Why can't Fr. Jenkins be fired?

[MichaelTDoyle]

To all the “right wing Catholics”, the same ones who are hypocritical by how they try to force their views on everyone else in protest and at the same time are the same ones who go to Notre Dame or any other Catholic university and have the abortions or engage in any sinful way against Church teachings. I pray for you. To simply try to deny the Leader of the Free World his acceptance to speak at commencement; just reflects how distant your heart is and how true right wing you have become. What about a famous celebrity, who claims to be a conservative Catholic, one who states his “marriage” has not been this for 3 years and who has a girlfriend that he brazenly acknowledges on a popular late night show that she is pregnant. How do you feel about this? And we all should pray…

No right or left issue regarding abortion. The Church’s teaching is clear. abortion is an intrinsic evil. Do you know what is meant by intrinsic? That means it is always evil.

This is not about politics, it is about following Christ.

For a Catholic to vote for Obama and be faithful leads one to believe that such a Catholic has a problem with critical thinking as there were no proportionate reasons to abortion. This was plainly evident to anyone who could examine the issues at stake. Assuming such peoeple remain unable to construct logical statements and Church teaching in consonance with truth, it’s reasonable to assume they could be fooled by the idea that an honor is dialogue, and the debate is one of differences of opinion than that of ripping a child from his mother’s womb and throwing him in the garbage.

Rhetoric can sabotage an undisciplined mind. Pray. Pray. Pray. Pray the Rosary seriously. Mary will obtain the grace for you to see how awful this is. Love Jesus.

 

[tcm22]

The cowardly thing to do would have been to cave in to the shouting mob that demanded that the invitation to the President should be rescinded. Fr. Jenkins gave a superb speech. Most of the screamers for him to resign (or be kicked out) are hard-headed Republicans who despise Obama. I think Obama needs to be given a chance, Moreover, Obama achieved enormous things during his limited years, including long-time service on the streets of a Black ghetto once had graduated from Harvard Law School while nearly all his classmates headed for law firms that paid huge salaries. This is Christianity in action rather than the greed we see so much of in America today.

 I know that to many good people, including many Catholics, abortion seems to be the issue that supercedes all others. Obama wants to see fewer and fewer abortions, as they will never go away whether they are legal or illegal. Personally, I think that in certain conditions abortion could be the lesser evil. For example, if an abortion could save the life of the mother of several young children. Or, if a girl is gang-raped. I am equally concerned about the health and welfare of the living. Besides, the large majority of abortions are natural - miscarriages. Who causes them? God? I'm sure that their souls and the souls of all babies who die, whether in the womb or in the crib, find eternal happiness and peace in the arms of Jesus. I worry as much, or more, about innocent young men and women sent to kill other innocent people in unnecessary wars caused in large measure by greedy industrialists, politicians and tyrants. The Pope condemned the invasion of Iraq, and I bet many of the anti-Obama crowd didn't speak out against that diversion from our real enemy in Afghanistan. Etc.

 Much more to say, but - again - God bless Fr. Jenkins, God bless President Obama, God bless America - and, yes, God bless the whole world, no exceptions. That includes you, whatever your opinion.

 PS By the way, I am NOT and never have been a Democrat. I am suspicious of both parties and vote independently.

You fail to address any of the key points of contention and dismiss the whole event as something dreamed up by “hard-headed” Republicans. The fact is – and it’s been presented well by others in this thread – that the Bishops of the United States specifically called for Catholic institutions to refrain from bestowing honors upon figures who are in conflict with the basic doctrines and moral teachings of the Church. Father Jenkins failed to adhere to that directive. I’m no canon lawyer, so I can’t answer whether he was legally required to do so, but morally he was wrong. That’s not courage. Courage is doing the right thing in tough circumstances and doing what you believe despite what those around you say. If bestowing honors on Obama was what he believes, he has no business being a Priest or serving as President of a “Catholic” University.

As for Obama’s words about wanting “fewer and fewer” abortions, he also pledged to support the FOCA without qualification. His track record as a legislator has been one of a staunch pro-abortionist. Yeah, I heard what he said. I’ve heard him carefully construct beautiful speeches designed to obfuscate and muddy issues of stark moral clarity.

