Why Can't Anyone Have A Different Opinion About The Holocaust?

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Here is the essentail facts as i understand them. There were about 11 million Jews in Europe before Hitler instituted his systematic murder of the Jewish people. And there were approximately 5 million jews after.

Of the 6 million jews that were murdered, 1,000,000 of them were children.

In addition to the 6 million jews murdered, people were murdered who were accused of having Jewish grand parents.

And in addition to these people, millions of others were sent to the camps and murdered/worked to death for a variety of reasons.
 
Think about it. A “partial” Jew can be any descendant of the Old Testament Jew, can’t he, even if he or she doesn’t know it. And then include all the Jewish women who converted to Catholicism. Catholicism has very deep roots, after all. So if Hitler killed 10 million, a number many historians can probably agree on, one can easily make a case that six million were Jews. But that doesn’t mean that there were all Jews in the religious or practicing sense.
Of course it doesn’t. It meant they were Jews in the Nazi sense, at least; see previous posts. Which still could put the Jews at anywhere from 3-6 million, and the “Catholic” Jews as even more.

Killed is killed; Jew, half Jew, quarter Jew, Catholic military- intellectual-scholar-government official from Poland, homosexual (could fall into more than one category), Romany, Seventh Day Adventist. Complete total far exceeds the 3-4 to 6 million.

Busy times.

GKC
 
Valke, what did you think of that old Jewish couple that have been on every talk show including Oprah and how they lied to the world about being at the Holocaust and they were in fact never there? What do you say about them? They fooled everyone.
I don’t understand why you keep bringing this up? There are immoral and dishonest people in every group, every culture, every religion. The Catholic Church has had to face that herself. So have our Protestant brothers. What is your point?
 
Here’s what I found from Wikipedia:
The slaughter was systematically conducted in virtually all areas of Nazi-occupied territory in what are now 35 separate European countries.[23] It was at its worst in Central and Eastern Europe, which had more than seven million Jews in 1939. About five million Jews were killed there, including three million in occupied Poland and over one million in the Soviet Union. Hundreds of thousands also died in the Netherlands, France, Belgium, Yugoslavia and Greece. The Wannsee Protocol makes clear that the Nazis also intended to carry out their “final solution of the Jewish question” in England and Ireland.[24]
Anyone with three or four Jewish grandparents was to be exterminated without exception. In other genocides, people were able to escape death by converting to another religion or in some other way assimilating. This option was not available to the Jews of occupied Europe.[25] All persons of recent Jewish ancestry were to be exterminated in lands controlled by Germany.[26]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust
 
**I would like to know why people cannot have a different opinion about the Holocaust without being condemned for it. **
It’s so simple.
One cannot hold your view and claim it is the Catholic view.

It is opposite of the Catholic view. God gave us two European Popes, back to back, to see that we understand that. Now, what’s your next concern?
 
Perfectly true.
I went to edit/clarify but was too late.

The European Popes who were Italian Europeans (excluding perhaps, John XXIII) were rather different in personal histories from the two recent Popes of European-heritage.

A Pope from the blood-soaked Killing Fields of Poland …
A Pope from the administrative Killing Center of Germany …

The Church is graced by the treasure of their witness of WWII and in so many other ways too.
 
hmmmmm…lucky you…and what about the French??? 🙂
SiIx years of academic French, culminating in a year long class on French literature, history, and etc, conducted completely in French.

But that was 43 years ago.

And if I was really lucky, magistra would still be here to teach me. Instead of living around 1500 miles away.

LIfe is sad.

GKC
 
Valke, what did you think of that old Jewish couple that have been on every talk show including Oprah and how they lied to the world about being at the Holocaust and they were in fact never there? What do you say about them? They fooled everyone.
OTCA what did you think of the child molesting priests revealed in the U.S. in the recent past? They lied to their parishioners, commited horrible crimes, and were in fact often covered up by their superiors. What do you say about them? They fooled everyone.
 
SiIx years of academic French, culminating in a year long class on French literature, history, and etc, conducted completely in French.

But that was 43 years ago.

And if I was really lucky, magistra would still be here to teach me. Instead of living around 1500 miles away.

LIfe is sad.

GKC
Wow…I wish I had known about you when first trying to translate letters from my 3rd cousin in France! But you did say 43 years ago and I guess that is a long time to retain something unless you have had an opportunity to use it! I’m impressed.
 
