Why can't homosexuals see that their behavior is an abomination?

[Petergee]

But we rarely do, do we? How often do you see this kind of language used about any sexual sin other than homosexuality? The only time you ever see it is on threads like this when people are trying to equivocate their feelings about homosexuality. The words get thrown out about homosexuals, and then somewhere around page 2 we get to someone (often the OP) who says “oh, and all those other sexual sins are bad too”.

Homosexuality is THE sin that everyone wants to rail against these days. My pastor’s theory is that it’s a sin that less than 10% of the population will ever struggle with, so it’s easy for them to condemn. People are always looking for someone to be a worse sinner than they are, it’s a human response that starts when we’re kids “but MOM, look what HE did!!!”. So, we continue to find a sin that we have no chance of ever committing and make it the worst sin ever, so that we look better by comparison. He did a whole homily on how we find other sins to point at so we don’t look at our own. You could have heard a pin drop in that church.

That’s all true, but on the other hand it is also true that although the Catholic Church and most other Christians condemn ALL sins and rarely say anything in particular about homosexual sins, AND also constantly emphasise that every human being is esentially good and that nothing that anyone does can ever stop God from loving him or take away our duty to love him, homosexual sodomy is the only sin about which it is commonly (and outrageously falsely) said that “You Catholics HATE gays and call them disgusting and an abomination and say that God hates them”.

You don’t hear anyone saying that the Catholic Church hates drunks and alcoholics because she condemns drunkenness, or saying that she hates heterosexual fornicators because she condemns fornication.

 

[Seeker1961]

That’s all true, but on the other hand it is also true that although the Catholic Church and most other Christians condemn ALL sins and rarely say anything in particular about homosexual sins, AND also constantly emphasise that every human being is esentially good and that nothing that anyone does can ever stop God from loving him or take away our duty to love him, homosexual sodomy is the only sin about which it is commonly (and outrageously falsely) said that “You Catholics HATE gays and call them disgusting and an abomination and say that God hates them”.

You don’t hear anyone saying that the Catholic Church hates drunks and alcoholics because she condemns drunkenness, or saying that she hates heterosexual fornicators because she condemns fornication.

I wouldn’t say that the churches “rarely say anything in particular about homosexual sins”. In fact, for the last few years there has been a LOT of talk about homosexuality-mostly because gay people want the right to have civil marriages.

I don’t think most people today have heard as much from the churches about other sexual sins which is why the conclusion gets drawn that the only sexual sin the church cares about is homosexuality. Honestly, when was the last time you heard a church leader talk about adultery or divorce?

 

[cmmillen]

The statistics, however, bolster the Chuch’s teachings:
-Greater percentage of divorce among couples who live together prior to marriage
-Lowest percentage of divorce among couples who wait until marriage to have sex
-Highest rate of breast cancer among women who have had abortions or have been on oral contraceptives for a prolonged time
-Lowest rate of breast cancer among women who have had multiple births, no abortions, no or very little oral contraceptives.

The more I read our Catechism, the more amazed I am at how it mirrors Reason and Natural Law…perhaps because God created Reason and Natural Law…mmmmmm.

If enough people say that a wrong thing is right, it becomes acceptable. But it is still wrong. Look at how long it took civilizations to condemn slavery.
We need to lead by example and love, and welcome all just as Jesus did.

Happy Feast of the Solemnity of Our Mother Mary to all !

 

[andrewstx]

I wouldn’t say that the churches “rarely say anything in particular about homosexual sins”. In fact, for the last few years there has been a LOT of talk about homosexuality-mostly because gay people want the right to have civil marriages.

I don’t think most people today have heard as much from the churches about other sexual sins which is why the conclusion gets drawn that the only sexual sin the church cares about is homosexuality. Honestly, when was the last time you heard a church leader talk about adultery or divorce?

I have never once heard the subject of homosexuality addressed from either a Catholic or Orthodox pulpit. Here a lot, but not at mass.

