation makes you ready to receive them at baptism.

If I received the Lord now, based on a baptism of desire, alive, I would be drinking judgement on myself because I should be considered as in a state of mortal sin outside of the church due to original sin.

Wait… what? A “baptism of desire”, by definition, happens at death to catechumens who die without baptism.

Moreover, you’re not “in a state of mortal sin” due to original sin. You’re in a state of mortal sin if you’ve committed personal mortal sin. “Original sin” isn’t personal sin; it’s sin “by analogy”, according to the Catechism.

Yes, if I die, I won’t be damned because I did desire it, but I do not receive the graces now. Unless I am mistaken.

This is correct. You will receive sanctifying grace if you die before you were able to be baptized. You will be saved, and better yet, you will not have any of the “temporal punishment due to sin”, so, no purgation necessary.

If the graces are available outside of the sacrament then the sacrament isn’t necessary.

The graces are only available to one who is preparing for baptism. If you walk away from the Church, thinking that baptism isn’t necessary, then you will – by definition – no longer be “preparing for baptism”, and therefore, you will not experience a “baptism of desire” at your death. Therefore: still essential.

I heard today this is first time since Constantine that public Mass not available

Not true, unless you mean “world-wide” (which I even think isn’t true at this moment). Back in the U.S., during the so-called “Spanish Flu” pandemic, churches were shut down (just as they are, today).

 

[Day]

Well no harm in trying a different approach

 

[Neophyte1780]

Well… strictly speaking…

no?

I’ll give you the benefit of a doubt that you don’t truly believe this. If I do not now need it, what purpose is the sacramental nature of our religion? Is it then superfluous as long as I go to heaven? Is that why Christ came and God created us all for? For heaven? Surely not! He created us to love Him, and in the final beatitude of the new heaven and new earth. If only the soul in heaven is what matters than we surely fall into the gnostic heresy of the platonic body/prison.

I mean, baptism is the gateway to the other sacraments.

Baptism is not merely a gateway, it is the marking out of one person by Christ, and after which one receives the gifts of the Holy Ghost. After baptism, one becomes a walking tabernacle of the Holy Trinity. Tell me again why I do not need this now even though I might still be saved? Did God not become man in this life to sanctify the importance of it?

if we’re talking solely about salvation

I am not speaking solely of salvation. This is a much too narrow definition of religion, for the first command of Christ is to love God, not to be saved by Him. (though indeed through His love we are saved.) I am speaking of whether or not the sacrament of initiation is absolutely necessary and thus whether or not there is an urgency in fact in which one should hasten to receive it. I think in fact the answer is yes, yet the current crisis has clearly show that there are many who think no.

So… “is it beneficial to your spiritual life?”… yeah! Is it necessary for salvation, though? That question is a more nuanced one, and one which I’m hoping we’re unveiling for you!

This was never the question at all. Though I do appreciate many views you and others have given to me on this topic. I wonder if the way you have delineated the need for the sacrament in some sense diminishes the urgency with which one ought to feel about receiving it. It is absolutely necessary and urgent that one be baptized, not only for the benefits of it regarding salvation, but also for the most obvious benefits in this present life. If one would concede one but not the other, is he not a gnostic and lukewarm in his faith?

PART TWO WILL FOLLOW

 

[Neophyte1780]

Moreover, you’re not “in a state of mortal sin” due to original sin. You’re in a state of mortal sin if you’ve committed personal mortal sin. “Original sin” isn’t personal sin; it’s sin “by analogy”, according to the Catechism.

Of course I am in a state of mortal sin because of original sin. If I die with the stain of original sin, I am immediately damned. If by some mercy of Christ I am purged of said stain because of my desire to receive baptism, that is an altogether different question. While original sin isn’t personal, as you are correct to state that, surely it comes accompanied by mortal sin inasmuch as it lends one towards extreme concupiscence. I think we are missing here the trees for the forest.

The graces are only available to one who is preparing for baptism. If you walk away from the Church, thinking that baptism isn’t necessary, then you will – by definition – no longer be “preparing for baptism”, and therefore, you will not experience a “baptism of desire” at your death. Therefore: still essential.

This is sound logic and I think you are right. But perhaps some have misunderstood me, I don’t think personally that any sacrament is non-essential. I am arguing (per the lines of my syllogism given above) that the present establishment in the Church have acted (and thus have implicitly stated) that they are non-essential.

during the so-called “Spanish Flu” pandemic, churches were shut down (just as they are, today).

As far as I am aware, this was not as entire as it is now. I am not aware of the church then forbidding the life-saving practice of baptism for those who needed it. Further, only certain diocesan churches closed then, not every diocese in the country, and then, the Bishops who were less lukewarm than our current fold, protested the decisions in some cases. This is as far as I have read.

Thank you for discussing this openly with me. God bless and I hope you have a great Palm Sunday!