Why can't homosexuals see that their behavior is an abomination?

[howareyou1]

mitex… Congratulations for being celibate!.. I also dislike when somebody talks badly about homosexuals… What i oppose is homosexual marriage… As you said, we all are sinners.

However, i don’t agree with something that you said

“. But I also wish people would take a stand against cohabitation, adultery, and other heterosexual sins”

in this forum, “even” masturbation is attacked! i think any catholic opposes equally homosexual marriage or cohabitation or adultery or masturbation!

God bless you.

 

[Petergee]

She and I live in different parts of the country. I was never allowed to bring a girlfriend home, so when I was there, and she was there, I wasn’t shoving anything in her face. I never demanded she endorse anything. I never discussed anything with her. I never liked her, even as a child so I avoided being around her as much as I could. It was she that always initiated conversation, not me, and it was she that always brought up my sinful lifestyle, not me.

Well as I don’t know her I’ll take your word for it. I’m sorry that she was less than tactful to you, although from what you have told us, everything that she said to you was perfectly true. Perhaps you are not aware that Catholics believe that in charity towards others we have a very serious duty to help other people towards salvation, and this is particularly incumbent on us for our friends and family members especially those younger than us; this includes pointing out to them when they are gravely sinning if they seem to be unaware of or in denial of the fact. This must always of course done in the most loving possible way.

Perhaps your aunt thought that giving you a short sharp shock when you were young might shake you up enough to realise the terrible danger that you were putting your soul in. Loving someone doesn’t mean always automatically telling them that everything that they do is right and good.

By the way you may not have been aware that you were shoving your lifestyle in her face and demanding she endorse it by things that you said and did etc. We don’t notice these things when they become part of our everyday lifestyle. God knows there have been times when somebody has accused me of “shoving my religion down his throat” when I had no recollection of even mentioning anything to do with religion or even any recollection of doing or saying anything to even reveal what my religious beliefs are.

Look at the number of threads started here about homosexuality and masturbation and fornication.

Yes indeed. But you said earlier it was only homosexuality that Catholcis are supposedly “obsessed” with. There are a LOT more threads here about other sexual matters. Not surprisingly because

1. sexual temptations are almost universal and often very strong.
2. sexual matters have a great effect for good or bad on all those we come into contact with (and even with those we don’t)
3. sexuality is a major area where the laws and social pressures of secular society are often contradictory to the moral law and the Church’s treachings, and people want to discuss how they deal with the problems arising from that.
4. sexuality is a very intimate thing and a lot of people prefer to discuss sexual matters anonymously over the internet. CA is one of the few sites where this can be done calmly, intelligently and safely with people one can trust, without being interrupted by trolls, advertisers, etc.

Some people here are obsessed with it.

Have a look at the internet as a whole. Do you really think that Catholics are more obsessed with homosexuality or sexuality in general than society as a whole is obsessed with it?

My experience is different to yours. Not one of my friends condemn anyone, from any church. In fact, religion church and faith is hardly if ever discussed at all.

This is probably because casual hateful dismissal of Christians and Christianity as ignorant, bigoted etc has become such a commonplace that you don’t even notice it most of the time.

 

[Petergee]

She is a nun you say? That’s strange, too, because nuns are often cloistered and their opportunities to interact with others, including family members, is often very limited. Many orders limit interactions with family members to very occasional visits, i.e., yearly, or even less frequently.

She is probably a Religious Sister, which many people casually call a “nun”.

That would be equivalent to calling every lay Religious Brother “a monk”.

 

[Bella92]

Loving someone doesn’t mean always automatically telling them that everything that they do is right and good.

She didn’t, and still doesn’t, have the insight to realise giving her niece a short sharp shock when she already has a very difficult relationship with her, was more likely to have the opposite to the desired effect. I don’t expect her to agree with me, or my lifestyle. I expect her to have a little bit of manners though and not bring up and discuss things with me I don’t want to discuss with her. She seemed to think being my aunt gave her the right to force her opinion on me. Past tense because now I’m an adult, I can avoid her, and don’t talk to her.

Have a look at the internet as a whole. Do you really think that Catholics are more obsessed with homosexuality or sexuality in general than society as a whole is obsessed with it?

It does seem to be Catholics and fundamentalists who are most vocal about homosexuality.

This is probably because casual hateful dismissal of Christians and Christianity as ignorant, bigoted etc has become such a commonplace that you don’t even notice it most of the time.

Please take my word for it, none of my friends have a casual hatred of any group, including any religious group. They simply don’t care what any religious group has to say about anything really. They’re on the margins of their church. One of my friends was asked to be Godmother to a little girl a while ago. She accepted, and I along with a few others went to the service. It was lovely. I don’t know how it works that she’s a Godmother when she doesn’t go to church herself but I think that demonstrates none of us have any casual hatred to any church or religion.