That he worked the ghettos of Chicago is fact. It’s debatable whether it was done out of conviction or a desire to establish his political credentials. When all is said and done, what did he actually accomplish there, or in the Illinois state legislature, or in the Senate. He’s one of the most underaccomplished men to ever ascend to the Presidency. With the exception of a 100% NARAL rating, I’m not sure what he’s really accomplished in the realm of law that prompted Fr Jenkins and ND to recognize him.

I think you’ve got your warm fuzzy feelings about Obama ahead of your rational and moral barometer.

To all the “right wing Catholics”, the same ones who are hypocritical by how they try to force their views on everyone else in protest and at the same time are the same ones who go to Notre Dame or any other Catholic university and have the abortions or engage in any sinful way against Church teachings. I pray for you. To simply try to deny the Leader of the Free World his acceptance to speak at commencement; just reflects how distant your heart is and how true right wing you have become. What about a famous celebrity, who claims to be a conservative Catholic, one who states his “marriage” has not been this for 3 years and who has a girlfriend that he brazenly acknowledges on a popular late night show that she is pregnant. How do you feel about this? And we all should pray…

We are all hypocrites and sinners. In this case we “right wing Catholics” also have the Church and the US Bishops on our side.

As for Mel Gibson, I think his situation is sad, just like many of the failed marriages highlighted on this board. Mel Gibson, however, does not hold elective office and didn’t receive an honorary degree from ND. If you are looking for 100% moral consistency, you’ll never get it anywhere, even “left wing Catholics.” That certainly doesn’t justify bestowing honors on a man who publicly and overtly rejects what we believe as Catholics.

Abortion is serious stuff. Certainly more so than the antics of Mel Gibson. Putting them on the same moral plane is a bit off base.

 

[nycjtcrane]

Thanks MichaelTDoyle for the reply. It is your opinion as is mine. I am not here in this Forum to be instructed to seriously pray the Rosary, nor am I here to state that to anyone. You utilise the phrase …the debate is one of differences of opinion than that of ripping a child from his mother’s womb and throwing him in the garbage. For this I do not and will not speak like this. We are all human beings in this world and sinners as well. And we are able to debate. We are also here to show our love to our brothers and sisters in Christ here and to all around us. Again, I do not need to be told to pray the Rosary seriously. I do it for my own spiritual life. To you my brother in Christ, Godspeed.

 

[CoachSTL]

Thanks MichaelTDoyle for the reply. It is your opinion as is mine. I am not here in this Forum to be instructed to seriously pray the Rosary, nor am I here to state that to anyone. You utilise the phrase …the debate is one of differences of opinion than that of ripping a child from his mother’s womb and throwing him in the garbage. For this I do not and will not speak like this. We are all human beings in this world and sinners as well. And we are able to debate. We are also here to show our love to our brothers and sisters in Christ here and to all around us. Again, I do not need to be told to pray the Rosary seriously. I do it for my own spiritual life. To you my brother in Christ, Godspeed.

What is a right-wing Catholic?

 

[JReducation]

Wow! There are all kinds of ideas running around on this thread.

1. Fr. Jenkins can only be fired by the Board of Trustees. That is if he violates his contract. The Church has no authority within the university.
2. The Church can take the Catholic title from the university, but it cannot intervene in the internal affairs of a university that it does not own.
3. Notre Dame University is owned by the Board. Who can fire the board? The Holy Cross Brothers do not own the university. They surrendered ownership many years ago. They are employees of the university.
4. Abortion is the greatest evil that threatens human life. If one strips a human being of the right to be born, of what use are all the other human rights?
5. Who gave the state the right to decide who has the right to be born and who does not?
6. Who gave the parent the right to make that decision?

This is not a matter of imposing one idealogy over another. It is a matter of justice and protection of the first human right, the right to be born.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[tcm22]

Wow! There are all kinds of ideas running around on this thread.

1. Fr. Jenkins can only be fired by the Board of Trustees. That is if he violates his contract. The Church has no authority within the university.
2. The Church can take the Catholic title from the university, but it cannot intervene in the internal affairs of a university that it does not own.
3. Notre Dame University is owned by the Board. Who can fire the board? The Holy Cross Brothers do not own the university. They surrendered ownership many years ago. They are employees of the university.
4. Abortion is the greatest evil that threatens human life. If one strips a human being of the right to be born, of what use are all the other human rights?
5. Who gave the state the right to decide who has the right to be born and who does not?
6. Who gave the parent the right to make that decision?

