J
- Status
B
Bluegoat
Guest
There is no doubt that good preaching, or public speaking of any kind, requires real effort. Practice, first of all, and some study of public speaking by reading great speeches and considering why they are effective.
There are lots of collections of great sermons and homilies that could be helpful in that area.
There are lots of collections of great sermons and homilies that could be helpful in that area.
N
Newbie2
Guest
You need to lighten up a bit. I understand if others have offended you, but my point is that perhaps there is a better way of addressing it than asking what sort of “idiot” others might think you to be.
That’s all, nothing less, nothing more.
J
JustaServant
Guest
So much of it is also regional and depends on the ‘tastes’ of the listeners.
In the Southern US (where I am just barely) they like the ‘screamin’ and the hollerin’’, IOW, performing. If they tried that in a church up North, they would be thrown out on their ear. In many African American churches, the preaching can get very exited. On the other hand, I have been in a few mainline Protestant churches in which the speaker simply taught out of the Word in a very calm fashion.
I have heard many of what would be called a ‘boring sermon’, that had a powerful message. And I have heard a few ‘screamers’ in my time who had nothing to scream about.
It’s the message that is important, not the ‘style’ of how it is conveyed.
S
sambfive
Guest
I absolutely agree with you. There are many out there that have a love for the Lord, even though they may not be all together good preachers. --So glad to have shared some thoughts together. And yes, one day my hope is to see you and your Grandfather and my Uncle Johnny and so many others that gave their all to Jesus. Whether they be Catholic, Baptist, Methodist and so forth!!! What a day, glorious day that will be! (Remember that song from your Baptist days?)
Take Care!
J
JustaServant
Guest
If a Catholic obeys the law of the Church he is part of that ‘group’. But that ‘group’ doesn’t blow thier horn and announce what they are doing.Hi everybody,
Why can’t Priest preach … like the Prostestant pastors? Because the Roman Catholics have the complete truth and the “separated brethren” don’t. Each group has an aspect of Christianity that they highlight and excel at, preaching may be the prostestant’s forte while theology is the RC’s. **I wonder which group practices true Christian living???**Enjoy you day in the Lord.
C
Contarini
Guest
Why do you assume that the Catholic training is superior, just because there are more years of formal training?
Protestant pastors typically have 3-4 years of seminary, but it’s true that many don’t go to seminary. However, those who don’t (and those who do as well, for that matter) learn their craft through apprenticeship, which is probably a more effective way to learn something like preaching. It seems to me (never having had one myself) that homiletics classes inculcate a lot of formal rules that don’t do much to make someone a good preacher. I don’t mean that they can’t help, but that by themselves I don’t think they do much. I think that the cultivation of good models probably has a lot more to do with it. (Granted, that’s what self-taught folks typically say, and those who have been through the formal discipline of the guild always want to disagree. Tell me that getting a Ph.D. doesn’t make you a better church historian, and I’ll bristle
)But Catholic preaching is so abysmally bad that I think the homiletics classes in Catholic seminaries must actually be contributing somehow. I can’t imagine such a large number of people all preaching so badly by sheer natural talent. They must be getting some help somewhere.
Edwin
C
Contarini
Guest
I believe that priests are forbidden to recite the Liturgy from memory, because memory can deceive you and you can wind up saying it wrong for years and years. Admittedly, I heard this from an Episcopal priest, but he was an Anglo-Catholic and I’d be very surprised if what he said didn’t reflect Catholic usage.
Edwin
C
Church_Militant
Guest
I don’t know what priests you have been seeing, but all the priests I know have been excellent in their homiletics and have always left me with plenty to think about.
Frankly, after over 30 years of n-C preaching, it’s actually refreshing to be way from the same old same old of the other communities. I want something that challenges me on many levels, not a pulpit pounding shout fest of misinterpretation and scripture.
In over 30 years I didn’t see very many Protestant guys who were very good preachers and none affected me the way Catholic priests have since coming home.
Frankly, after over 30 years of n-C preaching, it’s actually refreshing to be way from the same old same old of the other communities. I want something that challenges me on many levels, not a pulpit pounding shout fest of misinterpretation and scripture.
In over 30 years I didn’t see very many Protestant guys who were very good preachers and none affected me the way Catholic priests have since coming home.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Good points.I don’t know what priests you have been seeing, but all the priests I know have been excellent in their homiletics and have always left me with plenty to think about.
Frankly, after over 30 years of n-C preaching, it’s actually refreshing to be way from the same old same old of the other communities. I want something that challenges me on many levels, not a pulpit pounding shout fest of misinterpretation and scripture.
In over 30 years I didn’t see very many Protestant guys who were very good preachers and none affected me the way Catholic priests have since coming home.