 

[Petergee]

It does seem to be Catholics and fundamentalists who are most vocal about homosexuality.

OK, if you seriously want to argue about this: this may not be very scientific but it’s the best I can do. I Googled “homosexual”, “homosexuality” and “gay” and out of the first 100 pages that came up, only 9 of them were Christian sites (and some of these have a pro-sodomy view).

Seriously I along with nearly every Catholic I know would be quite happy to live my whole life without ever hearing or saying a word about homosexuality. But in the past few years we all get it shoved in our faces every day with the demand that we endorse, applaud and celebrate it, knowing that if we show any hesitation in doing so we will be branded “bigot” and other less printable names and face social ostracism, roadblocks on our careers or even dismissal from our jobs, etc. etc…

Please take my word for it, none of my friends have a casual hatred of any group, including any religious group. They simply don’t care what any religious group has to say about anything really. They’re on the margins of their church. One of my friends was asked to be Godmother to a little girl a while ago. She accepted, and I along with a few others went to the service. It was lovely. I don’t know how it works that she’s a Godmother when she doesn’t go to church herself but I think that demonstrates none of us have any casual hatred to any church or religion.

OK that may be true of you and your friends but it’s obviously not true of those who have appointed themselves the spokesmen for the gay movement who dominate our media and government bodies.

 

[someperson555]

why cant catholics like you see that you are pushing people away from the faith by being deliberately offensive. youre not impressing anyone. its so sad to see Christians who act like you. we gain people’s trust and win them over with love and kindnes, not with self righteous displays.

 

[Petergee]

why cant catholics like you see that you are pushing people away from the faith by being deliberately offensive. youre not impressing anyone. its so sad to see Christians who act like you. we gain people’s trust and win them over with love and kindnes, not with self righteous displays.

Are you addressing me or the OP, or someone else?

Please point out anything that any Catholic has said here which is “deliberately offensive”, “self righteous displays”, or lacking in love and kindness. It seems to me that it is your accusation which is lacking in love and kindness.

And I’m certainly not trying to impress anyone.

 

[Bella92]

Seriously I along with nearly every Catholic I know would be quite happy to live my whole life without ever hearing or saying a word about homosexuality.

Me too. I avoid the rabble rousers on both sides. I just like to quietly get on with living my life and having fun.

 

[someperson555]

Are you addressing me or the OP, or someone else?

Please point out anything that any Catholic has said here which is “deliberately offensive”, “self righteous displays”, or lacking in love and kindness. It seems to me that it is your accusation which is lacking in love and kindness.

And I’m certainly not trying to impress anyone.

oh please, dont pretend like you dont know what youre doing. you are just like michael voris and all the other demagogues out there. you know full well that calling homosexual behavoir an “abomination” is hurtful, and that you will invoke a negative reaction from them. you do it because you get a certain pleasure out of offending them. while its true that their behavoir is sinful, there are better ways of winning them over and converting them. most of the threads on homosexuality on here reek of self righteousness. if you really cared about them and really wanted to convert them, you would be more tactful. Jesus was always gentle when admonishing people as should we be.

 

[GraceSofia]

Jesus was always gentle when admonishing people as should we be.

You mean like when He said, “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?” (Matt. 23:33)

Or when He said, “Get thee behind me, Satan” to Peter?
Or when He said to the woman caught in adultery, “Go and sin no more”?
Or when He said, “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do”? (John 8:44).

 

[CaptFun]

You mean like when He said, “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?” (Matt. 23:33)

Or when He said, “Get thee behind me, Satan” to Peter?
Or when He said to the woman caught in adultery, “Go and sin no more”?
Or when He said, “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do”? (John 8:44).

This was in response to another post’s take that Jesus was always kind and gentle when He dealt with people.

GraceSofia rightly pointed out that Jesus sometimes gave dire warnings and in no uncertain terms.

Yet these things aren’t contradictory. Jesus certainly never departed from love when He said these things (God is love. And “God desires none to perish but to come to repentence” etc.). The loving thing to do (which contains kindness and gentleness ultimately) is sometimes to lay down the law firmly when that law is for the good of the person being warned – and not an excuse for pulling rank for its own sake or egotistically telling someone off publicly to take them down and raise yourself up.

Given His whole life on Earth, we can be sure that Jesus WANTED that “brood of vipers” TO escape the condemnation they were headed for … and for the adulteress to “sin no more” … and that those who’d listened to the devil (as their father) up 'til then would repent and listen to HIS Father.

In my own life I was once “rebuked with love” in that way.

A person who thought highly of me found a novel of a dubious nature lying on a table in my apartment (I lived alone at the time … the book was obviously mine).

