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Polak
Guest
I never heard anything about Putin telling the Pope to consecrate Russia. Do you have a link to a source, or is it just something you think you remember hearing?
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Polak
Guest
I am not sure Russian Orthodox folks should take the Fatima messages as an attack on them. The message of Fatima is clearly aimed at communism, not the Russian Orthodox Church. It would be like being a member of the Church of England and learning that the Catholic Church has legitimised an apparition where Jesus or Mary state that England’s atheist direction is going to be catastrophic.
A) You probably wouldn’t give too much thought to what the Catholic Church says, since you’re Anglican.
B) Even if you did, you’d probably agree with the statement, as neither Catholics or Anglicans, even if the Anglicans are patriotic and love their country, would want England to become more atheist.
A) You probably wouldn’t give too much thought to what the Catholic Church says, since you’re Anglican.
B) Even if you did, you’d probably agree with the statement, as neither Catholics or Anglicans, even if the Anglicans are patriotic and love their country, would want England to become more atheist.
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Polak
Guest
Perhaps Catholics and Anglicans wasn’t the greatest example, but you know what I mean right?
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phil19034
Guest
Honestly, I think it’s because of what is going on now.
The USSR we highly involved with training & planting communist infiltrators all over the West. They placed some seminaries, academia, etc.
The USSR was playing a very long game of trying to seed support for Communism in the West, but they knew it would take approx 100 years.
The fruits of their labors back in the 1920s, 1930s, & 1940s are just now starting to come to fruition with groups like ANTIFA, BLM, etc. The fact that so many Socialist & Marxists today are willing to proudly proclaim their views instead of pretending to be liberals and progressives, is quite alarming.
In other words, the USSR purposely planned to spread their ideology across the West.
In regards to China, as bad as they are, they really not trying to convert the whole world to communism the way the USSR was.
Instead, China tends to use capitalism, international investments, and the UN to accomplish their global agenda. In other words, they use their buying power and the 1 billion people workforce to force corporations to cater to them.
I hope I’m making sense, as I know I’m not really explaining this as well as I could.
I read online voraciously and do not recall where, exactly, I hear everything that I hear. After you sent this, I searched for a source, and as it turns out, the sources I found are not ones in which I could place 100% confidence. So I have edited out my comment along these lines, so as not to be passing along something that is possibly bogus.
Putin may have said this, and he may not have, but for now, I am going to retract the claim, just to be on the safe side.
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phil19034
Guest
I’m afraid you are missing my point. The Soviet Union helped train & placed people Western communists on how to infiltrate Western institutions: colleges, the Church, non-profits, etc back in the 1920s, 1930s & 1940s.
Those devout, Western Communist leaders were trained by the Soviet Union have been working their long term goals ever since. Since they taught and recruited other like minded people themselves, they have been able to continue without Soviet assistance for many decades.
They were able to continue this because they were not Russian/Soviet spies, but because they were Westerners who loved the Marxist ideology and devoutly believe in it.
Dorothy Day was just one of the many people who discussed the activities they were involved in.
Eastern Europe had more direct Russian involved in the effort, but in the West, they relied more on training Western Communists how to seed a future revolution, which they believed would take 100 years before seeing any fruit.
Those devout, Western Communist leaders were trained by the Soviet Union have been working their long term goals ever since. Since they taught and recruited other like minded people themselves, they have been able to continue without Soviet assistance for many decades.
They were able to continue this because they were not Russian/Soviet spies, but because they were Westerners who loved the Marxist ideology and devoutly believe in it.
Dorothy Day was just one of the many people who discussed the activities they were involved in.
Eastern Europe had more direct Russian involved in the effort, but in the West, they relied more on training Western Communists how to seed a future revolution, which they believed would take 100 years before seeing any fruit.
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Polak
Guest
I understand what you’re saying. Russia actively tried to infiltrate other nations.
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chimo
Guest
The answer lies in the Church that has existed there for over 1000 years in Russia. The Eastern Orthodox Church in Russia has great devotion to the Holy Mother. Russian Orthodox saints can fill up the whole calendar year. When the communists had taken over this country they had systematically murdered millions of Russian Orthodox. Mary had come to plead to the Catholic world to pray for their Orthodox brothers and sisters. It worked as we see now the fruit of what Fatima requested through the hands of Mary. Russia is now free to spread the Gospel of Christ. The conversion of Russia in the Fatima message was this end of the persecution of the Church. The Orthodox Church has this rich history as does the Catholic Church so why not the Holy Mother requesting Catholics to come together to make prayers and reparation for their Orthodox brothers and sisters. The end of the persecution in Russia will mean the huge Orthodox Church will be able to witness to the Gospel and bring it in even to China and many other places where it could not when it was persecuted.
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BartholomewB
Guest
Does that explain why they met in Havana, well away from angry Russian demonstrators?
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JSRG
Guest
As long as Fatima has been brought up, I might as well ask a question I tried asking before but didn’t get a response to.