This is not a matter of imposing one idealogy over another. It is a matter of justice and protection of the first human right, the right to be born.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Understand Fr Jenkins can only be fired by the Board. However, isn’t he also a member of the Holy Cross order? I assume he’s got superiors in the order that he is accountable to, right? They can’t fire him, but couldn’t they remove him or at least direct him to act according to Church teaching or the Bishops positions?

 

[Roy5]

TCM22 and other friends

Well, I hope we are friends.

 (1) **Courage defined.** It took a lotof courage for the president of US's best-known and most-revered Catholic university to defy all those Bishops, risk financial punishment from rich alumni and others, and invite President Obama. Whether one agrees with Fr. Jenkins or not, that took a lot of courage.

  (2)** Pro-abortion?** Honestly, I don't know anyone who is pro-abortion. When it occurs, it always involves great stress and often much sadness and regret. The main issues here include these: is abortion always a grave sin or are there circumstances when it may be the lesser evil? should it be criminalized and mean jail time? and if so, for whom? the doctor? the woman? There are those who justify it for what they consider adequate reasons, just as others justify bombing innocent civilians for what they consider adequate reasons. Certainly some of those civilians killed by such "shock and awe" bombs are pregnant.

 (3) **Obama in the ghetto**.We can say, of course, that Obama worked in the ghetto to develop a political base. If he really wanted to help himself politically, he should have at least changed his middle name. Did you read his first book? I read it and it was that book which made me marvel at him. For one thing, he is a powerful writer. Such idealism is so rare in our cynical world. I hope he can keep the spirit of hope now that he had inherited so many huge problems at home and overseas, including motormouths like Limbaugh (how many times was he married?) and Newt the new convert (also married several times - three I believe, commiting adultery while his first wife was sick in bed, dying!). 

 (4) **As for Obama's honorary degree,** consider: raised without a father; graduate of Columbia (I hold a master's degree from Columbia and it's no easy ride); editor of Harvard Law Review; author of best-sellers; state legislator; US Senator; ran a spectacular campaign for president and to my amazement made it! I never expected to see an African-American in the White House. I've always been a patriot, but it makes me especially proud to be an American and pledge with even more vigor to "one nation, under God. indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." He deserved that honorary degree. 

 (5) **I'm not an Obama enthusiast**. No, I have my fingers crossed and always remember him and our beloved nation in my prayers. I was a bit reluctant to see him run and even thought he should prepare himself over a longer period of time before he ran. But now that he is president, I want him to succeed, It will be a blessing for our country and the world. He is a brilliant man but no one is perfect. Criticism of him is healthy in our democracy, but so much of the criticism is wild. Like that of Limbaugh, Hannity, Ingraham, Savage, Beck, Morris, O'Reilly - and the list is long. In fact, their unfair and scurrilous attacks make me all the more pro-Obama at the moment. And I have been a Republican and would like to vote Republican. But the GOP has become so negative, and it worries me that its main base seems to have moved to the deep South where much progress has been made but where racism still remains quite strong.

 

[wanner47]

TCM22 and other friends

Well, I hope we are friends.

 (1) **Courage defined.** It took a lotof courage for the president of US's best-known and most-revered Catholic university to defy all those Bishops, risk financial punishment from rich alumni and others, and invite President Obama. Whether one agrees with Fr. Jenkins or not, that took a lot of courage.

By this logic, Judas must be one of your heroes. It takes a lot of courage to betray Christ!

(2)** Pro-abortion?** Honestly, I don’t know anyone who is pro-abortion.

Um, President Obama? He went on national TV and called babies punishments, and *encouraged *his daughters to get abortion should they ever be inclined to do so.

 (3) **Obama in the ghetto**.We can say, of course, that Obama worked in the ghetto to develop a political base. If he really wanted to help himself politically, he should have at least changed his middle name. Did you read his first book? I read it and it was that book which made me marvel at him. For one thing, he is a powerful writer. Such idealism is so rare in our cynical world. I hope he can keep the spirit of hope now that he had inherited so many huge problems at home and overseas, including motormouths like Limbaugh (how many times was he married?) and Newt the new convert (also married several times - three I believe, commiting adultery while his first wife was sick in bed, dying!).