Wow…I wish I had known about you when first trying to translate letters from my 3rd cousin in France! But you did say 43 years ago and I guess that is a long time to retain something unless you have had an opportunity to use it! I’m impressed.
According to my daughter, vocabulary is the first thing to go. I think it’s grammar.

I have forgotten most of the rules, but I can sometimes fake my way through a passage of French, with a dictionary. Some time back, on another board, someone posted a speech given by Pope Benedict, with various parts done in various langauges, maybe 5-6 all told. The challenge was for the board to translate it. I offered to try the French portion, and must have gotten it pretty close. At least I wasn’t corrected.

But, for all practical purposes, I’ve forgotten l*a langue *

GKC
 
Good gravy. I have set my page view to 100 posts per page, and in the one day since I last read here, it has gone up two pages… :eek:

No, the Holocaust did not affect ONLY Jews. I don’t think anyone would say that. Maximilian Kolbe certainly wouldn’t.

The difference is: as far as I know – and has been mentioned earlier – any other group may have been able to “escape” persecution by giving up whatever it was that drew the persecution. Catholic clergy were persecuted – but generally only those that opposed the Reich (high-ranking clergy were given honorary ranks in the SS to get them on board in the early days – when the Nazis seemed to be only right-wing anti-communist nationalists). Obviously one could be Catholic and a member of the Party.

Jehovah’s Witnesses were opposed because the were pacifists. Gays were targeted because they were “anti-social”. The leftists – from moderate trade unionists and social democrats through to dyed-in-the-wool Marxists – were persecuted for political reasons. Most, if not all, could be “rehabilitated” if they eschewed that which made them objectionable. In the case of gays, I seem to recall psychological experiments in Germany to “cure” homosexuality: the fact that this was tried at all indicates a Nazi mentality towards possible assimilation.

In the case of people who were “racially inferior” – e.g. Slavs – one could hope to assimilate or survive, if nothing else as a slave labourer – altho’ I believe the Nazis would target them for eventual elimination.

The difference was that there was no “out” – no way, no where, no how – for Jews. While Slavs may have been seen as little better (or possibly worse) than livestock, the Jews were seen as vermin, suitable only for extermination.

The only “undesirable trait” that could not be expunged, by conversion, or rehabilitation, or “curing”, was Jewishness. The only group that had to wear an identifying badge outside of the camps were the Jews. The only Question for which the Nazis decided a Final Solution was needed was for the Jews.

Even when the war went against the Nazis, and they knew the war was lost, they continued to exterminate Jews – almost with a desperate fervour, as if the end of the war might interrupt their genocide, as if the genocide itself were more important than the Reich itself.

The single-mindedness with which the Nazis carried out their attempt to wipe the Jews – and specifically the Jews – from the face of the earth cannot be disputed. In comparison, the other targets were almost of the level of afterthough. I would wager – and I think it would be a safe one – that if you gathered 100 of any “undesirables” (gays, Slavs, JWs, whatever) on one side and 1 lone Jew on the other, the Nazis would have expended their efforts to destroy the Jew if they only had the one choice.

The Holocaust is not a “Jewish thing” because the Jews made it so – the Nazis made it so. If you were a Jew, there was no escape. Maximilian Kolbe might have been spared if he had kept his head down and not opposed the regime: but conversion couldn’t, wouldn’t, and didn’t save Edith Stein.

I accept the 6,000,000 figure. It has enough attestation & citation to satisfy me. That some experts believe the number may be a little smaller – I could buy it if I could read the lit. That the number may have been higher, I would not be surprised – it wouldn’t shock me that the Nazis didn’t go on the odd killing spree without keeping notes. But in the tens or hundreds of thousands only? And no gas chambers? I can’t stomach that notion, let alone seriously entertain it.

And my personal opinion is that anyone else who holds to that notion is, to be as charitable as I can be, seriously deluded. And that any sin accrued by adhering to that lie may be mitigated by mental state.

And the numbers of the Jews who died in the Shoah HAS NOTHING TO DO with the Gospel of John, or liars on Oprah, or Israel’s actions in Gaza, or the fact that so many people in the media are named Katzenberg or Cohen.

It ONLY has to do with the fact that they died because they were Jews.
 
Good gravy. I have set my page view to 100 posts per page, and in the one day since I last read here, it has gone up two pages… :eek:

No, the Holocaust did not affect ONLY Jews. I don’t think anyone would say that. Maximilian Kolbe certainly wouldn’t.