The book was not OBVIOUSLY dirty … but cloaked in veil of respectability.

He opened it up, perhaps looking to see if it was something he might want to read himself since a person he thought so highly of had it as HIS reading material.

Whatever he saw when he opened it up disgusted him.

Embarrassed, I made a lame excuse in the direction of citing some redeeming quality in it, but when I was done … he looked at me disappointed and a little angry.

“It’s TRASH!” He said in a soft voice but firmly. Shut the book and spun it onto the coffee table with just enough velocity that it achieved the end of it and fell into a nearby little trash can!

I left it there.

His critique wordlessly conveyed a spirit of "How could a fine person like YOU be reading trash like THIS … it doesn’t belong in YOUR house … or are you really NOT the fine person you seemed to be (?).

I imagine Jesus’ rebukes to be like these (since we have no soundtrack for tones of voices in the Bible). Firm and certain - but calling one to better things always.

Relevant to THIS thread … my secret soft-porn thing was something I knew was wrong
(and something abominable, though I justified it as at least “involving no one else” - *another thing I was wrong about). * My behavior was abominable in a number of ways. but it took another person to convict/encourage me to change via guilt/inspiration.

The combination of the (awful) truth and the (glorious) truth given to me at the same time
and showing me what I HAD been and what I should have been and COULD BE is something not everybody gets. We all have our own sins - but what would YOU do
if you had a homosexual friend (especially one you just found out had the problem) who came to you with the information and asked for your advice?

Telling the truth in love; in the proper spirit; as a fellow sinner; who is struggling with different but similarly destructive temptations; is a tough thing to do … but a good ideal to have while getting there.

Someperson 555 and GraceSophia each made good points - that are not contradictory.
The Holy Spirit is both “gentle” and “meek in spirit” (as Jesus called Himself), yet is sometimes firm, clear and direct when giving warnings or telling a necessary truth. Not always doing both at the exact same time however.

It’s cool when He DOES though (as in my example above).

 

[catholic1seeks]

Homosexual behavior is a truly disgusting form of sexual abuse, but homosexuals can’t see it or experience it. Why? It must be the deception of Satan!

First of all, despite what others may have said, these are indeed harsh words. Any person who has the cross of same-sex attraction lives day-by-day with an immense struggle. A heavy emotional burden consists in the life of a gay Christian who tries to live a chaste life. To call such behavior as simply and matter-of-factly “disgusting” does no good, when the very behavior otherwise seems to be a source of fulfillment for search persons. Just think, you who have boyfriends or girlfriends or husbands or wives.

Sexual behavior is an expression of love; homosexual persons are drawn to express themselves in this way just like anyone else. Even the Church acknowledges that homosexual persons, with their partners, may have authentic feelings of love for them. The Church says homosexual activity is objectively sinful, yes. But you have to understand that not too few suffer with this condition! Gay people want to love other people too–to have relationships just as others do. This makes this sin very unique because there is something good there: namely, a desire to love. The Church sees it as disordered, of course, not ultimately corresponding to the design set up by God.

To say the “deception of Satan” is too simplistic, when we know the entire creation is imperfect and not in accord with God’s design. Theologically speaking, original sin brought about all weakness and sin. But even more, the physical world is imperfect: some people are born into the world with psychological or mental disorders, etc. Whatever the cause of homosexual orientation–whether it is environmental only or caused by biological factors as well, it is more complex than Satan.

Much harm is done to say Satan is behind a homosexual person, though surely demons can tempt anyone, as “the world, the flesh, and the devil” are behind sin.

 

[yellowbird]

First of all, despite what others may have said, these are indeed harsh words. Any person who has the cross of same-sex attraction lives day-by-day with an immense struggle. A heavy emotional burden consists in the life of a gay Christian who tries to live a chaste life. To call such behavior as simply and matter-of-factly “disgusting” does no good, when the very behavior otherwise seems to be a source of fulfillment for search persons. Just think, you who have boyfriends or girlfriends or husbands or wives.

Sexual behavior is an expression of love; homosexual persons are drawn to express themselves in this way just like anyone else. Even the Church acknowledges that homosexual persons, with their partners, may have authentic feelings of love for them. The Church says homosexual activity is objectively sinful, yes. But you have to understand that not too few suffer with this condition! Gay people want to love other people too–to have relationships just as others do. This makes this sin very unique because there is something good there: namely, a desire to love. The Church sees it as disordered, of course, not ultimately corresponding to the design set up by God.

To say the “deception of Satan” is too simplistic, when we know the entire creation is imperfect and not in accord with God’s design. Theologically speaking, original sin brought about all weakness and sin. But even more, the physical world is imperfect: some people are born into the world with psychological or mental disorders, etc. Whatever the cause of homosexual orientation–whether it is environmental only or caused by biological factors as well, it is more complex than Satan.