Actually, Newt’s (now-ex) wife requested that he bring the divorce papers to the hospital room. But don’t let, you know, *facts *get in the way of your fantasy-land.

 (4) **As for Obama's honorary degree,** consider: raised without a father; graduate of Columbia (I hold a master's degree from Columbia and it's no easy ride); editor of Harvard Law Review; author of best-sellers; state legislator; US Senator; ran a spectacular campaign for president and to my amazement made it! I never expected to see an African-American in the White House. I've always been a patriot, but it makes me especially proud to be an American and pledge with even more vigor to "one nation, under God. indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." He deserved that honorary degree.

Cool, can I get an honorary degree just for being born and surviving to adulthood without a criminal record?

(5) I’m not an Obama enthusiast.

Sure you’re not. This post where you hailed him the conquering hero was just a figment of my imagination.

 

[mlz]

Right wing Catholics? Catholics are either dissident or they conform to Catholic teachings. This is a misnomer. No such thing as a left wing or right wing Catholic. You either adhere to Catholic teaching or you don’t. You are either Catholic or you’re not. Pope John Paul wrote an encyclical on guidelines for Catholic Colleges and Universities, that specified that dignitaries that opposed Catholic teaching should not be honored or given a platform. This was a scandal of huge magnitude as our current President is not just pro choice, he is rabidly pro abortion…and where’s the dialogue that the President has promised? Seems to me he just shot through several abortion policies without any dialogue whatsoever! And besides that he has just pulled money from the abstinence program and put it in a program with “alternative” means to birth control. I don’t see any hint of proposed “dialogue” that he is encouraging.

I agree!
mlz

 

[hosemonkey]

For those “Catholics” out there that believe that you can compromise with the slaughter of innocent pre-born children or support a President whose agenda promotes this atrocity, You need to leave the Church and align yourself with a “denomination” that will allow you to look at yourself in the mirror without cringing.

Is a “little bit” of murder OK? Is an “occasional” killing permitted? Is it OK if we just kill a few? Can we just kill the ones who are really inconvenient? And who decides?

Read carefully…You cannot be Catholic and pro-abortion. You cannot be Catholic and compromise with the murder of the innocent. You cannot be black and be a member of the Ku Klux Klan. You cannot be both a Jew and a Nazi. Do you see the connection?

To claim to be Catholic and pro-abortion, or agree with even the “occasional” need for procured abortion, is schizophrenic, similar to the poster on these forums who claims to be both Catholic AND mormon. Catholics, at least those who truly follow and believe the teachings of the Church that Our Lord Jesus Christ founded, make no compromise with this vile, evil thing.

 

[Roy5]

WANNER47

Too late to argue. Must get to bed.

 But as for Judas, I've always had some questions about him. To begin with, someone had to betray Christ to fulfill prophesy. It strikes me that God may have planned his betrayal and the guy had little choice. I believe that Coptic Christians have him as a saint because it was in part through him that salvation came to the rest of us. Moreover, the poor man was so penitent that he took his own life. I suspect that God may have had mercy on him as he certainly proved himself remorseful. There's more to say, but 'nuff for now.

 I praise God that He is filled with love and mercy. That's good for me, and I suspect for you as well. Otherwise, hm.... none of us would someday sing with all the saints in glory. I'm looking forward to it, but do hope I can keep on key by then.

 

[tcm22]

TCM22 and other friends

Well, I hope we are friends.

 (1) **Courage defined.** It took a lotof courage for the president of US's best-known and most-revered Catholic university to defy all those Bishops, risk financial punishment from rich alumni and others, and invite President Obama. Whether one agrees with Fr. Jenkins or not, that took a lot of courage.

Again, I fail to see the courage. He failed to uphold the morals, standards, and expectations of his Church. A Church where he is ordained and pledged his life to. He clearly put the interests of the university (not so Catholic anymore) above that of the Church’s principles.

