Why communion rails matter

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Windmill said:
*Infinite *value? Not to belabor the point, but what part of the Bible tells us that?

I know we can infer that Christ dying on the Cross to atone for the sins of Man is an act of infinite love, but that is because of the infinity of God himself, not because of our value. His heart is overflowing with love, but we are not infinitely valuable. He is the only infinite in the equation of love here. We totally don’t deserve the redemption he offers us. That is why it is gratuitous. It is totally undeserved. If we were of infinite value and dignity, one could infer that we do deserve Christ’s redemptive act.

The end goal in my exchange with you is to affirm the dogma of Original Sin and our humility before an all-loving, almighty God who, through no merit of our own, came down to Earth and died for us. **That act of utter humility (the Incarnation) demands a respect. ** At the altar rail, your external posture informs and guides your intellect to adopt a humble stance before Our Lord in the simply Host before us. It doesn’t guarantee it, but it should lead your mind to humble thoughts.
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Scripture is clear that God wishes us to share eternal life with him, to partake in that life. That’s the whole point of the cross. Christ shares in our humanity that we might share in eternal life.
Do you believe that God is infinite? And that he wishes to share that life with us? Scripture tells us we are bought at a great price. What value would you put on that price exactly?
Blessed John Paul II said this in his encyclical letter, The Gospel of Life, n. 25.
“The blood of Christ, while it reveals the grandeur of the Father’s love…shows howprecious man is in God’s eyes and how priceless the value of his life. Christ’s blood reveals to man that his greatness, and therefore his vocation, consists in the sincere gift of self.”
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St. Peter
“Realize that you were delivered…by Christ’s blood beyond all price: the blood of a spotless, unblemished lamb.” (1 Pt. 1:18a,19a)
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Again, I did not read Tim to say he believes we are the source of our own infinite value, which it seems is how you are interpreting what was said. This issue is about who we are in God’s eyes, not about who we are of our own efforts. Communion rails are not of the essence this holiness.
 
If a parish that used to have altar rails and removed them in the 60s wants to reinstall them–can they do that with only the parish’s pastor’s OK or do they have to have the OK of the diocesan bishop?
 
When we talk of the infinite merit of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, that is because Adam and Eve sinned against an infinitely holy God. The resulting rupture of communal life with God was insurmountable by any human effort. Why? Because we are finite creatures and are incapable of any infinite merit. The only way God could re establish communion with mankind was to assume human nature himself, yet retain his divinity, and make an infinitely-meritorious sacrifice to atone for man’s fallen nature. By doing this, he has made it possible for men to be with him in heaven. It was the greatest act of love in history, and it was a painful act of love. The incarnation, itself, was an act of unbelievable humility. God becoming man is a concept that we still can’t fully grasp. It’s less of a leap for Man to become an ant than God to become Man, but Christ did that. Amazing!

To further the humility, Christ assumes the form of a mere Host of Bread. Not even the form of a man, but FOOD! Why? So we can commune with him more closely in this life. How ungrateful are we, and how blind to this beautiful act of love!

So when I see an altar rail, it makes perfect sense. The only reasonable response to the Creator of the Universe humbling himself so lowly out of pure love just to commune with me, a sinner…how can I refuse to kneel before my Blessed Lord who gave so much for me, yet who I have sinned against, and yet been forgiven?

It just seems like pride to look at a communion rail and say, “I am too dignified for that.”

Again, what harm can be done by reinstating this centuries-old practice that made sense to generations of saints before us? It’s proper catechetics, it can lead people to holy contemplation. It is easy to say that piety is not holiness, but impiety definitely is not holiness. It is a springboard to true holiness, and to those who are living the holy life, it makes perfect sense.
 
After re-reading Tim’s original foray into this thread, I know that I am arguing a minor point. His post is pretty solid.

I would just say that we should err on the side of humility in the Real Presence of Our Lord. There is plenty of time to stand erect knowing that you are a son of God out in the world. In church, at Communion time, that is the one moment where kneeling makes sense.