 

[Seeker1961]

I have never once heard the subject of homosexuality addressed from either a Catholic or Orthodox pulpit. Here a lot, but not at mass.

I don’t hear it a lot at Mass either, but I do read it a lot here, and I read it a lot in speeches given by religious leaders and political leaders who want to appeal to religious voters.

The media coverage given to those speeches by religious and political leaders who talk about homosexuality a lot leads to the impression people have about the churches “hating” homosexuals.

 

[daisybee]

First I’m going to offer up one of my favorite verses: Luke 18:9-14

Second as a celibate homosexual maybe I can find the right balance here. Homosexual acts are indeed condemned in both the Old and New Testaments. But I have to say threads like this are kind of hurtful to me because I struggle with celibacy and I don’t appreciate some of the language on here.

Sexual activity belongs in marriage between a man and a woman I affirm. But considering you all are sinners as well; read the verse and maybe be a little more nicer in the way you express yourselves. Use love not disgust. I didn’t become celibate because of people using language like yourselves. I became celibate because someone took the time to love me like Jesus would and didn’t use this kind of language.

Homosexual acts are indeed sinful. But this thread uses unloving approaches.

I agree with you, mitex. I don’t understand why homosexual activity is often viewed more negatively, criticized more harshly than other sin. All unchaste behavior could be described as an abomination.

When it’s singled out in a thread like this, and serves as an invitation for unkind laughter (although that may not have been the original intention), there’s a problem.

 

[Bella92]

I’m in the same situation as you and when I first came here I wanted these threads to stop too. Now, I’ve come to a different place. I would rather know what people really think than have them hide behind flowery language of “loving the sinner and hating the sin”.

This is one of the things that drove me away from the Church and religious people. I got sick and tired of the condemnation. Now I see these boards are just as obsessed as the Church and religious people in my life when I was growing up. I have an Aunt who is a nun. We no longer speak because she just couldn’t resist every opportunity to tell me how she loved me, but hated my lifestyle and loved reminding me what a disappointment I was to my very religious family. My life and the way I live it isn’t a seperate part of me I can open and close whenever I want to. It’s a part and parcel of who I am. So if you hate that, you hate me. There’s enough haters in the world, I don’t need to surround myself with them. So I no longer do.

 

[mitex]

I agree with you, mitex. I don’t understand why homosexual activity is often viewed more negatively, criticized more harshly than other sin. All unchaste behavior could be described as an abomination.

When it’s singled out in a thread like this, and serves as an invitation for unkind laughter (although that may not have been the original intention), there’s a problem.

Thank you haha. I don’t have a problem with someone saying homosexual acts are a sin. As a celibate homosexual I will be the first one to admit that. But I get hurt and upset when people don’t differentiate between me and sexually active ones (to be fair to the OP they wrote a very good response to me ). But I also wish people would take a stand against cohabitation, adultery, and other heterosexual sins (which make the majority of sexual sins homosexuals only make up 1% of the population according to Dr. Mark Yarhouse) as well and not just single out homosexuals.

 

[empantarhei]

We need to lead by example and love, and welcome all just as Jesus did.

:clapping:

 

[daisybee]

This is one of the things that drove me away from the Church and religious people. I got sick and tired of the condemnation. Now I see these boards are just as obsessed as the Church and religious people in my life when I was growing up. I have an Aunt who is a nun. We no longer speak because she just couldn’t resist every opportunity to tell me how she loved me, but hated my lifestyle and loved reminding me what a disappointment I was to my very religious family. My life and the way I live it isn’t a seperate part of me I can open and close whenever I want to. It’s a part and parcel of who I am. So if you hate that, you hate me. There’s enough haters in the world, I don’t need to surround myself with them. So I no longer do.