(2)** Pro-abortion?** Honestly, I don’t know anyone who is pro-abortion. When it occurs, it always involves great stress and often much sadness and regret. The main issues here include these: is abortion always a grave sin or are there circumstances when it may be the lesser evil? should it be criminalized and mean jail time? and if so, for whom? the doctor? the woman? There are those who justify it for what they consider adequate reasons, just as others justify bombing innocent civilians for what they consider adequate reasons. Certainly some of those civilians killed by such “shock and awe” bombs are pregnant.

I think Obama’s rhetoric and legislative record demonstrate a person who has NEVER taken any sort of stand meant to prevent or reduce the number of abortions. The stress, saddness, and regret are all logical outcomes of a moral crime. Simlilarly, no one justifies intentionally bombing innocent civilians. That’s a strawman. There is no debate that abortion intentionally murders a child. By your logic, murder is just a matter of interpretation? Is murder of a toddler a lesser evil? Should it be criminalized and mean jail time? Consequences are for the legislative and judicial branches to determine. The immorality of abortion is clear. It CANNOT be justifies, it can only be rationalized.

(3) Obama in the ghetto.We can say, of course, that Obama worked in the ghetto to develop a political base. If he really wanted to help himself politically, he should have at least changed his middle name. Did you read his first book? I read it and it was that book which made me marvel at him. For one thing, he is a powerful writer. Such idealism is so rare in our cynical world. I hope he can keep the spirit of hope now that he had inherited so many huge problems at home and overseas, including motormouths like Limbaugh (how many times was he married?) and Newt the new convert (also married several times - three I believe, commiting adultery while his first wife was sick in bed, dying!).

He is a powerful writer and a compelling orater. Similarly, the failings of Limbaugh and Gingrich are well known. JFK was a well known adulterer, Ted Kennedy tried to cover up the death of a girl, and Barney Frank had a gay sex operation run out of his home. See, we can play left-right political gotcha forever. That is all irrelevant to the discussion.

Obama’s work in Chicago isn’t sufficient for a Catholic University to set aside principles and honor the man IN DIRECT CONFLICT WITH THE TEACHINGS OF US BISHOPS.

(4) As for Obama’s honorary degree, consider: raised without a father; graduate of Columbia (I hold a master’s degree from Columbia and it’s no easy ride); editor of Harvard Law Review; author of best-sellers; state legislator; US Senator; ran a spectacular campaign for president and to my amazement made it! I never expected to see an African-American in the White House. I’ve always been a patriot, but it makes me especially proud to be an American and pledge with even more vigor to “one nation, under God. indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” He deserved that honorary degree.

He is a very accomplished man. He would deny those same achievements to millions of unborn. What if his mother had aborted him?

(5) I’m not an Obama enthusiast. No, I have my fingers crossed and always remember him and our beloved nation in my prayers. I was a bit reluctant to see him run and even thought he should prepare himself over a longer period of time before he ran. But now that he is president, I want him to succeed, It will be a blessing for our country and the world. He is a brilliant man but no one is perfect. Criticism of him is healthy in our democracy, but so much of the criticism is wild. Like that of Limbaugh, Hannity, Ingraham, Savage, Beck, Morris, O’Reilly - and the list is long. In fact, their unfair and scurrilous attacks make me all the more pro-Obama at the moment. And I have been a Republican and would like to vote Republican. But the GOP has become so negative, and it worries me that its main base seems to have moved to the deep South where much progress has been made but where racism still remains quite strong.

Writing off any criticism of Obama as “right wing attacks” seems to be the approach taken by many, particularly in the media. “Limbaugh was a drug addict therefore anything he says about Obama is somehow tainted” seems to be the logic. All that is just fluff.

The fact is that Obama has an unmarred record as a supporter of any and all abortion legislation. I’m not here to denigrate Obama, there’s plenty of other places on the net to do that. What I’m here to do is discuss how a university that calls itself Catholic doesn’t recognize the fundamental scandal of bestowing honors on a man how stands in stark contrast to one of our Church’s fundamental beliefs. I understand where Obama comes from. What I don’t understand is how Fr Jenkins can call himself a Catholic Priest and take the actions that he did. I would like to see him held accountable for his publicly stated positions. He has damaged the Church and the reputation of his University.