Look at what St. John did in the Bible. In Revelation 1:17, John has just turned to see Jesus before him, and his natural response is to fall at Christ’s feet “as though dead”. If holy St. John who reclined at the breast of Jesus during the Last supper, who was also dubbed “the beloved disciple” responds this way in the presence of our Lord, should our response be any less?
 
I don’t feel any loss of my “human dignity” when I kneel in the presence of the Lord. If anything, I feel my dignity is increased.
 
Lex orendi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
How we pray is how we believe is how we live.

Listening to guy on the radio and he said, imagine if we knelt and recieved a movie ticket in our our teeth. Seems like a ridiculous thing to do but if everyone did it long enough for years and years, eventually some people are going to start saying,“hey, there must be something special in that ticket”. Now flip it around, we stand up and receive what we proclaim to the world to be the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord in the hand and then grab the host and place it in our own mouth, people will eventually say " hm, it must not be that big a deal".

There was another talk I heard where a priest said something like “bend the body and the will will follow”. If someone knows the actual quote please help out here.
 
govav8er said:
Lex orendi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
How we pray is how we believe is how we live.

Listening to guy on the radio and he said, imagine if we knelt and recieved a movie ticket in our our teeth. Seems like a ridiculous thing to do but if everyone did it long enough for years and years, eventually some people are going to start saying,“hey, there must be something special in that ticket”. Now flip it around, we stand up and receive what we proclaim to the world to be the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord in the hand and then grab the host and place it in our own mouth, people will eventually say " hm, it must not be that big a deal".

There was another talk I heard where a priest said something like “bend the body and the will will follow”. If someone knows the actual quote please help out here.
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If everyone did it for years and years, some are going to start???

So we put in rails in all of the churches, and hope, years and years, down the road, some hearts might change??

Sorry, that doesn’t sound very effective to me. 🤷
 
Windmill said:
After re-reading Tim’s original foray into this thread, I know that I am arguing a minor point. His post is pretty solid.

I would just say that we should err on the side of humility in the Real Presence of Our Lord. There is plenty of time to stand erect knowing that you are a son of God out in the world. In church, at Communion time, that is the one moment where kneeling makes sense.

Look at what St. John did in the Bible. In Revelation 1:17, John has just turned to see Jesus before him, and his natural response is to fall at Christ’s feet “as though dead”. If holy St. John who reclined at the breast of Jesus during the Last supper, who was also dubbed “the beloved disciple” responds this way in the presence of our Lord, should our response be any less?
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Thanks for posting this.

Nowhere did I say that we should not be humble before the creator of the universe nor that we shouldn’t give reverence due to the King of kings who invites us into his presence. I should have made that clear, and even though it is really nobody’s business, I genuflect before I recieve and do so on the tounge most times. The first time I altar served, I trembled when I approached the altar to purify the priests hands, and after the sanctus I just knelt there shaking, trying not to cry and to breathe.

But many people confuse humility with humiliation. Humiliation is loss of dignity. Humility is knowning your proper place in the order of creation. Real humility, knowing your proper place in relation to God, in relation to creation, and in relation to the other people around you can be incredibly liberating, and dignifying. Humans are the pinnacle of creation and God became man to redeem us, offering his life for us after we went astray. He loved us to the end… to the bitter end, and that means we owe him everything.

But in so doing, he made us a holy nation, a royal priesthood, a people of his own, adopted sons, who are invited to share in his divine life. Just like a Roman who was given the great honor of being called “A friend of Ceasar”, there is great dignity in being called a son of God and a friend of Jesus the King, and Catholics have the fullness of that sonship and friendship offered to us through our baptism and confirmation.

There is holy pride and great joy on the one hand, and compunction and a deep sense of gratitude on the other hand - and there is a tension between the two sides. As Christians mature, they get to a place where there is a balance between the two. Nothing is more cartoonish than the image of a carefree Evangelical praising Jesus on the streetcorner in a state of extatic joy. Equally cartoonish is the self-hating guilt-trip Catholic who punishes himself with a life lived as if every day were a Friday during Lent. A mature Christian however, smiles when things aren’t going too well, smiles when things are going well, is faithful in small matters and let’s God take care of the strategic plan, is at peace, and passes through life unnoticed by the world. His is an ordinary life lived well, with great peace and joy.