As a former “preacher” (ohhh how I learned to hate that word…
), I’ve heard many over the years. It’s the message that is central, not necessarily how it is transmitted. As I said in an earlier post, no denomination has a corner on ‘boring’ or ‘exciting’. A person’s ‘ablility’ does not affect the truth (or the heresy) of the message.Here’s something to keep in mind also. We live in the age of short attention spans. Before our age people had no problem paying attention to public speakers. Some Puritan preachers would literally preach for hours. The average sermon in a Protestant church today is about 1/2 hour, and even THAT is too long for some. The average Homily in a Catholic church would be about 15 minutes-20 minutes. So the Priest has to get to his point with as few words as possible, because people tend not to pay attention to what you are saying after a certain point.
R
RBK
Guest
According to the Catechism, preaching the Gospel is only a part of a priest or (Catholic) pastor’s primary responsibility. Note where the Catechism says “above all.”
1552 The ministerial priesthood has the task not only of representing Christ - Head of the Church - before the assembly of the faithful, but also of acting in the name of the whole Church when presenting to God the prayer of the Church, and above all when offering the Eucharistic sacrifice.
1564 …they are consecrated in order to preach the Gospel and shepherd the faithful as well as to celebrate divine worship as true priests of the New Testament.
1566 It is in the Eucharistic cult or in the Eucharistic assembly of the faithful that they exercise in a supreme degree their sacred office; there, acting in the person of Christ and proclaiming his mystery, they unite the votive offerings of the faithful to the sacrifice of Christ their head, and **in the sacrifice of the Mass they make present again and apply, until the coming of the Lord, the unique sacrifice of the New Testament, that namely of Christ offering himself once for all a spotless victim to the Father. From this unique sacrifice their whole priestly ministry draws its strength.
**
Catholic Priests/Pastors are not always great homilists, but they, through the Sacrament of Holy Orders bring us Christ in the Eucharist and absolution in the Confessional, protestant preachers cannot. I’m a recent convert from a mega non-denominational church. And let me tell you it’s often “preacher centered” to the point that if the lead pastor isn’t preaching, many either complain or don’t show up. Where I live now, one of the largest mainline denominational churches in the country recently lost their pastor…to the Catholic Church. He’s an incredibly gifted speaker and is using his talents to the glory of God in Christ’s Church now. However, his former church is literally imploding because they haven’t been able to find a pastor who is as dynamic as he is. It was all built on a man…
There is definitely room for improvement in Catholic homilies. And from what I have observed, the John Paul II generation of priests are leading the way. They’re orthodox and unafraid to say what needs to be said, at least here in my area of the country. My question to you is, are you praying and offering sacrifices for priests…or are you just complaining?
A
angelic06
Guest
From a psychological point of view, people tend to remember the first and the last thing that they heard. (Now, notice I said “tend”—I know that there are plenty of exceptions.) If you want people to forget everything you said, give them a lengthy message…an almost guarantor that they may not remember much of anything you said. I can’t even remember every good homily that I’ve heard, but I do remember the “gist”, if you will, of many, enough to feed me the important spritual truths:
one by a visiting priest a year or so ago about how many Catholics do not believe in the real presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist due to some of the innovations in the liturgy (he mentioned explicitly CITH), one many years ago by our pastor saying that doing the works as required by St. James is real religion, one about a year or so ago by our pastor noting that many Christians have lost belief in miracles, and that they take the story of the loaves and fish as a miracle only in the sense that the true miracle was that “Jesus got them to share” or such nonsense, one by one of our deacons emphasizing the need to have a clean conscience before coming to Holy Communion, as great is the benefit, so also is the danger…I could go on and on.
So, then, do you really need these one hour length sermons in order to get your message across? What are you interested, being fed with truth or being entertained by the cleric’s speaking ability?
(Now, from time to time, when I have access to a television, I like to listen to Pastor Hagee and his messages on the end of times…so, even as a Catholic I’ll have my times to listen to “great preachers”. However, I do not anticipate attending Protestant services live, so I do not care if the sermons in Catholic churches are like that of Protestants—the most important one, Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox or whatever else is out there, is the one that leads us to straighten us up into godly living for the glory of God as well as for the salvation of souls, which is the fulfillment of the law.)
Now, in closing, I agree with what RBK said, that there is plenty of room to improve in Catholic homilies, but these should be improved for the people’s sake and so that the message is imparted to the people with clarity…not so that our clerics can compete with Protestants for who has the best speaking ability award.
one by a visiting priest a year or so ago about how many Catholics do not believe in the real presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist due to some of the innovations in the liturgy (he mentioned explicitly CITH), one many years ago by our pastor saying that doing the works as required by St. James is real religion, one about a year or so ago by our pastor noting that many Christians have lost belief in miracles, and that they take the story of the loaves and fish as a miracle only in the sense that the true miracle was that “Jesus got them to share” or such nonsense, one by one of our deacons emphasizing the need to have a clean conscience before coming to Holy Communion, as great is the benefit, so also is the danger…I could go on and on.