Much harm is done to say Satan is behind a homosexual person, though surely demons can tempt anyone, as “the world, the flesh, and the devil” are behind sin.

Thank you for this. You are a kind, voice of reason.

 

[empantarhei]

The Holy Spirit is both “gentle” and “meek in spirit” (as Jesus called Himself), yet is sometimes firm, clear and direct when giving warnings or telling a necessary truth. Not always doing both at the exact same time however.

Lovely and well-put.

 

[Robert_Sock]

From what I see as negative flack, it seems that people are at different points in their spiritual journey. It seems that my labeling homosexual behavior as an abomination, insulted some. I never meant to insult anyone, but merely wanted to convey my own feelings toward homosexual behavior. I believe it to be an abomination in the eyes of God. The reason I started this thread was to explore why there is such a disparity between those who condone homosexual behavior and those who do not, which I attribute to trance-like states of mind.

 

[mexolic]

1 Corinthians 6:9-10, “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God. Do not be deceived; neither fornicators…will inherit the kingdom of God”. Paul tells us not to be deceived and names which people of various sinful behavior that will not inherit the kingdom of God. Are people, especially Christians, being deceived by the lies of the enemy?

 

[catholic1seeks]

From what I see as negative flack, it seems that people are at different points in their spiritual journey. It seems that my labeling homosexual behavior as an abomination, insulted some. I never meant to insult anyone, but merely wanted to convey my own feelings toward homosexual behavior. I believe it to be an abomination in the eyes of God. The reason I started this thread was to explore why there is such a disparity between those who condone homosexual behavior and those who do not, which I attribute to trance-like states of mind.

As should be expected, especially today, and with the given topic, “abomination” is a loaded word. We should go about the topic as the Church recommends, by treating people who have same-sex attractions with love and compassion first.

I think there are many reasons why people accept homosexual behavior, just as there are many reasons people reject it. Some people reject the behavior for the Church’s reason: It is objectively wrong. But some, unfortunately, are scared and may have feelings of hatred towards homosexual persons. On the other side, people may accept homosexual activity through ignorance, out of what they think to be showing love towards people (I have a non-Catholic pastor in the family whose congregation teaches gay relationships are okay, for example). But some really do have their own agendas and may even have there backs turned against God.

We should not think of homosexual activity as being different from any other sin, in the sense that we should highlight it as some great abomination above all others. Nor should we say its source is different. All sin comes from Original Sin (that is, the weakness that comes from our fallen nature). The devil can tempt us as I said before. But from my own experience, being gay does not come from any “trance.”

I’m thankful you didn’t mean to offend. I’m glad that was cleared up. I think we all need to recall how fragile this topic is, especially once we consider it deals with real people.

 

[Petergee]

oh please, dont pretend like you dont know what youre doing. you are just like michael voris and all the other demagogues out there. you know full well that calling homosexual behavoir an “abomination” is hurtful, and that you will invoke a negative reaction from them. you do it because you get a certain pleasure out of offending them. while its true that their behavoir is sinful, there are better ways of winning them over and converting them. most of the threads on homosexuality on here reek of self righteousness. if you really cared about them and really wanted to convert them, you would be more tactful. Jesus was always gentle when admonishing people as should we be.

Wow. Try turning down the paranoia a notch or two.

The OP asked a serious question which few here have even attempted to answer. It would be impossible to ask the question without mentioning the fact that homosexual behaviour is an abomination (or some such similar word). Contrary to your accusation, I did not call it an abomination, much less try to hurt or offend anybody. As for your bizarre claim that I get pleasure out of hurting people, as I already mentioned I would get great pleasure out of not having to duiscuss this subject at all.

 

[Petergee]

Much harm is done to say Satan is behind a homosexual person

Nobody here has said that. In fact I don’t recall anyone on CAF ever saying that; if they did the moderators would promptly delete it.

What was said is that it must be Satan who deceives people so that they can’t see how evil, harmful, hateful, un-loving and hurtful their behaviour is. And leads them to think that it is actually an act of love.

 

[yellowbird]

1 Corinthians 6:9-10, “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God. Do not be deceived; neither fornicators…will inherit the kingdom of God”. Paul tells us not to be deceived and names which people of various sinful behavior that will not inherit the kingdom of God. Are people, especially Christians, being deceived by the lies of the enemy?

We’re ALL sinners in need of His grace. Don’t YOU be deceived into thinking you’ll stand before Him on your own merits. You’ll need His gracy & mercy - as will the homosexual, and everyone else.

“Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.”

My sin. Your sin. The homosexual’s sin.