I’m sorry that was your experience. I am surprised that a nun would take “every opportunity” to tell you that you are a disappointment. That doesn’t sound at all like any nun, priest, or religious I know–at all. They undergo extensive training and formation to discuss difficult problems tactfully, and the general approach is to first help us understand how well we are loved by God–that’s pastoral counseling 101. I really can’t imagine anyone conducting pastoral counseling and telling the person being counseled that s/he is a disappointment. Maybe it came across in a manner that is difficult to take because she is a member of your family.

She is a nun you say? That’s strange, too, because nuns are often cloistered and their opportunities to interact with others, including family members, is often very limited. Many orders limit interactions with family members to very occasional visits, i.e., yearly, or even less frequently.

 

[empantarhei]

I’m sorry that was your experience. I am surprised that a nun would take “every opportunity” to tell you that you are a disappointment. That doesn’t sound at all like any nun, priest, or religious I know–at all. They undergo extensive training and formation to discuss difficult problems tactfully, and the general approach is to first help us understand how well we are loved by God–that’s pastoral counseling 101. I really can’t imagine anyone conducting pastoral counseling and telling the person being counseled that s/he is a disappointment. Maybe it came across in a manner that is difficult to take because she is a member of your family.

She is a nun you say? That’s strange, too, because nuns are often cloistered and their opportunities to interact with others, including family members, is often very limited. Many orders limit interactions with family members to very occasional visits, i.e., yearly, or even less frequently.

Really? I never knew; in fact, I thought the cloistered were diminishing. I have certainly met many a nun in the last few years. So many, it was difficult to remember their names.
Re: pastoral counseling 101; despite teaching, and despite the calling, being human first, couldn’t that mean that there will be some that are - I don’t know what word to use here - flawed? Many years ago, a fellow student stunned us all by becoming a nun; stunned in many ways but also because she tended to use racial slurs - a lot. It continued for a bit; hopefully not at all after taking her final vows.

 

[cmmillen]

Actually, statistics have shown that cloistered convents and traditional orders are on the rise in numbers. It is the liberal orders which are losing numbers. The orders in which the nuns wear habits are those which are on the increase in numbers.

 

[Bella92]

Maybe it came across in a manner that is difficult to take because she is a member of your family.

She’s my mother’s sister. She doesn’t come across as rude, she is rude. Maybe because she’s family she felt she could speak to me in a way that she would never speak to another, but to me, she’s just rude.

She is a nun you say?

She’s belongs to a teaching order. They own and run schools with convents attached. I use nun as shorthand. Always have. She might be a Sister but I think I remember some conversation in our house a long while ago that she took solemn vows and was technically a nun. I don’t know. I never liked her and was never that interested in what was going on with her.

 

[migueltojose]

Per Catholic Answers staff apologist Jim Blackburn:
The following New Testament passages deal with homosexual acts:

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. (Rom 1:26-27)

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1Cor 6:9-10)

[T]he law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, immoral persons, sodomites, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine. (1 Tm 1:9-10)

[J]ust as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 7)​

*Of course it also equally includes the immoral, idolators (money?) adulterers (yikes) murderers (abortists) thieves, the greedy (!!) drunkards (oh-oh), revilers (does that include sarcasm, the unkind variety that is so common) sodomites, kidnappers, liars and perjurers (most of the politicians).

Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone…*

 

[daisybee]

Really? I never knew; in fact, I thought the cloistered were diminishing.

No, at least not all of them are. The Visitation sisters at Tyringham, Mass, and Mother Angelica’s order are some examples that immediately come to mind–these are cloistered orders that are flourishing.

Re: pastoral counseling 101; despite teaching, and despite the calling, being human first, couldn’t that mean that there will be some that are - I don’t know what word to use here - flawed?

Yes, sure, no doubt about it. But I also know that we as humans do not like to be challenged. A few years ago a priest whom I admire very much challenged me on a point on which I needed correction. When he did that, I became unreasonably angry. And the strange thing was, I knew I was being unreasonable–but, I didn’t like the correction. I needed the correction, most definitely, but I didn’t like it. Further, he had corrected me with extreme gentleness and delicacy–but, I was still upset.