So, then, do you really need these one hour length sermons in order to get your message across? What are you interested, being fed with truth or being entertained by the cleric’s speaking ability?
(Now, from time to time, when I have access to a television, I like to listen to Pastor Hagee and his messages on the end of times…so, even as a Catholic I’ll have my times to listen to “great preachers”. However, I do not anticipate attending Protestant services live, so I do not care if the sermons in Catholic churches are like that of Protestants—the most important one, Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox or whatever else is out there, is the one that leads us to straighten us up into godly living for the glory of God as well as for the salvation of souls, which is the fulfillment of the law.)
Now, in closing, I agree with what RBK said, that there is plenty of room to improve in Catholic homilies, but these should be improved for the people’s sake and so that the message is imparted to the people with clarity…not so that our clerics can compete with Protestants for who has the best speaking ability award.
B
brb3
Guest
Not true. Scripture trumps the Catechism.
Their primary commission was given them by the Head of the Church, in the GREAT COMMISSION. [Matt. 28:18-20 "And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. GO therefore AND MAKE disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”]
True, ----- much room for improvement … so says Father Corapi.
J
jegow
Guest
One thought is that protestant ministers have more time during the week to prepare sermons because they are not doing the other things that the priest does - one of the main ones would be offering the sacraments on a regular basis or heading out for Last Rights at night or other hours and more.
Sure they may be somewhat busy but probably not as busy as the average priest. Either way, our lives are different.
Sure they may be somewhat busy but probably not as busy as the average priest. Either way, our lives are different.
R
RBK
Guest
This is what Fr. Corapi says, per his website:
About Father Corapi
Biography
Father is a perpetually professed priest member of the Society of Our Lady of the Most Holy Trinity.
The pillars of father’s preaching are basically three:
• Love for and a relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary which leads us into a vibrant and loving relationship with Jesus Christ.
• Great love and reverence for the Most Holy Eucharist–from Holy Mass to adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.
• **An uncompromising love for and obedience to the Holy Father and the teaching of the Magisterium of the Church.
**
fathercorapi.com/About-Father-Corapi-W4C25.aspx
So again, from the CCC, which Fr. Corapi has taught extensively:
The Magisterium of the Church
85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.
86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48
87 Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”,49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.
This is what the Magisterium has given us:
1552 The ministerial priesthood has the task not only of representing Christ - Head of the Church - before the assembly of the faithful, but also of acting in the name of the whole Church when presenting to God the prayer of the Church, and above all when offering the Eucharistic sacrifice.
1564 …they are consecrated in order to preach the Gospel and shepherd the faithful as well as to celebrate divine worship as true priests of the New Testament.
1566 It is in the Eucharistic cult or in the Eucharistic assembly of the faithful that they exercise in a supreme degree their sacred office; there, acting in the person of Christ and proclaiming his mystery, they unite the votive offerings of the faithful to the sacrifice of Christ their head, and in the sacrifice of the Mass they make present again and apply, until the coming of the Lord, the unique sacrifice of the New Testament, that namely of Christ offering himself once for all a spotless victim to the Father. From this unique sacrifice their whole priestly ministry draws its strength.
Fr. Corapi would disagree with you, vehemently. Yes, he and others would like better homilies, but the teaching office of the Church alone is entrusted with interpreting Scripture, not you or I. And that teaching office has said that preaching is only a part of a priest’s ministry.
R
RBK
Guest
BTW, Fr. Corapi is on EWTN right now on Doug Keck’s show. I am a huge fan. I would love to see him when he comes to Cincinnati this summer.
N
nsper7
Guest
To address the OP’s question, a few things pop out:
- The ‘message’ of Evangelical/Fundamentalist Protestantism (where one often sees the fiery preachers) is very simple compared to the Catholic ‘message’ and thus lends itself to fiery rhetoric and the like
- Since Catholic Priests are highly-educated (remember, at least two years of undergraduate philosophy plus four years of theology to get an MDiv), it just lends itself to a more academic form of preaching. Remember that fiery rhetoric and getting extremely emotional are usually considered the tactics of a demagogue, not an academic.
- Priests are limited by the Lectionary as to what they can preach on. Certainly, there is a lot a Priest could pick from (i.e. OT, Epistle or Gospel reading), but it is not like an E/P preacher who can just randomly decide that preaching on such-and-such topic which just happens to be their pet thing. Also, Priests are limited by the teachings of the Church whereas an E/P preacher can just spout off on whatever they want. Priests are also limited by the liturgy (he cannot just decide to go on a tirade at the beginning of Mass or hit a whammy right at the end).