Courage

 

[JReducation]

Understand Fr Jenkins can only be fired by the Board. However, isn’t he also a member of the Holy Cross order? I assume he’s got superiors in the order that he is accountable to, right? They can’t fire him, but couldn’t they remove him or at least direct him to act according to Church teaching or the Bishops positions?

Fr. Jenkins is a member of the Holy Cross Brothers. He has a provincial superior and a superior general. They do have authority over him. They cannot remove him from his post without a legal battle with the Board. There is a contract between the Board and the congregation.

They can order him not to accept the appointment again. His term is up next year. The Board appoints the president of the university. According to the contract, the president must be a member of the Brothers of the Holy Cross. But it does not have to be Fr. Jenkins.

The Brothers can order him to obey. This is the question that the Superior General publicly said that he was grappling with. He could order Fr. Jenkins to rescind the invitation. However, there was the issue of the Board. If the Board disapproved, the Superior General has no authority over the Board. Therefore, the Board could invite the President on their own initiative.

The conflict for the Superior General, which he said that he did not know exactly how to handle this, was whether it would serve any purpose ordering Fr. Jenkins to rescind an invitation that the Board could make over his head. This is why the Superior General took the time and made the effort to contact President Obama. The most viable solution seemed to be that President Obama would come down with a cold and bow out graciously. This way, no one could invite him.

There is also a Board of Governors. That board is over the Board of Trustees. The contract with the university states that the Board of Governors must be 50% Brothers of the Holy Cross and 50% secular men and women. To what extent the Board of Governors is involved in the decision to invite President Obama has never been said.

In fact, the Boared of Trustees has never come out and said that they supported or not the invitation. We can assume that they did, because the president of the university works for them. Graduations are planned by a graduation committee that answers to the President and to the Provost of a university.

My point is that there were others involved in this decision and they are hiding behind Fr. Jenkins. Fr. Jenkins has become the whipping boy while these other people are sleeping comfortably in anonymity. I can understand Fr. Jenkins trying to smooth this over with a nice speech and letter. He is probably trying to legitimize himself and protect those who give him marching orders at the university.

This begs the question, how fair is it to penalize Fr. Jenkins, without penalizing the Board of Trustees, the graduation committee and the university provost, all have a voice in this matter, yet none have publicly taken any responsibility. Who has the authorithy to penalize them?

If I were Fr. Jenkins, I would be very angry right now. You don’t hire someone of Fr. Jenkisn caliber to run your university and leave him out to hang on such an important issue. Therefore, I would probably offer my resignation. Even if it were rejected, it would be a sign to the rest that they are co-responsible for this decision and co-responsible for the crisis that this triggered.

The Bishops’ statement was not directed at an individual. It was directed at the Catholic community. These boards, both the trustees and the governors, even though they are not all religious, agreed to run the university according to the mission and vision of the founders. The founders were the Brothers of the Holy Cross. Obviously, this particular choice was incompatible with the vision and mission of the first brothers to start Notre Dame.

I know this from personal experience. I was a dean at a college within a large university. The contract was not between the university and I. It was between the university and my community. The university has a duty to the religious community who relinquished the authority and control to them. These obligations are written into the agreement when a university is relinquished to a lay corporation.

I believe we have to be careful not to make Fr. Jenkins the whipping boy for something that was done by a larger group. He is part of this group, but did not act unilaterally. If that had been the case, the Board would have said so by now, in their defense and the defense of their university.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[wanner47]

WANNER47

Too late to argue. Must get to bed.

 But as for Judas, I've always had some questions about him. To begin with, someone had to betray Christ to fulfill prophesy. It strikes me that God may have planned his betrayal and the guy had little choice. I believe that Coptic Christians have him as a saint because it was in part through him that salvation came to the rest of us. Moreover, the poor man was so penitent that he took his own life. I suspect that God may have had mercy on him as he certainly proved himself remorseful. There's more to say, but 'nuff for now.

So your argument is that it is a good thing to betray Christ?

Matthew 26:24 (New American Standard Bible)

“The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

And of course, your argument that Judas was predestined to betray Christ, and should be lauded for it, completely negates free will… but again, I suppose you don’t like letting facts get in the way of your preconceived notions.

I praise God that He is filled with love and mercy. That’s good for me, and I suspect for you as well. Otherwise, hm… none of us would someday sing with all the saints in glory. I’m looking forward to it, but do hope I can keep on key by then.