There was really nothing I could fault him for; he had been so very tactful–and so when I became angry, I noted a very minor point on his end on which to base my contention. Thankfully with much prayer and a great measure of grace I was able to move past the whole thing, and appreciate and accept the correction.

My point is that often, maybe safe to say “almost always,” correction is difficult to take. And I tend to become a bit skeptical when I hear about how horrible this priest or religious was when s/he challenged someone; not that it doesn’t happen, because I know it can, but it cannot be described as the norm. This is probably because I myself have experienced the tendency to vilify the messenger, and because I’ve met so very, very many priests and religious who are tactful, loving, well-trained, and adept in the delicate work of guiding souls.

 

[empantarhei]

Actually, statistics have shown that cloistered convents and traditional orders are on the rise in numbers.

I think this is a good thing!!

 

[empantarhei]

I’ve met so very, very many priests and religious who are tactful, loving, well-trained, and adept in the delicate work of guiding souls.

I don’t doubt that at all. So have I. Forgive me if I implied otherwise…

 

[Petergee]

This is one of the things that drove me away from the Church and religious people. I got sick and tired of the condemnation. Now I see these boards are just as obsessed as the Church and religious people in my life when I was growing up. I have an Aunt who is a nun. We no longer speak because she just couldn’t resist every opportunity to tell me how she loved me, but hated my lifestyle and loved reminding me what a disappointment I was to my very religious family.

Or was this her reaction because you couldn’t resist every opportunity to shove your “lifestyle” in her face and demand that she endorse it?

My life and the way I live it isn’t a seperate part of me I can open and close whenever I want to. It’s a part and parcel of who I am. So if you hate that, you hate me. There’s enough haters in the world, I don’t need to surround myself with them. So I no longer do.

From all the evidence I see, the Church and Catholics in general don’t “hate” anyone and are are far from “obsessed” with homosexual sodomy, in fact they generally do everything possible to avoid mentioning it unless absolutely forced to. But gay activists are certainly obsessed with constantly hating and condemning Catholics.

 

[Petergee]

Thank you haha. I don’t have a problem with someone saying homosexual acts are a sin. As a celibate homosexual I will be the first one to admit that. But I get hurt and upset when people don’t differentiate between me and sexually active ones (to be fair to the OP they wrote a very good response to me ). But I also wish people would take a stand against cohabitation, adultery, and other heterosexual sins (which make the majority of sexual sins homosexuals only make up 1% of the population according to Dr. Mark Yarhouse) as well and not just single out homosexuals.

I wish that too. But it is the Catholic Church and other practising religious people who are the only people who DO take a stand against cohabitation, adultery, and other heterosexual sins. It is general secular society and non-religious people who say that these sins are perfectly OK and only criticise homosexuals. So there is no justrifiication for the gay activists singling out Catholics/Christians for condemnation on these grounds.

 

[Bella92]

Or was this her reaction because you couldn’t resist every opportunity to shove your “lifestyle” in her face and demand that she endorse it?

She and I live in different parts of the country. I was never allowed to bring a girlfriend home, so when I was there, and she was there, I wasn’t shoving anything in her face. I never demanded she endorse anything. I never discussed anything with her. I never liked her, even as a child so I avoided being around her as much as I could. It was she that always initiated conversation, not me, and it was she that always brought up my sinful lifestyle, not me.

and Catholics in general don’t “hate” anyone and are are far from “obsessed” with homosexual sodomy, in fact they generally do everything possible to avoid mentioning it unless absolutely forced to.

Look at the number of threads started here about homosexuality and masturbation and fornication. Some people here are obsessed with it.

But gay activists are certainly obsessed with constantly hating and condemning Catholics.

My experience is different to yours. Not one of my friends condemn anyone, from any church. In fact, religion church and faith is hardly if ever discussed at all.