- It sometimes seems like E/P preachers-to-be are recruited based on their oratory skills. Since there is much less formal requirements, it can often seem like a person starts off maybe street preaching or being vociferous in a small group and its like they get groomed if they are able to preach on. In the Catholic Church, it seems like public speaking skills are not really used to ‘vet’ future Priests.
J
JustaServant
Guest
- You’ve yet to provide a quote from Father Corapi.
- Saying “Scripture trumps the Catechism” sounds to my ears like “Sola Scriptura”, is that what you believe now?
- St. Augustine said:
Are you saying preaching is more important than the Eucharist?
R
RBK
Guest
I came across an interview that Fr. Corapi did with Zenit back in 2006. He says the following:
"This document (Humani Generis) concerns the restoration of the priesthood and the preparation of good preachers of the Gospel. One cannot properly approach a Year of the Eucharist without considering the ministerial priesthood. **Quite simply: no priest, no Eucharist. Jesus instituted the two sacraments together and they are indissolubly linked.
**
I believe that the proper education and holiness of priests is of paramount importance to the new Holy Father. This is, of course, very much wrapped up in his already-known interest in a “Reform of the reform” of the sacred liturgy. Not a return to the days before the Council, but a proper and authentic interpretation and praxis of what the Second Vatican Council truly said.
That, I believe, is one of the primary focuses of the new Pope’s vision for the Church: holy and well prepared priests and a reverence and love for Jesus Christ in the holy Eucharist.
This will automatically result in a tremendous interest and love for adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Benedict XV wanted properly educated preachers – in authentic doctrine – and, most of all, holy preachers. You can’t give what you don’t have, and Jesus Christ is all we have to give."
Source: zenit.org/article-13463?l=english
Which is exactly what the CCC says:
1552 The ministerial priesthood has the task not only of representing Christ - Head of the Church - before the assembly of the faithful, but also of acting in the name of the whole Church when presenting to God the prayer of the Church, and above all when offering the Eucharistic sacrifice.
1564 …they are consecrated in order to preach the Gospel **and **shepherd the faithful as well as to celebrate divine worship as true priests of the New Testament.
No priests…no Eucharist. Devotion to Our Lord in the Eucharist leads to holiness, add to that a solid education in “authentic doctrine,” and then we should start reaping the benefits of Pope Benedict XVI’s vision…and Fr. Corapi’s as well.
Peace in Christ…
"This document (Humani Generis) concerns the restoration of the priesthood and the preparation of good preachers of the Gospel. One cannot properly approach a Year of the Eucharist without considering the ministerial priesthood. **Quite simply: no priest, no Eucharist. Jesus instituted the two sacraments together and they are indissolubly linked.
**
I believe that the proper education and holiness of priests is of paramount importance to the new Holy Father. This is, of course, very much wrapped up in his already-known interest in a “Reform of the reform” of the sacred liturgy. Not a return to the days before the Council, but a proper and authentic interpretation and praxis of what the Second Vatican Council truly said.
That, I believe, is one of the primary focuses of the new Pope’s vision for the Church: holy and well prepared priests and a reverence and love for Jesus Christ in the holy Eucharist.
This will automatically result in a tremendous interest and love for adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Benedict XV wanted properly educated preachers – in authentic doctrine – and, most of all, holy preachers. You can’t give what you don’t have, and Jesus Christ is all we have to give."
Source: zenit.org/article-13463?l=english
Which is exactly what the CCC says:
1552 The ministerial priesthood has the task not only of representing Christ - Head of the Church - before the assembly of the faithful, but also of acting in the name of the whole Church when presenting to God the prayer of the Church, and above all when offering the Eucharistic sacrifice.
1564 …they are consecrated in order to preach the Gospel **and **shepherd the faithful as well as to celebrate divine worship as true priests of the New Testament.
No priests…no Eucharist. Devotion to Our Lord in the Eucharist leads to holiness, add to that a solid education in “authentic doctrine,” and then we should start reaping the benefits of Pope Benedict XVI’s vision…and Fr. Corapi’s as well.
Peace in Christ…
S
sambfive
Guest
Amen, Amen, Amen, And AMEN!!!I don’t know what priests you have been seeing, but all the priests I know have been excellent in their homiletics and have always left me with plenty to think about.
Frankly, after over 30 years of n-C preaching, it’s actually refreshing to be way from the same old same old of the other communities. I want something that challenges me on many levels, not a pulpit pounding shout fest of misinterpretation and scripture.
In over 30 years I didn’t see very many Protestant guys who were very good preachers and none affected me the way Catholic priests have since coming home.
From another returning Catholic that absolutely completely agrees with you!!! Oh, and did I say Amen??? I love my Pastor’s homilies! No drama fest; please.- Status