Yes, Fr. Jenkins and President Obama will indeed need mercy. They both need a lot of prayer as well.

 

[ChristinaM]

TCM22 and other friends

Well, I hope we are friends.

 (1) **Courage defined.** It took a lotof courage for the president of US's best-known and most-revered Catholic university to defy all those Bishops, risk financial punishment from rich alumni and others, and invite President Obama. Whether one agrees with Fr. Jenkins or not, that took a lot of courage.

Courage? I hardly think it takes courage to go with the flow and heap undeserved praise upon Obama, as the media and the rest of the nation have not hesitated to do. Sure, a vocal minority of Catholics and bishops are criticizing Jenkins, but most are lauding Jenkins and his hero Obama. When the world obviously loves what you are doing…where is the courage in that? The really courageous thing would have been for Jenkins to rescind his invitation once the bishops pointed out his error.

If you want courage, go look at the students who declined to attend the commencement and organized a peaceful, prayerful protest in support of the unborn and of the Catholic identity of Notre Dame. There’s real courage for you.

But the GOP has become so negative, and it worries me that its main base seems to have moved to the deep South where much progress has been made but where racism still remains quite strong.

Yes, because everyone who is from the South, is conservative, and criticizes Obama MUST be a racist. I find it hard to be civil when people accuse all Obama’s critics of being racist…so I will stop here in the name of charity.

 

[Roy5]

TCM22

I guess we'll just have to disagree. I admire Notre Dame for the way it has attracted so many presidents, and all but Kennedy were Protestants. That strikes me as the way any distinguished university should be. I recall when Catholics were forbidden to enter a Protestant Church, warned against the YMCA, and priests were not permitted to join clergy associations. There were some wonderful changes after Vatican II, but reading these postings has convinced me that there are many who still resist those changes. They still believe that outside the Church there is no salvation, still disrespect Protestantism, and still hold fast to a close-minded and often superstition version of Catholicism. Fortunately, there also are powerful forces within the Church, including millionjs of loyal mass-attending Catholics, who are wonderful Christians and have cast aside former prejudices against all faiths not their own. 

 But just so you're aware: I am not an admirer of the Kennedys generally, and while I voted for Jack in my youth he was indeed a notorous womanizer, the worst probably to ever occupy the White House. But I was even less admiring of Nixon. As for Barney Frank, I am not one of his fans by a long shot. He annoys me when I see him on TV, and I don't understand why such an overwhelmingly Catholic district of Massachusetts (Fall River, New Bedford, heavy Portuguese population) always relects him. Seems to say something about the sharp division within Catholicism not altogether unlike the modernist-fundamentalist split that plagues Protestantism.

  It's bedtime here. Keep healthy and happy. And God bless America and the whole world.

 

[tcm22]

The Brothers can order him to obey. This is the question that the Superior General publicly said that he was grappling with. He could order Fr. Jenkins to rescind the invitation. However, there was the issue of the Board. If the Board disapproved, the Superior General has no authority over the Board. Therefore, the Board could invite the President on their own initiative.

If Fr Jenkins had let the board invite him over his objection, that would have been courage. To be honest, I don’t have much problem with the invitation to speak. What I have a problem with is the bestowing of honors on the guy. I have no problem with divergent voices, but to fail to recognize when a moral chasm exists between those voices is the height of irresponsbilibty.

My point is that there were others involved in this decision and they are hiding behind Fr. Jenkins. Fr. Jenkins has become the whipping boy while these other people are sleeping comfortably in anonymity. I can understand Fr. Jenkins trying to smooth this over with a nice speech and letter. He is probably trying to legitimize himself and protect those who give him marching orders at the university.

This begs the question, how fair is it to penalize Fr. Jenkins, without penalizing the Board of Trustees, the graduation committee and the university provost, all have a voice in this matter, yet none have publicly taken any responsibility. Who has the authorithy to penalize them?

If I were Fr. Jenkins, I would be very angry right now. You don’t hire someone of Fr. Jenkisn caliber to run your university and leave him out to hang on such an important issue. Therefore, I would probably offer my resignation. Even if it were rejected, it would be a sign to the rest that they are co-responsible for this decision and co-responsible for the crisis that this triggered.