There were two, for lack of a better term offhand, “waves” of the Fatima accounts. The first was the original one when the kids told their encounters. Decades later, after two of them had died, Lucia wrote down memoirs that gave further detail, including the secrets of Fatima that had not been stated previously.
The latter I view as much less reliable. These were decades later and thus her ability to recall the specifics would be more strained, and perhaps even more importantly we have only her testimony; there is no opportunity to “check” it against that of the other kids. (also, if we want to look to the church itself, only the original account was formally given the stamp of “worthy of belief”, as Lucia’s memoirs were written afterwards) The problem is that the various summaries I’ve read that describe what happened and what the kids were told give no differentiation as to which parts were in the original account and which ones were only mentioned in the later one–outside, of course, of the fact everyone notes the secrets were only publicly stated later.
Does anyone know of any sources on Fatima that do this shifting through it and delineate clearly what aspects were in the original and which aspects were only stated in the later accounts? Or, at least, only describe the original account without the later additions?
There were two, for lack of a better term offhand, “waves” of the Fatima accounts. The first was the original one when the kids told their encounters. Decades later, after two of them had died, Lucia wrote down memoirs that gave further detail, including the secrets of Fatima that had not been stated previously.
The latter I view as much less reliable. These were decades later and thus her ability to recall the specifics would be more strained, and perhaps even more importantly we have only her testimony; there is no opportunity to “check” it against that of the other kids. (also, if we want to look to the church itself, only the original account was formally given the stamp of “worthy of belief”, as Lucia’s memoirs were written afterwards) The problem is that the various summaries I’ve read that describe what happened and what the kids were told give no differentiation as to which parts were in the original account and which ones were only mentioned in the later one–outside, of course, of the fact everyone notes the secrets were only publicly stated later.
Does anyone know of any sources on Fatima that do this shifting through it and delineate clearly what aspects were in the original and which aspects were only stated in the later accounts? Or, at least, only describe the original account without the later additions?
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phil19034
Guest
Yes, but that’s not what we are talking about. The USSR would train American communists back in the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s in the tactics used by Vladimir Lenin and the Bolsheviks
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phil19034
Guest
OP - btw, it’s also because Russia was the FIRST major nation to become completely Communist.
So it was their example and their error that spread
So it was their example and their error that spread
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JSRG
Guest
That isn’t really of any help for my question. I wanted to know what details were in the original account given and which details were only mentioned in Lucia’s later memoirs. This one is about the secrets (something I did know were only in the later memoirs), but otherwise doesn’t go into any real detail about what I was asking about.
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FiveLinden
Guest
I am not a believer. But if I were I would be incredulous at a report that Mary had, rather than making her meaning clear, had communicated in a way open to such a wide range of interpretations.
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Inbonum
Guest
Only Church has right to officially interpret Fatima messages (and every other private revelation). Sister Lucia also said that she is only carrying message and nothing more, she cannot interpret it officially. But she can have her thoughts about events, that’s normal.
Speculations are only speculations outside official statement.
If my memories are right I read that in book Fatima - Prophecies of tragedy or hope? By Antonio A. Borelli.
Although Sister Lucia continued to have apparitions even after Francis and Jacinta died those messages do not contradict any previous message and do not change any of 3 secrets.
I suggest you that book for better understanding of Fatima. It has many details and explanations.
https://www.amazon.com/Our-Lady-Fatima-Prophecies-Apparitions/dp/1877905283
It is not very likely that the statements will change after some time although it is possible.
Sister Lucia could write her feelings, impressions and thoughts in her journal but it doesn’t mean that something changes if parts of it are excluded from official statement.
Speculations are only speculations outside official statement.
If my memories are right I read that in book Fatima - Prophecies of tragedy or hope? By Antonio A. Borelli.
Although Sister Lucia continued to have apparitions even after Francis and Jacinta died those messages do not contradict any previous message and do not change any of 3 secrets.
I suggest you that book for better understanding of Fatima. It has many details and explanations.
https://www.amazon.com/Our-Lady-Fatima-Prophecies-Apparitions/dp/1877905283
Since Fatima messages have supernatural character (God is source of them) it is specific and leaves such a clear impression that the testimony of most visionaries never changes. I cannot quote now because it is from book.
It is not very likely that the statements will change after some time although it is possible.
Sister Lucia could write her feelings, impressions and thoughts in her journal but it doesn’t mean that something changes if parts of it are excluded from official statement.
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commenter
Guest
Better to say the Church is open to the fact that they may have supernatural character, and this is Worthy of belief, not necessary of belief.
There’s a crucial distinction between public and private revelation.
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Inbonum
Guest
That’s for sure. Supernatural character still obliges no one to believe
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commenter
Guest
Possible, perhaps likely supernatural character.commenter:
That’s for sure. Supernatural character still obliges no one to believe
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Inbonum
Guest
Fatima is under 3rd option - Approved - so it’s not ‘likely’ or ‘maybe’ supernatural but supernatural. It is worthy of belief because of constat de supernaturalitate and it is not necessary of belief in any case.
http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/discernment/index.html
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