Groveling isn’t part of my life. I choose not to grovel. Jesus loved me enough to die for me and then rose from the dead so that I could follow him to heaven. The Holy Spirit dwells within me. God carried me throught he death of a daughter, drug and porn addiction, and a wife who walked out after seventeen years of marriage. And at the end of it all he sat me down in a beautiful parish, with lots of friends, in his holy Church, and invited me to forgivenss and healing in the confessional and to approach him and recieve him. Why should there not be great joy in that?

And he did it all without a single altar rail. 😃

-Tim-
 
maryjk said:
If everyone did it for years and years, some are going to start???

So we put in rails in all of the churches, and hope, years and years, down the road, some hearts might change??

Sorry, that doesn’t sound very effective to me. 🤷
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Well, I guess I would ask if you accept that something is wrong with the reverence and belief aspects of Catholics and the Eucharist. If you think everything is okay, then there is no change required.

If you think things aren’t great, then exploring things like altar railings and reduced use of EMHC would be indicated, as well as other things you might think of.
 
Well, if God is in the host, then why would you not kneel, given the opportunity and
ability? I think standing is just a fad that was exciting for about 10 minutes.

Now we have a generation of Catholics who don’t know what the host represents. The
demerits of continuing with standing/in the hand are now greater.

There’s been a movement towards making mass primarily a meal. You don’t kneel at a meal.
You don’t get told uncomfortable things at a communal meal. A presider at a banquet is
not held in the same awe a priest of a mystical order. See where we’re going?

You get to the stage where helping yourself to the chalice is normal and it doesn’t matter what the lawyers in the pews say: the fix is in.
 
PaulinVA said:
Well, I guess I would ask if you accept that something is wrong with the reverence and belief aspects of Catholics and the Eucharist. If you think everything is okay, then there is no change required.
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I am at a pretty conservative parish. I don’t that there is anything wrong with the reverence and belief aspects here.
If you think things aren’t great, then exploring things like altar railings and reduced use of EMHC would be indicated, as well as other things you might think of.
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Great? I wouldn’t call things great. But here they are not so awful that we need to construct an altar rail where there wasn’t one before.
 
maryjk said:
I am at a pretty conservative parish. I don’t that there is anything wrong with the reverence and belief aspects here.
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Well, I guess that shows the variation across parishes. I see quite a problem with reverence for the Eucharist. Polls show that a lot of Catholics don’t believe in the real presence.
Great? I wouldn’t call things great. But here they are not so awful that we need to construct an altar rail where there wasn’t one before.
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It’s not just an altar railing. I think there are a lot of things contributing to the problem. But, apparently the problem doesn’t exist everywhere.
 
PaulinVA said:
Well, I guess that shows the variation across parishes. I see quite a problem with reverence for the Eucharist. Polls show that a lot of Catholics don’t believe in the real presence.

It’s not just an altar railing. I think there are a lot of things contributing to the problem. But, apparently the problem doesn’t exist everywhere.
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It exists in my parish.
 
Tim,
This is one of the most beautiful things I have ever read.
Thank you so much for sharing this. :hug1:😃
TimothyH said:
Thanks for posting this.

Nowhere did I say that we should not be humble before the creator of the universe nor that we shouldn’t give reverence due to the King of kings who invites us into his presence. I should have made that clear, and even though it is really nobody’s business, I genuflect before I recieve and do so on the tounge most times. The first time I altar served, I trembled when I approached the altar to purify the priests hands, and after the sanctus I just knelt there shaking, trying not to cry and to breathe.

But many people confuse humility with humiliation. Humiliation is loss of dignity. Humility is knowning your proper place in the order of creation. Real humility, knowing your proper place in relation to God, in relation to creation, and in relation to the other people around you can be incredibly liberating, and dignifying. Humans are the pinnacle of creation and God became man to redeem us, offering his life for us after we went astray. He loved us to the end… to the bitter end, and that means we owe him everything.