This is a theoretical arguement since Fr Jenkins didn’t take a stand against the honorary degree. He engaged in a bunch of rhetorical gymnastics trying to straddle an issue that can’t be straddled. The best that can be said of the man, IMO, is that he put the good of the University ahead of the principles of the Church. As an ordained Priest, we Catholics can expect better than that. He set a poor example of moral courage.

 

[JReducation]

Whether Fr. Jenkins can be fired or has to wait out his term is not as relevant as the fact that he made a mistake. Even if the Board wanted this invitation to go forward, Father should have tried to persuade them not to do so.

If he failed to persuade them, at least he could say so to the Bishops and to the community. He could say in honesty, that this was not his idea. Nonetheless, as the president of the university, he had the legal and moral obligation to represent the university at the graduation and would do his duty without compromising the teachings of the Church. Put this way, he woiuld have had some very angry people on the board, but he would have also had the support of the bishops and many Catholics. He would not have stood alone.

As the stituation is now, he’s alone. There are many students, faculty and other Catholics who do not support his decision and the Baord has not come to his defense. They have left him out to hang dry.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[tcm22]

TCM22

I guess we'll just have to disagree. I admire Notre Dame for the way it has attracted so many presidents, and all but Kennedy were Protestants. That strikes me as the way any distinguished university should be. I recall when Catholics were forbidden to enter a Protestant Church, warned against the YMCA, and priests were not permitted to join clergy associations. There were some wonderful changes after Vatican II, but reading these postings has convinced me that there are many who still resist those changes. They still believe that outside the Church there is no salvation, still disrespect Protestantism, and still hold fast to a close-minded and often superstition version of Catholicism. Fortunately, there also are powerful forces within the Church, including millionjs of loyal mass-attending Catholics, who are wonderful Christians and have cast aside former prejudices against all faiths not their own. 

 But just so you're aware: I am not an admirer of the Kennedys generally, and while I voted for Jack in my youth he was indeed a notorous womanizer, the worst probably to ever occupy the White House. But I was even less admiring of Nixon. As for Barney Frank, I am not one of his fans by a long shot. He annoys me when I see him on TV, and I don't understand why such an overwhelmingly Catholic district of Massachusetts (Fall River, New Bedford, heavy Portuguese population) always relects him. Seems to say something about the sharp division within Catholicism not altogether unlike the modernist-fundamentalist split that plagues Protestantism.

  It's bedtime here. Keep healthy and happy. And God bless America and the whole world.

I appreciate the thoughtful discussion, but I have one question that cuts to the heart of the matter for me.

Do you not see the fundamental conflict of bestowing an honorary legal degree on a man who’s legislative record on abortion is completely opposed to the principles of the organization that bestowed it?

 

[RobbyS]

TCM22

I guess we'll just have to disagree. I admire Notre Dame for the way it has attracted so many presidents, and all but Kennedy were Protestants. That strikes me as the way any distinguished university should be. I recall when Catholics were forbidden to enter a Protestant Church, warned against the YMCA, and priests were not permitted to join clergy associations. There were some wonderful changes after Vatican II, but reading these postings has convinced me that there are many who still resist those changes. They still believe that outside the Church there is no salvation, still disrespect Protestantism, and still hold fast to a close-minded and often superstition version of Catholicism. Fortunately, there also are powerful forces within the Church, including millionjs of loyal mass-attending Catholics, who are wonderful Christians and have cast aside former prejudices against all faiths not their own. 

 But just so you're aware: I am not an admirer of the Kennedys generally, and while I voted for Jack in my youth he was indeed a notorous womanizer, the worst probably to ever occupy the White House. But I was even less admiring of Nixon. As for Barney Frank, I am not one of his fans by a long shot. He annoys me when I see him on TV, and I don't understand why such an overwhelmingly Catholic district of Massachusetts (Fall River, New Bedford, heavy Portuguese population) always relects him. Seems to say something about the sharp division within Catholicism not altogether unlike the modernist-fundamentalist split that plagues Protestantism.

  It's bedtime here. Keep healthy and happy. And God bless America and the whole world.

The issue is abortion and the propriety of honoring a President with very radical views about the matter, views totally at odds with those of the Catholic Church.