The difference is: as far as I know – and has been mentioned earlier – any other group may have been able to “escape” persecution by giving up whatever it was that drew the persecution. Catholic clergy were persecuted – but generally only those that opposed the Reich (high-ranking clergy were given honorary ranks in the SS to get them on board in the early days – when the Nazis seemed to be only right-wing anti-communist nationalists). Obviously one could be Catholic and a member of the Party.

Jehovah’s Witnesses were opposed because the were pacifists. Gays were targeted because they were “anti-social”. The leftists – from moderate trade unionists and social democrats through to dyed-in-the-wool Marxists – were persecuted for political reasons. Most, if not all, could be “rehabilitated” if they eschewed that which made them objectionable. In the case of gays, I seem to recall psychological experiments in Germany to “cure” homosexuality: the fact that this was tried at all indicates a Nazi mentality towards possible assimilation.

In the case of people who were “racially inferior” – e.g. Slavs – one could hope to assimilate or survive, if nothing else as a slave labourer – altho’ I believe the Nazis would target them for eventual elimination.

The difference was that there was no “out” – no way, no where, no how – for Jews. While Slavs may have been seen as little better (or possibly worse) than livestock, the Jews were seen as vermin, suitable only for extermination.

The only “undesirable trait” that could not be expunged, by conversion, or rehabilitation, or “curing”, was Jewishness. The only group that had to wear an identifying badge outside of the camps were the Jews. The only Question for which the Nazis decided a Final Solution was needed was for the Jews.

Even when the war went against the Nazis, and they knew the war was lost, they continued to exterminate Jews – almost with a desperate fervour, as if the end of the war might interrupt their genocide, as if the genocide itself were more important than the Reich itself.

The single-mindedness with which the Nazis carried out their attempt to wipe the Jews – and specifically the Jews – from the face of the earth cannot be disputed. In comparison, the other targets were almost of the level of afterthough. I would wager – and I think it would be a safe one – that if you gathered 100 of any “undesirables” (gays, Slavs, JWs, whatever) on one side and 1 lone Jew on the other, the Nazis would have expended their efforts to destroy the Jew if they only had the one choice.

The Holocaust is not a “Jewish thing” because the Jews made it so – the Nazis made it so. If you were a Jew, there was no escape. Maximilian Kolbe might have been spared if he had kept his head down and not opposed the regime: but conversion couldn’t, wouldn’t, and didn’t save Edith Stein.

I accept the 6,000,000 figure. It has enough attestation & citation to satisfy me. That some experts believe the number may be a little smaller – I could buy it if I could read the lit. That the number may have been higher, I would not be surprised – it wouldn’t shock me that the Nazis didn’t go on the odd killing spree without keeping notes. But in the tens or hundreds of thousands only? And no gas chambers? I can’t stomach that notion, let alone seriously entertain it.

And my personal opinion is that anyone else who holds to that notion is, to be as charitable as I can be, seriously deluded. And that any sin accrued by adhering to that lie may be mitigated by mental state.

And the numbers of the Jews who died in the Shoah HAS NOTHING TO DO with the Gospel of John, or liars on Oprah, or Israel’s actions in Gaza, or the fact that so many people in the media are named Katzenberg or Cohen.

It ONLY has to do with the fact that they died because they were Jews.
Amen.

GKC
 
I believe the difference of opinion about the Mass killings of civilians which included Christians and Jews is the name that most people take for granted as “Truth”.

The word “Holocaust”? is what divides the opinions of what happened not necessasarily of what happened.

You see those who made it legal to kill Jews and Christians do not consider this killing a Sacred Sacrifice to God in the form of going up to God by a male victim only. The Term “Holocaust” does not fit the action. For one, these mass murders included both Christians (Catholics) and Jews of both Male, female genders, including children.

I believe if the term Holocaust can be justified as being applied to all the victims both Christians and Jews maybe the opinions may change in favor of; But the Jews cannot apply a Jewish sacrifice that includes Christians or else it may defile their attempt to justify their deaths to God as a “Holocaust” or sacred sacrifice offered up to God without including the other children, women and Christians.

So when you say “Holocaust” I question whether or not your including all victims or just Jews? If your “Holocaust” term only applies to Jews, then I as a Catholic would have a personal opinion of denying such a case ever took place. If your applying the term “Holocaust” to all the victims including women, children and Christians and Jewish men, then I as a Catholic would agree that such a Sacrifice or Holocaust did take place. That is just my personal opinion.

Peace be with you
 
^^ Interesting points. I’m curious what your opinion is of the controversial figures who have been discussed in this thread, especially Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Richard Williamson.
 
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