But in so doing, he made us a holy nation, a royal priesthood, a people of his own, adopted sons, who are invited to share in his divine life. Just like a Roman who was given the great honor of being called “A friend of Ceasar”, there is great dignity in being called a son of God and a friend of Jesus the King, and Catholics have the fullness of that sonship and friendship offered to us through our baptism and confirmation.

There is holy pride and great joy on the one hand, and compunction and a deep sense of gratitude on the other hand - and there is a tension between the two sides. As Christians mature, they get to a place where there is a balance between the two. Nothing is more cartoonish than the image of a carefree Evangelical praising Jesus on the streetcorner in a state of extatic joy. Equally cartoonish is the self-hating guilt-trip Catholic who punishes himself with a life lived as if every day were a Friday during Lent. A mature Christian however, smiles when things aren’t going too well, smiles when things are going well, is faithful in small matters and let’s God take care of the strategic plan, is at peace, and passes through life unnoticed by the world. His is an ordinary life lived well, with great peace and joy.

Groveling isn’t part of my life. I choose not to grovel. Jesus loved me enough to die for me and then rose from the dead so that I could follow him to heaven. The Holy Spirit dwells within me. God carried me throught he death of a daughter, drug and porn addiction, and a wife who walked out after seventeen years of marriage. And at the end of it all he sat me down in a beautiful parish, with lots of friends, in his holy Church, and invited me to forgivenss and healing in the confessional and to approach him and recieve him. Why should there not be great joy in that?

And he did it all without a single altar rail. 😃

-Tim-
Click to expand...
 
TimothyH said:
Thanks for posting this.

Nowhere did I say that we should not be humble before the creator of the universe nor that we shouldn’t give reverence due to the King of kings who invites us into his presence. I should have made that clear, and even though it is really nobody’s business, I genuflect before I recieve and do so on the tounge most times. The first time I altar served, I trembled when I approached the altar to purify the priests hands, and after the sanctus I just knelt there shaking, trying not to cry and to breathe.

But many people confuse humility with humiliation. Humiliation is loss of dignity. Humility is knowning your proper place in the order of creation. Real humility, knowing your proper place in relation to God, in relation to creation, and in relation to the other people around you can be incredibly liberating, and dignifying. Humans are the pinnacle of creation and God became man to redeem us, offering his life for us after we went astray. He loved us to the end… to the bitter end, and that means we owe him everything.

But in so doing, he made us a holy nation, a royal priesthood, a people of his own, adopted sons, who are invited to share in his divine life. Just like a Roman who was given the great honor of being called “A friend of Ceasar”, there is great dignity in being called a son of God and a friend of Jesus the King, and Catholics have the fullness of that sonship and friendship offered to us through our baptism and confirmation.

There is holy pride and great joy on the one hand, and compunction and a deep sense of gratitude on the other hand - and there is a tension between the two sides. As Christians mature, they get to a place where there is a balance between the two. Nothing is more cartoonish than the image of a carefree Evangelical praising Jesus on the streetcorner in a state of extatic joy. Equally cartoonish is the self-hating guilt-trip Catholic who punishes himself with a life lived as if every day were a Friday during Lent. A mature Christian however, smiles when things aren’t going too well, smiles when things are going well, is faithful in small matters and let’s God take care of the strategic plan, is at peace, and passes through life unnoticed by the world. His is an ordinary life lived well, with great peace and joy.

Groveling isn’t part of my life. I choose not to grovel. Jesus loved me enough to die for me and then rose from the dead so that I could follow him to heaven. The Holy Spirit dwells within me. God carried me throught he death of a daughter, drug and porn addiction, and a wife who walked out after seventeen years of marriage. And at the end of it all he sat me down in a beautiful parish, with lots of friends, in his holy Church, and invited me to forgivenss and healing in the confessional and to approach him and recieve him. Why should there not be great joy in that?

And he did it all without a single altar rail. 😃

-Tim-
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A good balanced response.

I would conclude my remarks saying that an altar rail is not for groveling at, but a prop that can help many in experiencing that exact humility (not humiliation) which you speak of. However, if the interior disposition is not there, we would both agree that it is vanity.

As far as groveling goes, I agree with you precisely. I would go further and say that if you crawled up the aisle on your knees in this day and age, one may question your vanity since there are so many onlookers and it is so far beyond the prescribed norms and customs.

As far as corporal penance, many of the greatest saints practiced this, but did so privately, so I don’t think it can be poo-pooed outright. These saints would have been horrified to know that others knew of their private penances because they were humble saints. If a person decides to take on corporal penance today, that should always be under the direction of a spiritual director to avoid excesses, and it should be between them and God.

Thank you for sharing your own experience as a server. It’s good to know you have a healthy idea of order. If everybody in our Church knew the awesomeness of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and the call to holiness and evangelization like you do, we’d convert the world.
 
TimothyH said:
Thanks for posting this.

Nowhere did I say that we should not be humble before the creator of the universe nor that we shouldn’t give reverence due to the King of kings who invites us into his presence. I should have made that clear, and even though it is really nobody’s business, I genuflect before I recieve and do so on the tounge most times. The first time I altar served, I trembled when I approached the altar to purify the priests hands, and after the sanctus I just knelt there shaking, trying not to cry and to breathe.

But many people confuse humility with humiliation. Humiliation is loss of dignity. Humility is knowning your proper place in the order of creation. Real humility, knowing your proper place in relation to God, in relation to creation, and in relation to the other people around you can be incredibly liberating, and dignifying. Humans are the pinnacle of creation and God became man to redeem us, offering his life for us after we went astray. He loved us to the end… to the bitter end, and that means we owe him everything.

But in so doing, he made us a holy nation, a royal priesthood, a people of his own, adopted sons, who are invited to share in his divine life. Just like a Roman who was given the great honor of being called “A friend of Ceasar”, there is great dignity in being called a son of God and a friend of Jesus the King, and Catholics have the fullness of that sonship and friendship offered to us through our baptism and confirmation.

There is holy pride and great joy on the one hand, and compunction and a deep sense of gratitude on the other hand - and there is a tension between the two sides. As Christians mature, they get to a place where there is a balance between the two. Nothing is more cartoonish than the image of a carefree Evangelical praising Jesus on the streetcorner in a state of extatic joy. Equally cartoonish is the self-hating guilt-trip Catholic who punishes himself with a life lived as if every day were a Friday during Lent. A mature Christian however, smiles when things aren’t going too well, smiles when things are going well, is faithful in small matters and let’s God take care of the strategic plan, is at peace, and passes through life unnoticed by the world. His is an ordinary life lived well, with great peace and joy.

Groveling isn’t part of my life. I choose not to grovel. Jesus loved me enough to die for me and then rose from the dead so that I could follow him to heaven. The Holy Spirit dwells within me. God carried me throught he death of a daughter, drug and porn addiction, and a wife who walked out after seventeen years of marriage. And at the end of it all he sat me down in a beautiful parish, with lots of friends, in his holy Church, and invited me to forgivenss and healing in the confessional and to approach him and recieve him. Why should there not be great joy in that?

And he did it all without a single altar rail. 😃

-Tim-
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Thank you for the response Tim; however, I’m a bit confused. Do you see kneeling as groveling? When I read Holy Scripture, kneeling is always used during adoration, thanksgiving, reparation, and petition. Is it possible that kneeling is the sign of humility God asked from us to show that we know our proper place in relation to God?

God Bless

🙂
 
Question: I go to both NO and TLM but I feel like at TLM, I do one thing while at NO, I receive in my hand. To be honest, without the patten and being a tall person, I fear that trying to receive on the tongue while standing puts me in danger of the Blessed Host falling on the ground. Any thoughts? Should I stoop down to receive on the tongue?
 
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